Have you read the Book of Mormon?

[Returning_Home]

I have a different take on polygamy- I believe that Joseph Smith was commanded to start it up as a way of preserving the saints. The Bible has the same stories where prophets had many wives and even concubines as a way to preserve a people- most notable is Abraham. I believe it was necessary as the Mormons trekked west and reestablished themselves in the West. It seems like everyone in Utah who is a 5th generation Mormon has polygamy in their ancestory. Joseph had to be the one to introduce it because the people accepted him as a prophet. Brigham Young would never have been able to get the support of the people and the saints would not have been preserved.
So I see it as a necessary thing that is no longer needed. It was officially declared illegal as a way for Utah to become a State and I think that was the correct thing to do and it had served its purpose by that time.
That being said the Church is amazingly open about Joseph Smith and his polygamy and I can understand why many people felt/feel he was a fallen prophet.

Yes, your take is different–and still wrong. You don’t have a lot of the facts about the situation, so here they are.

There’s no indication that there was a need to ‘preserve’ the saints as they headed toward the Utah Territories, especially given the number of immigrants coming from Europe, including some of my wife’s family.

Mormon polygamy is far different from Biblical polygamy, no matter how Smith tried to justify it in D&C 132, likening himself to Abraham.

Brigham Young’s polygamy has nothing to do with his leadership of the church. He was simply the strongest candidate, saying that he’d abdicate when Joseph Smith III was of age, which he never did.

It’s no longer needed? That’s funny because 132:4 clearly states that it is a ‘new and everlasting covenant.’ Since D&C 132 was first published in 1876, that must mean that ‘new and everlasting’ actually means 14 years, right? And if it’s no longer needed, why is it still published in Doctrine and Covenants? The fact is that celestial marriage, at that time, was one part polygamy and one part temple marriage. The church, when suddenly faced with losing polygamy as an official doctrine, was forced to redefine it.

Your assertion that the church renounced it to become a state is wholly untrue; the Federal Government passed a series of legislation to combat polygamy: the Morill Act of 1862, the Edmunds Act of 1882, and finally the Edmund-Tucker Act of 1887. The latter permitted the government to seize church property and imprison polygamous members, which it did aggressively. On nearly the very eve of the goverment seizing the church’s temples, Wilford Woodruff had the convenient revelation that the church would end polygamy.

Why?

It was a matter of survival, a prudent move, and the only one he could make. Even though the public renouncement of polygamy hastened Utah’s statehood in 1896, the church was still practicing it and during the Reed Smoot hearings of 1904, the topic turned to polygamy. The hearings ultimately resulted in prophet Joseph F. Smith being charged and pleading guilty of violating Utah’s anti-polygamy laws, having fathered 11 children in polygamous marriages after the Manifesto of 1890. This is the reason for the Second Manifesto, which essentially ended Mormon polygamy for good.

These are undisputed facts that you can’t whitewash.

Why, then, if God ordered his church to stop being polygamists, was the very head of the church engaged in exactly that? If the rules don’t apply to him, who do they apply to?

The church is open about polygamy? That’s funny because I saw the Larry King Live interview with Gordon B. Hinckley in which he blatantly lied about polygamy. Can you explain the reason he’d do that, please?

 

[Pieman333272]

Hey I just had time to do a quick search and it turned out I did stay at a Marriott. So, the founder’s in the LDS Church? didn’t know that. And its nice to see others who read it. Sorry for not replying for so long .

 

[PeanutBono]

Yes, your take is different–and still wrong. You don’t have a lot of the facts about the situation, so here they are.

There’s no indication that there was a need to ‘preserve’ the saints as they headed toward the Utah Territories, especially given the number of immigrants coming from Europe, including some of my wife’s family.

Mormon polygamy is far different from Biblical polygamy, no matter how Smith tried to justify it in D&C 132, likening himself to Abraham.

Brigham Young’s polygamy has nothing to do with his leadership of the church. He was simply the strongest candidate, saying that he’d abdicate when Joseph Smith III was of age, which he never did.

