Has the #Metoo movement made men more unsure how to relate with women?

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Many women I work with would NOT find a comment like this from a man as appropriate, and they would consider it as creepy, and probably harassment.

It’s really not that complicated.

I did NOT say that a man should treat women at work LIKE his wife or sister. I said he should treat them the way he would like to see his wife or sister treated by others.

I think most men would not want another man hitting on/harassing/exploiting their wives/sisters/mothers. Therefore, they should not hit on/harass/exploit other women.

People seem to go out of their way to make this difficult. It really comes down to don’t act like a jerk. Unfortunately people in powerful positions use that power to subjugate others. #metoo is simply saying enough!

 

[PetraG]

Just on a side note, on a comparative scale. Why are women so abhorred by sexual harassment, but yet not by the vice grips introduced into a woman’s womb (or a suction machine) taking out a human body (i.e. a human life in embryological and/or fetal development)? You got me too.

a) Many women DO see legalized abortion as an excuse to avoid charity towards unmarried mothers: as in, “why should we help you? If you don’t want the baby, get an abortion. Don’t ask us to ‘bail you out’ of your bad choices.” Never mind that the other party to the “bad choice” is long gone.

b) Sexual harrassment is all about UNWELCOME overtures and the right to require people to stop them. The right to decide for yourself what is and is not offensive to you does not make the issue an arbitrary matter any more than taking the Lord’s name in vain is OK just because you aren’t struck by lightning whenever you do it.

 

[Hgh0007]

Yes, I agree with you! I don’t think the me too movement is bad, I think it’s been a very good thing. All I’m saying is that “harassment” is a very broad term and it’s not as black and white as you’re describing. We can all agree on the obvious things, but to me a compliment does not equal being hit on. “Don’t act like a jerk” doesn’t always work. Even if you’re not being a jerk or inappropriate, someone could take what you’ve said the wrong way.

And I can sympathize with guys who may be unsure of what is ok to say or not say, because the ones who are worried are the good guys, not the sleezy ones. I don’t think this means we should back track any progress that’s been made, but I will recognize that there is some gray area.

 

[on_the_hill]

I’m only familiar with it in terms of workplace harassment, which includes not only sexual harassment but any harassment based on “protected classes” (age, religion, ethnicity, disability, etc.)

It was explained to me this way: “We all know what’s appropriate. We all know what’s inappropriate. We get confused in the gray area. Stay out of the gray area.”

 

[phil19034]

here is the clip you are talking about

is it immoral?

is it boring, silly & stupid; yes

What she did was totally improper and would be considered sexual misconduct if not harassment from an HR point of view. In corporations, sexual harassment is sexual harassment even if the person doesn’t complain.

A person in power (in this case, Katy Perry as one of the judges) should never do anything with a direct subordinate (in this case the contestant).

Regardless… she was in the wrong and the media would be up even more up in arms (rightfully so) if a male judge did this to a young woman.

Sexual harassment typically comes from a position of power. Historically, men often had power over women (and still typically have physical power regarding date rape, etc), however, with the number of female managers and attorneys now, women are gaining power in the workplace and are equally capable of committing sexual harassment.

For example: I was once at an office Christmas party where a female attorney told someone (right in front of me) that if I wasn’t married, she would be having sex with me in her office! It was very uncomfortable for me and technically I could have reported it. But if the roles were reversed, things would have gotten ugly fast.

God Bless.

 

[on_the_hill]

(and still typically have physical power regarding date rape, etc),

And therein lies the root of the problem. The specter of physical dominance never fully goes away. Of course there’s a double standard in these matters, because there’s an inherent biological double standard.

There is no question that a woman, whether a work colleague or supervisor or in a domestic setting, is capable of doing bad things in the realm of harassment. But in the vast majority of situations, the man is not physically endangered. Of course, you can find contradictions of that, and there are many men who suffer abuse.

Across the globe, men have the nuclear option.

