He who endures to the end will be saved!

[guanophore]

Christ regenerates us spiritually. The Water Baptism is the external witness of what Christ has already accomplished and the joining to the Universal Church.

You will not find this concept of “external witness” anywhere in scripture. In fact, what we see is the opposite, that during water baptism, the HS washes the soul and regenerates it. The idea of “external witness” is a modern evangelical innovation that has become popular in the US since 1920.

Through the baptism of Christ Jesus, a believers heart is changed, the law that was once carried in the Ark, is now written upon the new heart, the Holy Spirit is placed within, and He causes us to walk in His statues. This is a better covenant than the one He gave to the children of Israel as they always turned and looked back into Egypt. Through the blood and water that poured from His side at death we are sprinkled and made clean.

Indeed! And the Apostles taught that there was only One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

“Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

The Apostles taught this is the baptism in the name of Jesus, which was never separated from the water, since He joined the two by entering into the water, and bringing the HS into it.

 

[guanophore]

The Holy Spirit does not leave because the Christian has been sealed with the King’s ring. The temple within is Holy and remains Holy for it has been sancitified forever more by the blood of the lamb, Christ Jesus.

The seal does not prevent us from denying Him (which is what happens in mortal sin). When this happens, we are no longer 'in Christ". The temple is holy only so long as the person walks in righteousness. When that person chooses wickedness, the temple becomes defiled, and it is near to being burned. God will destroy the defiled temple.

You may have heard the idiom,  "When the cat's away, the mice will play".  If the Holy Spirit had left us, we would not have a restrainer from future sin and the guide to lead us back to repentance. Instead the Spirit is actively uplifting and testifying Christ Jesus in our hearts bringing us back to cross.  Like a loving Father who watches over His children, if we disobey, there are consequences and some lead to physical death. We are still governed in this life by the laws of sin and death, blood for blood and life for life, and ultimately we will all some day suffer the same consequence.

You are right that mortal sin weakens the will and the conscience, so that the guidance of the HS to restrain from future sin is ignored or not heard. This is the effect of being a slave to sin. Jesus taught that the one who sins becomes a slave to sin.

The HS though is constantly calling us to return to God. This call will continue throughout this lifetime. Although, the more a person sins, the less he is able to hear and respond to the call.

Yes, we are governed in this life by the laws God has put in place. One of those that the soul that sins shall die (not just the body).

I gave up my will and cooperated completely with Him when I came to the foot of His alter and cried out. “Lord, have mercy on me a Sinner !” And it wasn’t just words coming from my lips but words spoken from the inner depth’s of my being.

And because I did, I’ve entered into God’s rest. Because everything I never had before He has given me, including the will to endure until the end.

I praise God for your awesome conversion experience Rocket.

It is my hopeful prayer and expectation that you, too, will hold fast to that which you have attained.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Remember how many years it was between the time David was sealed and he actually came into his kingship?

Saul recognized that God was with David even before He was anointed by Samuel. He would have had no such thought when considering me as competition to his throne. David was 30 years old when hegan his reign in Hebron for seven years so he must have been 37 before he was given the whole kingdom.

Even after all that God had given David, slaughtering his enemies before him, and placing him on the throne of the whole kingdom, David still was not satisfied and chose the wife of another man and positioned her husband to be killed.

Nathan came to David to charge him with his sin.

“And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.”

 

[elvisman]

I am saying like rocket has said that my baptism as a babe meant nothing to me until I accepted Christ when I was 38. My real baptism was then. Maybe yours was when you were a babe. Maybe maybe key word

That’s relativism in it’s purest form.
Baptism is Baptism. It is the washing away of sin and it doesn’t have a different affect on you than it does anybody else. **

Get that straight - otherwise, you have absolutely no idea what Baptism is.

 

[tweetymom]

That’s relativism in it’s purest form.
Baptism is Baptism. It is the washing away of sin and it doesn’t** have a different affect on you than it does anybody else.

**Get that straight **- otherwise, you have absolutely no idea what Baptism is.

Get this straight your words mean nothing to me God Bless

 

[elvisman]

People are not reborn because of a water baptism. Christian water baptism was not in existence when Jesus had his conversation with nicedemus.

Then what was Jesus doing just a few verses later in John 3:22?
MY Bible says that he and the Apostles were baptizing people.

 

[guanophore]

**And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. **

It seems that you believe that those who have been infused by the Spirit of God cannot later refuse to obey Him. Yet we see that 2/3 of the seeds that sprouted were lost, and we find language in the NT such as “fall from grace, make a shipwreck of faith, fail to finish the race, disqualified, thrown out and burned, cut off, temple destroyed, and blotted out of the book of life”. These types of descriptions do not support the OSAS innovation of the Reformers.

“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

… It is not about loosing one’s salvation, rather it’s about running the race!

They are not separated. However, I agree that it is not possible to lose that which one cannot attain in this life. Paul taught that the “mature” attitude is not to assume on has attained salvation, but to hold fast to what we have.