It’s no longer needed? That’s funny because 132:4 clearly states that it is a ‘new and everlasting covenant.’ Since D&C 132 was first published in 1876, that must mean that ‘new and everlasting’ actually means 14 years, right? And if it’s no longer needed, why is it still published in Doctrine and Covenants? The fact is that celestial marriage, at that time, was one part polygamy and one part temple marriage. The church, when suddenly faced with losing polygamy as an official doctrine, was forced to redefine it.

Your assertion that the church renounced it to become a state is wholly untrue; the Federal Government passed a series of legislation to combat polygamy: the Morill Act of 1862, the Edmunds Act of 1882, and finally the Edmund-Tucker Act of 1887. The latter permitted the government to seize church property and imprison polygamous members, which it did aggressively. On nearly the very eve of the goverment seizing the church’s temples, Wilford Woodruff had the convenient revelation that the church would end polygamy.

Why?

It was a matter of survival, a prudent move, and the only one he could make. Even though the public renouncement of polygamy hastened Utah’s statehood in 1896, the church was still practicing it and during the Reed Smoot hearings of 1904, the topic turned to polygamy. The hearings ultimately resulted in prophet Joseph F. Smith being charged and pleading guilty of violating Utah’s anti-polygamy laws, having fathered 11 children in polygamous marriages after the Manifesto of 1890. This is the reason for the Second Manifesto, which essentially ended Mormon polygamy for good.

These are undisputed facts that you can’t whitewash.

Why, then, if God ordered his church to stop being polygamists, was the very head of the church engaged in exactly that? If the rules don’t apply to him, who do they apply to?

The church is open about polygamy? That’s funny because I saw the Larry King Live interview with Gordon B. Hinckley in which he blatantly lied about polygamy. Can you explain the reason he’d do that, please?

what I quoted is my opinion and I never stated them as as fact or doctrine just my opinion on the matter. Yes the church is open about polygamy. Have you read the JS papers published by the church? It does not get anymore open that that.

 

[PaulDupre]

what I quoted is my opinion and I never stated them as as fact or doctrine just my opinion on the matter. Yes the church is open about polygamy. Have you read the JS papers published by the church? It does not get anymore open that that.

I find it strange that you claim the church is open about polygamy and yet many LDS have no idea that Joseph and the other early LDS had plural wives. Many vehemently deny it, even when shown proof from LDS sources.

 

[Holly3278]

I am not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints although I used to be. At the time, I did read a few small portions of the Book of Mormon but I am no longer a member and I do not intend to read it any further.

 

[PeanutBono]

I find it strange that you claim the church is open about polygamy and yet many LDS have no idea that Joseph and the other early LDS had plural wives. Many vehemently deny it, even when shown proof from LDS sources.

Yes many fail to understand the history of the church because they do not search Official church sources they go off of other peoples stories. Much Like the Anti-Mormon propaganda which is never the person who is spewing it own thoughts they just read it and pass it on. By way of fact Joseph had 30 wives this is all well documented in the Joseph Smith papers published by the Church. I Really am looking forward to everyones thoughts on Heaven that I posted. I am not wanting debate just to hear other viewpoints

 

[Through_Him]

I did not do the poll because I don’t even know where to get the book. Maybe at the library.
I have been doing research on my dad’s side of the family and there is some connection. Way way back. The history of the Mormons is interesting.

I don’t really have an interest in the Mormons but have trace the roots through the cite of the lineage by way of cousins. I have read some of the journals because the cite is more open now then it used to be. There was a lot of intermarriages like cousins marrying cousins .

If you read anything read the journals of the women. It is so interesting the life they led. They settled the east and the west.

I chose to remain Catholic, my mom’s side.