 

[on_the_hill]

Long ago, for about two years I lived in an area with a large gay population. It happened a few times, when I was out with friends at bars or clubs, that guys hit on me. Most of the time, a simple, friendly, ‘no,’ was enough to get a guy to leave me alone. A couple times a guy would be more persistent to the point of being annoying. And once, a guy nearly ended up with a punch in the mouth.

Never once did I feel physically endangered. However, the realization hit me like a ton of bricks that women face these situations all the time, and each time there’s the underlying risk of physical danger.

 

[BoyGenius]

In the case of sexual harassment, she should be free of any compromising situations in which her ability to freely consent to sexual touch or even to non-sexual touch, is not hindered and is respected. In the case of abortion, she should be able to freely consent to the procedure, because it’s her choice again about what happens to her body and if the instruments are what are needed to rid her body of the pregnancy that she does not want, then that choice should not be hindered.

So it’s based on the rules of engagement?

 

[ATraveller]

I wonder how this thread is going to progress.

 

[Maximilian75]

Those shows are horrible… The Bachelor/ette in the US is similar to what you describe, and its horrid

 

[Xantippe]

So, gentlemen, has #MeToo made you more unsure how to relate to women?

 

[Xantippe]

Or were you already unsure how to relate to women?

 

[on_the_hill]

So, gentlemen, has #MeToo made you more unsure how to relate to women?

No. I haven’t changed how I interact with women. However, that’s because I’m so far in the other direction that maybe I could look at interactions from the opposite perspective and learn what IS ok rather than focusing on what is not o.k.

 

[PetraG]

Yet, abortion is welcomed by many women. But yet, sexual harassment is unwelcomed all the time. I therefore do not follow someone’s logic. Because, abortion is much more horrific than sexual harassment. And when you grant someone to take vice grips, a suction tool, or a saline solution to kill a human embryo or a child in fetal development to death, I am outraged. Thus leveraging the uterine chamber to offer a child in there to an act of death. For that is horrible. It’s a contradiction of justice among women. If you prefer abortion over sexual harassment. Then it’s disastrous and misleading. You allow a perverse occupation of killing, but yet turn against unwanted overtures.

I can’t buy that.

Outraged does not start to describe what I think of your graphic and libelous reply.

I didn’t ask you to “buy” anything. You have just offered a ridiculous excuse for sexual harassment that amounts to “some women do worse so none of you have any room to complain.” Did you think you were going to distract someone from the weakness of your argument by throwing in the graphic and distressing details?

Sexual harassment is, by definition, attention that is unwelcome. If the same behavior were welcomed, it might be a sin but it would not be sexual harassment. Propositioning a prostitute looking for your business, for instance, is not sexual harassment. It is wrong, it just isn’t sexual harassment. You seem to think, however, that as long as there are women out there selling their bodies or having abortions, it is A-OK to allow any woman anywhere to be talked to and treated as if SHE were a prostitute. Is it OK to rape prostitutes, too? Or do you think that is impossible on its face?

More to the point, where did you come up with this accusation that I “allow a perverse act of killing”? Allow? Where did you get that? Where did you get this idea that I have ever given the slightest tinge of approval to abortion? No, I was saying that people use the availability of abortion as an excuse to avoid charity towards women who WON’T choose it! You owe me and the other women on this board a serious apology for that baseless accusation!!

What is a contradiction of justice among women is pretending that the approval of abortion is something that has only women behind it. Were you so “outraged” when you found “pro-life” US Representative Tim Murphy solicited votes from citizens against abortion while he himself suggested an abortion to the woman with whom he had an affair and whom he believed was pregnant? Do you think he’s the only guy out there who thinks that trying to convince the mother of his child to have an abortion? Do you think that is no worse than any other kind of trying to solve “problems” by throwing money at them? Did you think that his behavior was some unusual circumstance? How many males are the ones performing the abortions? Are you outraged at them? Or is it just women who outrage you?