 

[elvisman]

Get this straight your words mean nothing to me God Bless

**And neither do God’s, unfortunately for you.
**Your spritual pride illustrates a living, breathing hypocrisy. **
**You claim to believe in the fullness of the truth, yet you reject so much of what he said.

 

[tweetymom]

**And *neither ***do God’s, unfortunately for you.
Your spritual pride illustrates a living, breathing hypocrisy.
**You *claim ***to believe in the fullness of the truth, yet you reject so much of what he said.

Thank you so much for your kind words, what a blessing Maybe you should read Romans 4:1 The only pride I have is in Jesus

 

[elvisman]

That was not very Christ-like to say you used scripture to insult a child of God? What Christian would do that? You should apologize to her; you just said people cannot read hearts then you do the exact same thing with that post and worse you used the Word of God to do it…shame on you, shame on you.

Hey - these verses speak to those who CLAIM to be of God and are instead false prophets.
I don’t know this person so how could I - or YOU, for that matter - make the claim that she is a child of God? ****She may be - but then again, she may not be. Same goes for you, me and anybody else. **
I am called upon by God to know people by their fruits - and so far, that’s what I see: False "truth".

 

[Rocket_Man]

Yes, we are governed in this life by the laws God has put in place. One of those that the soul that sins shall die (not just the body).

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

And **this is the Father’s will **which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[tweetymom]

Hey - these verses speak to those who CLAIM to be of God and are instead false prophets.
I don’t** know this person so how could I - or YOU, for that matter - make the claim that she is a child of God? She may be - but then again, she may not be. Same goes for you, me and anybody else.
I am called upon by God to know people by their fruits - and so far, that’s what I see: False "truth".

Thank you sir and your fruits have been very clear. God Bless you and A happy New year.

 

[tweetymom]

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

And **this is the Father’s will **which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rocket God Bless you and a Happy New Year dear brother in Christ. OOPs and your family too.

 

[SHW]

In your quest for perfection, do you do all of them?

To the best of my ability. And when I fail, I am saddened because I have offended God who is deserving of all of my love. Because I have sinned against Him Ephesians 4:30, I have not yet perfected 1 John 2:5 my love for Him Luke 10:27, John 14:21, 1 John 5:3 and so I repent of my offenses against God Luke 15:10 and I go to confession and I confess my sins to the priest and then Jesus absolves me from my sins 1 John 2:1-2 through his priest representative John 20:21-23. Next, I do the assigned penance Matthew 3:8. I also resolve to not do these sins again so I do my best with the help of God’s grace 2 Corinthians 6:1 to not ever get into this same situation again 1 Corinthians 15:33 because I do not want to offend God ever again.

John 5:14
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

 

[SHW]

This is in reference to accusations of misconduct against a person. The testimony of one person against another is not sufficient to prove the defendant’s guilt. Two or more witnesses must agree with the accuser in order to show proof of the defendant’s guilt.

Deuteronomy 17:6
Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

John 8:16-18
And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

1 Corinthians 14:36-37
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you (Corinthians)? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 13:1-3
This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 I have told you before, and foretell as if I were present the second time, and now being absent I write to those who have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare— 3 since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.

These Corinthians are not convinced that Paul was speaking the truth to them about the gospel in his two previous visits and in his previous epistle(s). They think that perhaps this is his own gospel and not the gospel of Jesus. So, the next time Paul visits them, he is going to bring two or three fellow Church leaders with him in order for them to testify to them that what he speaks is the truth. Paul wants to reassure them once and for all (by the testimony of two or three witnesses) that he speaks the truth to them.

Also, at his next visit, he will not spare the feelings of those who are now sinning again after their baptisms. He already warned them in his previous epistle(s), but they did not all heed his warnings, “that all persons who break God’s commandments after Baptism/justification are no longer righteous and so they will not inherit the kingdom of God” (unless they repent and obey until death). Matthew 3:8

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God (Baptized).

This is taken from the earlier epistle which we call 1 Corinthians. Some Corinthians that he had preached to on an earlier visit had repented and were baptized. However, in Paul’s epistle which we call 2 Corinthians, he is telling them that he will not spare any backsliders his wrath when he next visits them.

There must have been an even earlier epistle that was written to the Corinthians other than the one that we know today as 1 Corinthians as is evidenced by the following:

1 Corinthians 5:9-11**
I wrote to you in my epistle** not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person” (brother).

I missed a very important Scripture.

1 Timothy 5:19
Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.

 

[guanophore]

Christ Jesus Came Into the World to Save Sinners.

They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Testifying Himself that there were righteous persons that did not need to be called to repentance. Of Nathaniel, He said there was not guile in him whatsoever. And what does the scripture say about the parents of John the Baptist, Jesus’ cousins?

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

Kinda blows a hole in the Protestant interpretation for “all have sinned” does it not?

“Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.”