 

[Through_Him]

I have a different take on polygamy- I believe that Joseph Smith was commanded to start it up as a way of preserving the saints. The Bible has the same stories where prophets had many wives and even concubines as a way to preserve a people- most notable is Abraham. I believe it was necessary as the Mormons trekked west and reestablished themselves in the West. It seems like everyone in Utah who is a 5th generation Mormon has polygamy in their ancestory. Joseph had to be the one to introduce it because the people accepted him as a prophet. Brigham Young would never have been able to get the support of the people and the saints would not have been preserved.
So I see it as a necessary thing that is no longer needed. It was officially declared illegal as a way for Utah to become a State and I think that was the correct thing to do and it had served its purpose by that time.
That being said the Church is amazingly open about Joseph Smith and his polygamy and I can understand why many people felt/feel he was a fallen prophet.

This is a very fair and diplomatic post. But I don’t want to get into an argument about it but after reading about the history of our country settling the west, I mean any town beyond NY it is really tarnished and shocking.

What can we do not change history but can change the present.

 

[JHow]

again I see no error in this, if God was giving Joseph Smith the power to translate the book what style and language should he have translated it to? It seems very acceptable that the Lord would do it in a manner most easily understood by the people and that would be the KJV style as that was the most common bible at the time. If the verses were written too much differently the book would have been criticized for having a different style and therefore not of God.

Its not a matter of style - its the exact same words.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes many fail to understand the history of the church because they do not search Official church sources they go off of other peoples stories. Much Like the Anti-Mormon propaganda which is never the person who is spewing it own thoughts they just read it and pass it on. By way of fact Joseph had 30 wives this is all well documented in the Joseph Smith papers published by the Church. I Really am looking forward to everyones thoughts on Heaven that I posted. I am not wanting debate just to hear other viewpoints

Why do you think the LDS church says he is married to one wife, on their official internet site that is about Joseph Smith? This is all it says of his marriages:

“In 1825, while engaged in gold and silver pursuits in New York and Pennsylvania, Joseph Smith met his future wife, Emma Hale, and became engaged. The two were married on January 18, 1827. With Emma at his side, the Prophet Joseph would go on to serve the Mormon Church until his death on June 27, 1844.”

(I also think “gold and silver pursuits” is pretty amusing. Just say it, he was charging people money for using a rock to find treasure. )

 

[Javl]

Yes many fail to understand the history of the church because they do not search Official church sources they go off of other peoples stories. Much Like the Anti-Mormon propaganda which is never the person who is spewing it own thoughts they just read it and pass it on. By way of fact Joseph had 30 wives this is all well documented in the Joseph Smith papers published by the Church. I Really am looking forward to everyones thoughts on Heaven that I posted. I am not wanting debate just to hear other viewpoints

I wish that you’d understand that we don’t make these stories up. All of our comments are made and based on facts. These facts, in almost all cases, are provided by the LDS Church itself, the rest of the facts are provided by history. What we are trying to do is to get you to acknowledge and understand what goes on within the LDS, whose theology, teachings and history changes with the times and wind. If Smirh were alive today he would not recognize the LDS as his church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Esdra]

By this do you mean the RLDS version best represents the first edition?

Yes. The 1837 Version.
The Book of Mormon was first edited by the RLDS Church 1908. And since then they have revised it from edition to edition with the Palmyra Edition, the Kirtland Edition and the Original Manuscript written by Oliver Cowdery.

 

[LongJourney]

Here is the 1830 edition that I usually use: 2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/bom_main.shtml

 

[PaulDupre]

Yes many fail to understand the history of the church because they do not search Official church sources they go off of other peoples stories.

The LDS church bears much of that responsibility. Two examples:

Joseph and Emma: A Love Story

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young

Neither of these publications mentions, or even hints at, polygamy, even in the TOPC:Brigham Young section covering Brigham’s teachings on Eternal Marriage. Doesn’t that strike you as radically sanitized “history”?

 

[Returning_Home]

Yes many fail to understand the history of the church because they do not search Official church sources they go off of other peoples stories. Much Like the Anti-Mormon propaganda which is never the person who is spewing it own thoughts they just read it and pass it on. By way of fact Joseph had 30 wives this is all well documented in the Joseph Smith papers published by the Church. I Really am looking forward to everyones thoughts on Heaven that I posted. I am not wanting debate just to hear other viewpoints

And yet when we do use LDS-published and pro-LDS sources, you tell us that we don’t understand.

