I’m not actually writing this for the benefit of you who have written falsely. It is for those who seek the truth to know, and have it available from really the only one who knows… the author.Me thinks she doth protest too much…
Well, whatever you do, do not create an enemies list, like Richard Nixon did.:jrbirdman:I’m not actually writing this for the benefit of you who have written falsely. It is for those who seek the truth to know, and have it available from really the only one who knows… the author.
Actually, one may wonder why you seek to accuse so much? What is the intent? Is there something you’re afraid of here if it is actually true?
Mighty neighborly of you SyCarl. I wish other Protestants would do this as well. It’s a very decent gesture on your part.I have the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I think that it is obvious that, as a Protestant, I do not agree with many things it says. However, when discussing matters about Church teachings I feel it only right to get my information from the source rather than from non-Catholics or Catholics who may not fully know the Church’s teachings.
We are sent by God our Father, just as Jesus had prayed that those who believe him would be sent.For instance, how do you reconcile the admonition by Christ that those who reject those He sent, also reject Him, and the Father Who sent Him?
From JPII’s general audience 1997:You might want to read the catechism again, or at least once. One of her titles is not co-mediatrix, but mediatrix. And I do not think the term co-redemptrix is even used in the catechism.
A little more reading of the catechism itself would lend you to a better understanding or at least an accurate one.
Mary’s mediation derives from Christ’s
- Among the titles attributed to Mary in the Church’s devotion, chapter eight of Lumen gentium recalls that of “Mediatrix”. Although some Council Fathers did not fully agree with this choice of title (cf. Acta Synodalia III, 8, 163-164), it was nevertheless inserted into the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church as confirmation of the value of the truth it expresses. Care was therefore taken not to associate it with any particular theology of mediation, but merely to list it among Mary’s other recognized titles.
Moreover the conciliar text had already described the meaning of the title “Mediatrix” when it said that Mary “by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation” (Lumen gentium, n. 62).
As I recalled in my Encyclical Redemptoris Mater: “Mary’s mediation is intimately linked with her motherhood. It possesses a specifically maternal character, which distinguishes it from the mediation of the other creatures” (n. 38).
www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_01101997_en.htmlFrom this point of view it is unique in its kind and singularly effective.
I am not sure Co-redemptrix is in the CCC. I do know it is discussed in Roman Catholicism. I think titles and a properly understood Mariology can only bring one closer to Christ.Co-mediatrix
Co-redemptrix
Queen of Heaven
The proclamations of Mary made by the magisterium:
None shall enter except through thee (Mary).
Doing that which cannot be done only by diety.
Did you know that Mariolatry was the first major heresy in Roman catholicism?I am not sure Co-redemptrix is in the CCC. I do know it is discussed in Roman Catholicism. I think titles and a properly understood Mariology can only bring one closer to Christ.
Are you claiming that it was the first major heresy stamped out by the Church or that it is a current one?Did you know that Mariolatry was the first major heresy in Roman catholicism?
I never new. What primary source documents can you point me to read? What group was practicing Mariolatry? What year did Rome snuff out these heretics? I will go through some of my history books.Did you know that Mariolatry was the first major heresy in Roman catholicism?
I understand that you, as a Catholic, have to deem many Protestant teachings as false teachings. That does not make them so. Neither are those sent limited to those sent by the Catholic Church’s Magisterium.Mighty neighborly of you SyCarl. I wish other Protestants would do this as well. It’s a very decent gesture on your part.
I have to say, though that you seemed to have formed your rule of faith on the foundations of non-Catholics. This would also cause you to perhaps not agree with the Catechism.
For instance, how do you reconcile the admonition by Christ that those who reject those He sent, also reject Him, and the Father Who sent Him? The Magisterial teachings are from those Christ sent, whether the Protestant rule of faith would teach that or not. This is where my concern is with what have to be deemed false teachings. They lay a foundation that unfortunately leads people astray, or perhaps often keeps decently gesturing people from the fuller truth.
Jesus chooses who He sends. He can call whomever He wants to send. I do not believe that call is limited to those whom the Catholic Church recognizes.“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
(John 13:20 NASB)
Didache, Chapter 15Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers.
Clement of Rome (Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 44)Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry.
Tertullian (Prescription Against Heresies, Chapter 32)To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine.
Irenaeus (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 1. Paragraph 1.)We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)For this is the exhortation of the Scripture given, that the man of God may be rendered perfect by it; without this therefore he cannot be perfect. You have the Scriptures, he says, in place of me. If you would learn anything, you may learn it from them. And if he thus wrote to Timothy, who was filled with the Spirit, how much more to us!
Well, I heard about it on EWTN. I searched the internet a bit but I can’t find a good source. It may have been before the church was centered in Rome. It goes way back. Christianity was most popular with women and they got together to offer sacrifices to Mary. Mary having given birth to a God was thought of as the greatest good news, they ignored Jesus, there were plenty of male gods.I never new. What primary source documents can you point me to read? What group was practicing Mariolatry? What year did Rome snuff out these heretics? I will go through some of my history books.
Well I am confident you can dig up a primary source document being that this was a major heresy in christianity. I am ashamed I missed it. What teaching in the Catechism on The Blessed Mother gives you the most concern?Well, I heard about it on EWTN. I searched the internet a bit but I can’t find a good source. It may have been before the church was centered in Rome. It goes way back. Christianity was most popular with women and they got together to offer sacrifices to Mary. Mary having given birth to a God was thought of as the greatest good news, they ignored Jesus, there were plenty of male gods.