Being certain of the truth that has been taught to one does not guarantee one will be saved, either. that is why Jesus gives the warnings in Revelation. Do you think someone is saved when Christ removes His lampstand from them? How can anyone get to heaven without the light of Christ?

One thing I know for sure is if the righteous son was in charge over his Fathers house there never would have been a feast when the Father came home his lost brother.

Do you ever wonder if some Catholics read scripture through the stained lenses of the righteous son?

You know, I have never thought of this, but I am sure it does happen. I have met some Catholics here on CAF that refuse to accept the Church Teaching that our separated brothers and sisters are members of the one Church!

 

[guanophore]

I’ve had this challenge before and I’m sorry that I can’t agree with you.

I can’t think you mean that you disagree that the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

Therefore, you must be disagreeing that the gifts are given in baptism and confirmation, which means you disagree with what the Apostles believed and taught, because it does not appear to conform to your own experience.

I have experienced regeneration and know what it is like. It occured after I repented of my sins, and confessed my need for Jesus Christ.

Indeed you had a powerful conversion experience. It was the result of God’s grace at work in your life. Up to that point, you did not experience the saving power of His grace, because it was not mixed with your faith.

There was not the recieving of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit at Confirmation. I now boldly confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but not before my conversion. Jesus Christ was just a religion as green is just a color.

I beleive you Rocket. Most Catholics do not receive these gifts when they are given. They leave them unwrapped, often by the side of the road. Some of it is the result of poor catechesis, some poor example.

The lack of reception, though, is not because of the lack of giving the gift. I am glad you finally received the Gifts that Jesus gave you. :extrahappy:

 

[guanophore]

And I say

Indeed, you do, and in saying this, you preach a significant departure from what the Apsotles believed and taught.

1Co 3:17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

This is, by the way, one of the reasons that suicide was thought to be a mortal sin.

the Holy Spirit stays in the temple, because It has been sanctified by Jesus Christ. There is nothing biblical anywhere that the Holy Spirit moves out of the person as a result of mortal sin.

You are right, the soul is sanctified by the grace of Jesus, maintained in us by the HS. Mortal sin is that activity that pushes us away from God. We choose to repudiate the blood that was shed for us, and crucify the Son of God afresh.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Heb 6:7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
Heb 6:8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Mortal sin separates us from the blood that bought us.

It grieves the HS:

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Even David,  in the midst of his sin, desired not to be cast away from God's presence and feared that the Holy Spirit might be taken from Him. And do we not have a better covenant than he? Haven't we been sealed with the King's ring?

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

David needed to be restored, since he had fallen from grace. Had he not repented, what do you think would have happened? what would have happened to the prodigal son had he chosen to stay in the pig pen?

David writes about being reconciled to God, after his sin separated him.

Sin drives the love of God from us.

Rev 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

 

[elvisman]

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Like I said before:
**It is the will of God that ALL be saved, but this doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. **

The will of God is what he desires - but he DOESN’T force his desires upon us. You see God as a sprirual rapist who forces his love on us. That is NOT the God of Christianity nor of the Bible.

Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

---

Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

---

2 Peter 2:20-21****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

---

John 15:5-8
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."

 

[guanophore]

God has allowed it be separated.

I agree.

1Co 11:19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

Because the Church has abandoned the prodical son.

Can you explain this? It seems to me that the prodigal walked away from the household, not the other way around?

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

The Church does not teach us to avoid the lost, only the separated, only the unsound doctrine.

Why do you think so many sinners are coming to Christ outside the Church?

They do not. there is only One Church, and all who come to Him come into membership in his one body. The reason they come is that they are receiving the message of saving grace that is preserved by the Church. Even part of the message that reaches them draws them into His grace. There is no need, however, to remain with only part of the Truth.

And how is this to happen, if the Spirit has indeed left him? Isn’t he then left to his own power to find repentence?

No, of course not. None of us, by our own power, can come to repentance. The HS calls all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the Truth. He is constantly searching and looking for His own, to draw them to Himself. You are a perfect example of this, sealed at infancy, the Spirit of God sought you until you turned to Him. You turned by His grace.

This is not hyperbole.

Yes, it is. Otherwise the Apostles would be disobedient in using the term.

This is a commandment.

Yes, it is, but not in the sense you think.

Didn't Peter say, "stand up" or did he say he was the vicar of Christ?

Both things are true.

**As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."**

There is nothing wrong with showing reverence to persons honored by God. Most very humble people honored by God will respond in such a way.

And didn't Mary say: "**My soul doth magnify the Lord**"

Indeed she did!

Any honor given to Mary goes through the magnifyer of her soul and is enlarged as it goes to God. He is glorified through her.

What is it better to say, the Lord has bought you or look here your salvation draws near?

I don’t know? Are not both true?

I do understand! He doesn’t command what He doesn’t provide. Abiding is one of His gifts. So that no man can glory in His presence.

Right On Rocket!

And, just like all His gifts, it can be rejected.