I own a set of HOTC that I bought on Ebay (for only $35!) which makes it clear that Smith talked to a “Jewish minister” named Joshua before going out to the grove to pray, then receiving an angel who told him all his sins were forgiven (another take on the Furst Vision), as well as stating as fact that Smith, in the Carthage jail, shot his pistol at his attackers, killing two of them (as recounted by George Q. Canon).

Can you address these accounts, please?

 

[Returning_Home]

what I quoted is my opinion and I never stated them as as fact or doctrine just my opinion on the matter. Yes the church is open about polygamy. Have you read the JS papers published by the church? It does not get anymore open that that.

That’s correct and I showed you that most of it was based on either misunderstanding or outright deception. How has your opinion changed in light of the facts? I’m curious how you feel about being mislead by the church about this.

If you mean that Gordon B. Hinckley got on national television and lied about polygamy being a 'limited practice" as being “open,” I suppose you’re right. This is clearly refuted by the fact that Brigham Young taught that only men who engaged in polygamy could become gods and the fact that D&C 132 was published in 1876, replacing the old section 101 that condemned polyagmy, as well as the fact that it’s still published, intact, today. The section still reads that it is a “new and everlasting covenant.”

No, I haven’t read the Joseph Smith Papers yet, but I’ve watched some shows about it on BYU TV. Once it comes down in price and perhaps paperback, yes, I plan to buy a copy. I’m going to assume it won’t include the different versions of the Furst Vison, being edited so as to present a consistant version of events.

 

[ShortyLaRock_82]

Last week, my family went to Hersey Park with my aunt. At the hotel room we were staying at, I found the Book of Mormon in a drawer and gave it a look that night. As to how it got there, I don’t know (I know about the Gideons but I don’t think they do Books of Mormon), but that is besides the point. I only read 1 Nephi and started on 2 before I went to sleep. So, out of curiosity, has anyone else read it? Just a book is enough to say you’ve read it (note:I’m not stereotyping the Book of Mormon. I’m just saying not everyone will be able to read it cover to cover).

The Book of Mormon is very anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant. I don’t buy into the idea that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon or that the Protestant Churches are the Children of the Whore of Babylon, as stated in 1 Nephi.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I’ve been trying to read it online. I wanted to order a print edition, but if you do, the missionaries come to your house to deliver it so I decided not to. But I’ve been reading it online (which I hate reading things, especially books, online). I’ve been trying to find a PDF or ebook version free to download it onto my Nook (Barnes and Noble has the e-book for $0.25, but I don’t want to give the church $0.25).

Anyways, you’re right with the whole “And it came to pass…” I recently finished 1 Nephi 1 (I’ve only been able to finish 1 chapter, that’s how much I hate reading online) and was pretty annoyed with “And it came to pass…” You’d think that Joseph Smith would be more creative.

And I have read parts of Alma and like that book. I especially enjoyed Alma 40:11-12.

I want to read more of it though.

Try Project Gutenberg. You wouldn’t be able to get a new version of the Book of Mormon, but you’d be able to read one of the older ones (50+ years old, or however long US copyright law defines public domain use), so you’d have to deal with Joseph Smith’s notorious poor spelling and some minor word change, but the gist of the text is the same. The Book of Mormon hasn’t changed much in 180 years.