Well, mediatrix of all graces, seems absurd to me…Well I am confident you can dig up a primary source document being that this was a major heresy in christianity. I am ashamed I missed it. What teaching in the Catechism on The Blessed Mother gives you the most concern?
You should know that Holy Mother Church distinguishes between Christ’s mediation and the BVM. The reason is that Christ alone has been constituted Head of the human race to regenerate men and to lead them to salvation. (Acts 4:12) The mediatrix of graces that belong to the BVM is different and of a lower order. It is called merit de congruo. It is founded on charity or friendship with God rather than justice.Well, mediatrix of all graces, seems absurd to me…
Well, thanks for making a reply, but I would never adopt such a system of convoluted ideas. How you find any of what you wrote as useful I have no idea? What does all that mean to you? What do you do with it?You should know that Holy Mother Church distinguishes between Christ’s mediation and the BVM. The reason is that Christ alone has been constituted Head of the human race to regenerate men and to lead them to salvation. (Acts 4:12) The mediatrix of graces that belong to the BVM is different and of a lower order. It is called merit de congruo. It is founded on charity or friendship with God rather than justice.
As I understand it there are other senses of merit (merit of good works), and (merit of becomingness- merit de congruo improprie). These senses of merit are of a lower order than the merit of Our Lord (de condigno) who is the principal minister of all graces. This would be another topic.
The Blessed Mother by her union with Our Lord had a share in the act of redemption. If we ponder what happened in the begining we understand that it was Adam and Eve both who co-operated in the fall of man. In order for the justice of God to come FULL CIRCLE, we have the Second Adam (Christ) and the New Eve (Mary), united together co-operating at Calvary to redeem man. This does not in anyway take anything from the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross, in fact the justice of God requires it.
No, SyCarl, I don’t have to simply deem them as false. They are false, and we simply recognize them as such. They are indeed false. The Lutheran church has no organic link that I’m aware of to the Apostles. That means there is none that Jesus sent.I understand that you, as a Catholic, have to deem many Protestant teachings as false teachings. That does not make them so. Neither are those sent limited to those sent by the Catholic Church’s Magisterium.
We’ll you can read Scriptures and Church Fathers, but you can’t tell anyone what they really mean, nor what the Church actually teaches. That is the problem with not listening to those Christ sent.Jesus tells us:
Jesus chooses who He sends. He can call whomever He wants to send. I do not believe that call is limited to those whom the Catholic Church recognizes.
When a Protestant becomes a minister, he does so because God is calling him to service as much as He calls those who decide to receive Catholic orders.
Authority to call can come from the congregation of a church itself. The Didache gives a guide to early Christian practice.
Didache, Chapter 15
newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
This would indicate that the early church selected their own bishops and deacons.
Similarly Clement of Rome indicated how the cergy were to be selected.
Clement of Rome (Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 44)
newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm
Clement says the clergy is to be appointed by the Apostles or other eminent men and approved by the whole church. He does not limit the eminent men to those appointed by the Apostles.
Tertulian tells us that doctrine is the test of a true church. It is not limited to those having Apostolic Succession.
Tertullian (Prescription Against Heresies, Chapter 32)
newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm
How do we know what correct doctrine is? Irenaeus tells us that doctrine is handed down.
Irenaeus (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 1. Paragraph 1.)
newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm
He tells us it was originally passed on orally but also that it is now handed down through the Scriptures. Tradition has been recorded in Scripture. John Chrysostom tells us the same thing.
John Chrysostom (Homilies on Second Timothy, 9, 3:16-17)
newadvent.org/fathers/230709.htm
If we need to know anything that Paul could have told us, we can find it in the Scriptures.
I use the word sent, because Christ used this word. If you believe in a false faith system, then you will not easily understand that which is true. For instance, you are not sent by Christ to be a Bishop or part of Christ’s infallible teaching institution. That’s who we must listen to. Christ sent the Apostles to continue His mission. The Apostles laid hands on others to succeed them in their mission, and so on, until today, and 'till the end of time. Christ gave us a Prime Minister to protect the Church from teaching error in faith and morals. The Church has never once taught error in faith and morals, and never will. Why? Not because of fallible men, but because Christ keeps His promise. However, He only promised this to the one Church He built.We are sent by God our Father, just as Jesus had prayed that those who believe him would be sent.
Why do you use the word sent? Do you know that experience? Have you been sent? What does being sent mean to You?
There are no doctrines of Mary that are in any way heretical. There is much ignorance about this, and derision of Christ’s mother because of ignorance. Mary is our wonderful Spiritual Mother, and there is absolutely no competition between Mary and Jesus. Mary always points the way to Christ as a loving mother, just as any good Catholic would to another. The angel Gabriel said at the annunciation “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” “Hail” is the greeting for a queen or king. No wonder Mary wondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then Mary goes on to say, “for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” All generations of believers, that is. Protestants should determine if this has applications to them as well.Did you know that Mariolatry was the first major heresy in Roman catholicism?
Whether you are consciously aware or not, you are saying then that you would never adopt the ideas that Christ gave us. This illustrates the danger of not listening to those Christ sent. The result is you therefore then are rejecting Christ’s teachings, just as you have done.Well, thanks for making a reply, but I would never adopt such a system of convoluted ideas. How you find any of what you wrote as useful I have no idea? What does all that mean to you? What do you do with it?
Well, I asked what you believe being sent by God means. Small errors in the begining you know…Whether you are consciously aware or not, you are saying then that you would never adopt the ideas that Christ gave us. This illustrates the danger of not listening to those Christ sent.