Since there are physicians performing abortions, would you say that you are outraged at the idea that there might be laws written to protect physicians? Why not? It would follow the same twisted logic.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

(and still typically have physical power regarding date rape, etc),

And therein lies the root of the problem. The specter of physical dominance never fully goes away. Of course there’s a double standard in these matters, because there’s an inherent biological double standard.

There is no question that a woman, whether a work colleague or supervisor or in a domestic setting, is capable of doing bad things in the realm of harassment. But in the vast majority of situations, the man is not physically endangered. Of course, you can find contradictions of that, and there are many men who suffer abuse.

Across the globe, men have the nuclear option.

All true, but typically, in the work place financial danger and career sabotage are bigger threats than physical danger. That’s where men can most be targets for harassment (and even false claims)

There’s a reason why most of harassment issues happen in work related environments (Hollywood, Politics, corporate offices, sales offices, law firms, etc). Power corrupts. And it corrupts both sexes equally, even if that corruption appears to be different on the surface… deep down it’s all the same.

God Bless

 

[Xantippe]

And it corrupts both sexes equally, even if that corruption appears to be different on the surface… deep down it’s all the same.

I hope you’re not victim-blaming.

If you are pointing to female harassers or female helpers of male harassers, sure.

 

[BoyGenius]

I didn’t ask you to “buy” anything. You have just offered a ridiculous excuse for sexual harassment that amounts to “some women do worse so none of you have any room to complain.” Did you think you were going to distract someone from the weakness of your argument by throwing in the graphic and distressing details?

I did not make an excuse for sexual harassment. You drew that yourself. I am asking those who oppose sexual harassment to be consistent in the wrong that something is. It’s inappropriate to touch someone in a way whereby it violates the dignity and respect of someone. And particularly as this article relates to women (thus the general population, inclusive to those who support abortion.) I therefore beg the question of judgement and character. Because, if you support abortion, thereby denying the unborn child//human being to be treated as you like to be treated, that is a contradiction. It violates the Golden Rule.And, it is contradictory to Justice, whereby you have the embryological or fetal characteristics of a human being (who is alive) being inappropriately touched and mistreated in away (to death) against their own will. And to just say it’s a woman’s right to choose to abort that human being (nonetheless the same outrageous circumstance of being inappropriately touched/mistreated - this violating the dignity and respect owed to that person.) That is hence a violation of Justice.

I find it not just hard, but as well as undermined by the contradiction, to defend the dignity of a woman, especially in the sphere of sexual harassment, who abuse another human being themselves or promote (And I am referring to women who support, promote, or commit an abortion.)

 

[Xantippe]

You drew that yourself. I am asking those who oppose sexual harassment to be consistent in the wrong that something is.

Do you see anybody like that here? Who are you talking to?

I find it not just hard, but as well as undermined by the contradiction, to defend the dignity of a woman, especially in the sphere of sexual harassment, who abuse another human being themselves or promote

Bear in mind that abortion is a very likely outcome of abuse or rape that leads to pregnancy.

Preventing abuse or rape also prevents abortion.

 

[DarkLight]

If we have to earn being treated with respect by being in accord with all the right actions, none of us have much hope.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. I sometimes wonder about how we talk about abortion. Is it designed to actually convince anyone, or just as a way to dismiss those we don’t agree with while showing how much better we are than them?

Lord, I thank thee that I am not like this abortionist!

 

[BoyGenius]

You seem to think, however, that as long as there are women out there selling their bodies or having abortions, it is A-OK to allow any woman anywhere to be talked to and treated as if SHE were a prostitute. Is it OK to rape prostitutes, too? Or do you think that is impossible on its face?

That’s quite in honesty, not true. You draw that conclusion. In fact, you are reading your own sentiments and opinions into it. Which I do not. You subscribe to that idea, which you are trying to pen as my own. Wherefore, I do not.