 

[Onyx88]

Question ~~~ does anyone know of any short articles about mormonism? I just want to read the basic facts ~~ i know this has probably been asked and answered numerous times but i don’t want to take the time to research it ~~ i need it right away for something i’m doing

thanks

 

[Javl]

TO ALL:

The following is a link to a History of The LDS Church ( by the LDS ):

http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/Vol_1

and the following is the table of Contents:

             Volume I
 Preface
 Introduction
 Chapter I:         Joseph Smith's Birth and Lineage--The Prophet's
                First Vision--"This is My Beloved Son."
 Chapter II:        The Visitation of Moroni--Existence of the Book
                of Mormon Made Known.
 Chapter III:       The Nephite Record Delivered to Joseph--The
                Angel's Warning--The Work of Translation.
 Chapter IV:        Oliver Cowdery Becomes the Prophet's Scribe--The
                Translation of the Plates Continued.
 Chapter V:         Restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood--First
                Baptisms.
 Chapter VI:        The Testimony of the Especial Witnesses to the
                Book of Mormon.
 Chapter VII:       The Day Appointed for Organizing the
                Church--Revelation on Church Government.
 Chapter VIII: The Book of Mormon Published--The Church
           Organized.
 Chapter IX:        The Commencement of the Public Ministry of the
                Church.
 Chapter X:         Further Molestation at Colesville by Mobs--The
                Revelation Embodying the Vision of Moses.
 Chapter XI:        Further Light Respecting the Sacrament--Prophet's
                Removal to Fayette.
 Chapter XII:       Lost Books of Ancient Scripture--Commandment to
                the Church in New York to Move to Ohio.
 Chapter XIII: Prospects of the Church at the Opening of the
           Year 1831--Removal of the Prophet Joseph Smith
           from New York to Ohio--Doctrinal Development
 Chapter XIV:       Effort to Overwhelm the Church by
                Falsehood--Sundry Revelations Leading to
                Doctrinal Development.
 Chapter XV:        The Important Conference of June 3rd-6th--Arrival
                of the Elders in Western Missouri.
 Chapter XVI:       The Founding of Zion.
 Chapter XVII: The Apostasy of Ezra Booth--Preparations for
           Publishing the Book of Commandments.
 Chapter XVIII:     The Amherst Conference--The Vision of the Degrees
                of Glory in Man's Future Life.
 Chapter XIX:       Mob Violence at Hiram--The Second Journey of the
                Prophet to Zion, and Return to Kirtland.
 Chapter XX:        "The Evening and Morning Star"
 Chapter XXI:       Larger Views of the Doctrine of Priesthood
                Revealed--The Meeting of The Prophet Joseph
                Smith, Jun., Brigham Young, and Heber C. Kimball.
 Chapter XXII: The Prophecy on the War of the Rebellion--The
           Olive Leaf--Communication to Mr. Seaton--Warning
           to Zion.
 Chapter XXIII:     The Enjoyment of Spiritual Blessings in the
                Church--The Word of Wisdom.
 Chapter XXIV: Kirtland to be a Stake of Zion--Regulation of
           Church Affairs in Missouri
 Chapter XXV:       Preparations for Building the Kirtland
                Temple--Trial and Excommunication of "Doctor"
                Philastus Hurlburt.
 Chapter XXVI: The Plat of the City of Zion--Its
           Temples--Correspondence on Affairs in Zion and
           Eugene.
 Chapter XXVII:     Preparation of the Mob in Jackson County to
                Resort to Violence--Important Excerpts from the
                "Star."
 Chapter XXVIII:    Mob Violence in the Land of Zion.
 Chapter XXIX: Minor Events in Zion and Kirtland--An Appeal to
           the Governor of Missouri.
 Chapter XXX:       The Prophet's Mission to Canada.
 Chapter XXXI: Expulsion of the Saints from Jackson County.
 Chapter XXXII:     Remembrance of Canada Saints--Correspondence and
                Petition Relative to Missouri Affairs.
 Chapter XXXIII:    The Prophet's Sympathy for the Exiled
                Saints--Reasons for Their Expulsion from Zion.
 Chapter XXXIV:     A Press Established at Kirtland--Blessing Upon
                the Prophet's Family--Responsibility for Lawless
                Acts in Missouri.
 Chapter XXXV: Important Correspondence on Jackson County
           Affairs, Chiefly Between Leading Officials of the
           Church 	in Zion and State Officials of
           Missouri.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem