Having a problem believing in Hell

[vz71]

I did before, and nothing happened. There was a time when I was a believer, and asked.

Prayer may not have a direct answer that you expect.
The answer to a prayer may also be found with the changes it makes to the one praying.

I would suggest you keep trying.

Continued attempts would cost nothing.

 

[Spock]

Prayer may not have a direct answer that you expect.
The answer to a prayer may also be found with the changes it makes to the one praying.

There is some problem here, however. It is asserted that only an honest prayer “can” bring results. And that is impossible. I cannot “honestly” ask God to send me some “faith”, since I do not have “faith”. When I did pray, I was a child, with honest beliefs. Nothing ever happened. Why would anything happen now, when I am a cynical old man?

This is how I see the problem:

1. God may or may not exist.
2. If God exists, he may or may nor care about my “salvation”.
3. If God would care about my salvation he could send my the proper signs so I could obtain faith. Better yet, he could give me the absolute proof that he exists and that he cares about me.
4. To preempt a possible objection about me “free will”, even if I knew positively that God exists, and he cares about me, I would still be free not to worship him (which is what God wants - allegedly).

Therefore, my conclusion is that God either does not exist, or he does not care about me. If he does not exist, then all my prayers would be a waste of time. If he does not care about me, then why should I care about him? A threat of eternal suffering (whatever form it takes) is not a good method to obtain my “love” or “worship” or “submission”. That is all.

 

[Betterave]

Therefore, my conclusion is that God either does not exist, or he does not care about me.

If God exists, then clearly he doesn’t want to give you the kind of proofs you want. If He exists, he apparently wants to persuade you by gentler means - so you’ll just have to accept that.

But this does not mean he doesn’t care about you. *If *God exists, as vz71 and Exodus claim, then the patient encouragement and reasoning of people like vz71 and Exodus are in fact concrete instances of God’s care for you. That’s how God works in the Catholic understanding: true love of neighbor is fundamentally a participation/sharing in God’s love and is indissolubly linked to love of God. (If God doesn’t exist, then obviously their caring about you has nothing to do with God; but if He does…)

 

[vz71]

There is some problem here, however. It is asserted that only an honest prayer “can” bring results. And that is impossible. I cannot “honestly” ask God to send me some “faith”, since I do not have “faith”.

The only dishonest prayer is one you do not wish an answer for.

If you sincerely want an answer, one will be provided.

But you need to keep in mind something…God works on his own schedule, not ours.
He answers prayers where he wants when he wants.

 

[Spock]

If God exists, then clearly he doesn’t want to give you the kind of proofs you want.

Obviously.

If He exists, he apparently wants to persuade you by gentler means - so you’ll just have to accept that.

What other means? The ones you mention simply do not work for me. There is only one way to convince me. God is supposed to know that. God could take that route if he wanted. Why waste his “time” on using a different approach, that he already knows is ineffective? Isn’t God supposed to be smart? A smart person uses the way which works. At least I think so. My conclusion is pretty much the same. God either does not care “enough” to choose the method which works, or he is dumb to choose “alternate” methods, which do not work - even after being notified about it. Which one will it be?

 

[Spock]

But you need to keep in mind something…God works on his own schedule, not ours.
He answers prayers where he wants when he wants.

Yeah, I heard that one, too. Always blame the atheist for not being sincere enough, or being impatient, or “demanding” to get the answer which works for him.

 

[vz71]

Yeah, I heard that one, too. Always blame the atheist for not being sincere enough, or being impatient, or “demanding” to get the answer which works for him.

Who is laying blame here?
I am certainly not. I am simply telling you that you cannot expect a prayer to be answered in the fashion you want or in the time you want.

 

[The_Exodus]

Therefore, my conclusion is that God either does not exist, or he does not care about me. If he does not exist, then all my prayers would be a waste of time. If he does not care about me, then why should I care about him? A threat of eternal suffering (whatever form it takes) is not a good method to obtain my “love” or “worship” or “submission”. That is all.

The question is: if you truly thought that God does not exist, or that, if he did exist, he does not care about you, why are you here?

Why are you bothering about it at all? And since you are bothering (perhaps even bothered?), what would that say about God’s interest in your soul?

 

[Betterave]

What other means? The ones you mention simply do not work for me.

Not yet, anyway.

There is only one way to convince me. God is supposed to know that.

If God exists, and if your claim is true, then God does know that.

God could take that route if he wanted.

He could, if there is some such singular ‘way’… but that’s all counter-factual, it seems.

Why waste his “time” on using a different approach, that he already knows is ineffective? Isn’t God supposed to be smart? A smart person uses the way which works.

Well there is a lot going on here. We are all being tested and formed in patience and understanding (even, dare I say, love?) through this process of ‘gentle persuasion’. Those are things that God sees too and wills to have happen. Watching a universe grow, watching a plant grow, watching your child grow, each from its own intrinsic principles of growth and maturation - those are things which are good and beautiful and which have to be included in an evaluation of whether God’s approach is ‘effective’ or not. ‘Effective’ is always with respect to some end goal, and in this case the end goal is a rather complex one (which ultimately includes all of creation!), of which we only understand small bits and pieces.

 

[vz71]

There is only one way to convince me. God is supposed to know that. God could take that route if he wanted. Why waste his “time” on using a different approach, that he already knows is ineffective?

So what exactly are you looking for?

 

[PAboy57]

This has been one of the best threads I have read on CAF.

I am so impressed that several of you have shown so much patience in helping others understand our Catholic faith. May God Bless you abundantly.

I really sense the Mr. Spock is actually scrambling on this thread.

Dear Mr. Spock,

God loves you and he wants you to spend eternity with Him in Heaven. By the way, when it is all over with we get glorified bodies – just like Jesus had after His rising. We will still be able to do all the fun things humans do now – visit Paris in the blink of an eye, go horseback riding like you have been doing forever, etc. I’m not joking.

I doubt God is going to give out signs to everyone that asks. I think He has nudged you here so you can find truth. I would get out my Rosary beads right now as that is the Prayer of the Gospel and all faiths can find hope in saying it.

We also want you all to believe in the Holy Trinity and Jesus dying for us on the cross. We believe you receive the most grace in the Catholic Church because of the 7 sacraments and everything else she has to offer. The Blessed Mother will also help if you only ask her.

May God continue to nudge you in the right direction. God Bless.

 

[Spock]

Not yet, anyway.

Correct. Obviously I cannot know what my reaction will be in the remaining part of my life. However, it is very unlikely that I would undergo some radical change. I already “died” once, when my heart stopped due to a heart attack, and had to be dragged back, pretty drastically. It made no difference to my attitude. Then I had another heart-attack, and that made no difference either. I was actually joking through the whole process of angioplasty. So, you see, I am on pretty firm ground when I assume that only a direct approach on God’s part would make a difference for me.

The lure of an afterlife is not strong, especially as described. The threat of hell is not frightening enough. The arguments presented by the apologists are I find weak, contrived, contradictory and nonsensical. As a matter of fact, the presented arguments are not just ineffective, they push me further away from belief.

I keep remembering the wonderful Calvin and Hobbes cartoon, where Hobbes says: “The strongest evidence that there are other intelligent beings in the Universe is the fact that they never came to visit us”. Paraphrasing it: “The strongest evidence that there is no God is the fact that he never came down and kicked the living daylight out of the apologists for spreading such nonsense about him”.

So what else is there? The direct, and 100% surefire approach.

Well there is a lot going on here. We are all being tested and formed in patience and understanding (even, dare I say, love?) through this process of ‘gentle persuasion’. Those are things that God sees too and wills to have happen. Watching a universe grow, watching a plant grow, watching your child grow, each from its own intrinsic principles of growth and maturation - those are things which are good and beautiful and which have to be included in an evaluation of whether God’s approach is ‘effective’ or not. ‘Effective’ is always with respect to some end goal, and in this case the end goal is a rather complex one (which ultimately includes all of creation!), of which we only understand small bits and pieces.

This is all fine and dandy. I was told (by the apologists) that God “wishes” everyone to be saved. He does not “want” it, after all who could resist God’s will? But yet, he wishes. This is not my concoction, it was told to me innumerable times by the apologists.

Now, there are two possibilities, either the apologists are wrong or they are right. If they are wrong (meaning that God does not wish everyone to be saved) then this whole conversation is just blowing smoke. If they are right, then God does not “wish” my salvation strongly enough, to nudge me in the right direction. Yet, God is supposed to be agape. And agape is to act in someone else’s best interest. It would be definitely in my best interest to be saved. It would cost God nothing. And yet, God does not do anything to achieve it. Nothing, that would be effective. So where does that leave me?

 

[Spock]

So what exactly are you looking for?

Logical and reasonable arguments.

 

[Spock]

The question is: if you truly thought that God does not exist, or that, if he did exist, he does not care about you, why are you here?

I have several reasons. One of them is the recognition that I may be wrong. I am not arrogant to think that only I (and the other atheists) can be right. There may be a small chance that you are right and I am wrong. So I am curious, if there are any convincing arguments which I would find sufficiently persuasive to change my opinion. Do you think that it is a good enough reason?

 

[BobCatholic]

If hell does not exist, tne you have not suffered.

If there can be hell during natural life, there can be hell during afterlife.

 

[Spock]

I doubt God is going to give out signs to everyone that asks.

Sure looks like it. The question is: “why not”? What is so “bad” about using a “personalized” way of persuading the doubters? According to the story about Thomas, it would not be unprecedented. Yes, I am aware of the continuation about those who are blessed, because they have not seen, yet they believe.

I think He has nudged you here so you can find truth.

Possibly. So why doesn’t he give you (the apologists in general) the wisdom and the tools to present good, convincing arguments?

May God continue to nudge you in the right direction.

A two-by-four wielded by God would do the trick. I remember that Saul was on the road to Damascus and had this lightning to “nudge” him in the right direction.

Which reminds me of the joke about the old guy, driving his horse cart, with his wife sitting next to him. There comes a thunderstorm and lightning strikes right in front of them. The old guys mumbles: “Ahem!”. Then another lightning strikes behind them. The old guy mumbles again: “Ahem!”. Then the next lighting strikes his wife, and then he says: “Well, finally!”.

 

[vz71]

Logical and reasonable arguments.

And how are you expecting God to provide this?

 

[Spock]

And how are you expecting God to provide this?

Sorry, I meant that I am looking for logical and reasonable arguments from the forum posters. I might have misunderstood your previous post.

God has an open invitation from me at any time. If he is shy to come to me personally, maybe he could log on as a user, if he wanted to, and give all of us the fruits of his wisdom. He would not have to go through the process of application, the mods would have no control over his posts, etc… he could just enlighten all of us. Wouldn’t that be nice?

 

[vz71]

Sorry, I meant that I am looking for logical and reasonable arguments from the forum posters. I might have misunderstood your previous post.

God has an open invitation from me at any time. If he is shy to come to me personally, maybe he could log on as a user, if he wanted to, and give all of us the fruits of his wisdom. He would not have to go through the process of application, the mods would have no control over his posts, etc… he could just enlighten all of us. Wouldn’t that be nice?

I am sure it would be nice.
But do not be too certain that has not happened. I am always surprised.
I have found many times that a specific prayer is answered through the words another on this forum writes. Although God may not be the typist, I cannot help thinking God has influenced another to write something that means a great deal to me.

Perhaps I was not clear though.
I have seen several different threads you have participated in.
You are very skilled and clever. I doubt anyone will be able to mount a convincing argument for you. I am thinking action on God’s part would be necessary.

So what exactly do you want from God that would convince you of his existence?
What is the miracle you are after?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Spock

*I have several reasons. One of them is the recognition that I may be wrong. I am not arrogant to think that only I (and the other atheists) can be right. There may be a small chance that you are right and I am wrong. So I am curious, if there are any convincing arguments which I would find sufficiently persuasive to change my opinion. Do you think that it is a good enough reason? *

I fear the only proof you will accept is if God strikes lightening sufficiently close to you to excite your imagination.

Even then, it may take three bolts to finish the job.