Heb 13:17 describes the Sacrament of Confession

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De_Maria

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The verse in question, Heb 13:17:…

Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

…is a description of what occurs in the Sacrament of Confession.
  1. We submit to our Priest.
  2. We confess to them our sins because we acknowledge that they watch over our souls.
  3. They give an account of our sins to God when they pray for God to forgive our sins.
  4. We obey their command when they give us the penance which we must do in order to make satisfaction for our sins.
Its all there in a very concise manner. Protestants don’t recognize it because they have dumped the Traditions of Jesus Christ which are the basis of the New Testament.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The validity of putting another man in between Christ and God is in question. Yes, confess your sins before your priest or other elders of the Church, but to put forward the idea that the priest is then the mediator (pray God forgive you) is against the knowledge of Christ. For through Christ, God has forgiven you of your sins.
 
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Have you ever read that we are the Body of Christ?
The validity of putting another man in between Christ and God is in question.
How about those men who lead others to Christ?
Yes, confess your sins before your priest or other elders of the Church, but to put forward the idea that the priest is then the mediator (pray God forgive you) is against the knowledge of Christ. For through Christ, God has forgiven you of your sins.
Tell me what this says:
1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

and this:
1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Where does Scripture say we do not mediate for each other before God?

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
I think you make a very good point De Maria.

I do not this this passage is directly about confession, but it is, to me, one of those scriptural passages where we can read a secondary meaning into the primary meaning.

Our pastors do care for our souls, and account for them, in all their ministry, and we, in turn, must submit to them and cooperate with them. I think this is the primary meaning of this passage. However, the confessional is the place where this relationship is most direct, as you describe.

One mistake we sometimes make about confession, as we see in questions in this forum, is to forget that it is the priest who judges our confession and contrition, not ourselves. So long as we do not set out to deliberately deceive him, our confession is made valid by him judging it to be valid, and then his absolution is valid.
 
Thought these passages were relevant

Isa6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, [which] he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7 And he laid [it] upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even** so send I you.**
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
 
I remember when I was a kid, I had a friend who would play chess with 4 or 5 people at the same time. It boggles my mind and I must confess I do not possess this talent to address many scriptures put forward. Before we go forward, can we take a step backwards and ascertain an understanding of points of faith.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

If Jesus is the mediator and high priest, the scripture states clearly that we may (by no other means than by the mediation of Jesus, our High Priest and mediator) come before the throne of grace, boldly might I add and obtain mercy and find grace from God our Father.
 
The verse in question, Heb 13:17:…

Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

…is a description of what occurs in the Sacrament of Confession.
  1. We submit to our Priest.
  2. We confess to them our sins because we acknowledge that they watch over our souls.
  3. They give an account of our sins to God when they pray for God to forgive our sins.
  4. We obey their command when they give us the penance which we must do in order to make satisfaction for our sins.
Its all there in a very concise manner. Protestants don’t recognize it because they have dumped the Traditions of Jesus ay speak to youChrist which are the basis of the New Testament.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria
I can’t argue with your sentiment, but that verse, while it may speak to you could be argued to have little to do with Reconciliation.
 
Don Jackson, the scripture is clear and unambiguous. That through Christ and Christ alone, we have an audience with God. A sinner. Removed from God. A backslidden believe - separated from God. Desires only to be back in the presence of God. There is no other means by which man may come before the Father. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Why is this such a contradiction to any seasoned teacher of the scriptures. John 14:6 are not my words. Heb 4:14-16 are not my words. Neither am I the author of 1Tim 2:5, but Paul and the canonized scripture of the Holy Bible. This is of no personal interpretation.

Believe on the Name of Jesus.

Can there be any other way, are there any other means by which a man may be saved?
 
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The validity of putting another man in between Christ and God is in question. Yes, confess your sins before your priest or other elders of the Church, but to put forward the idea that the priest is then the mediator (pray God forgive you) is against the knowledge of Christ. For through Christ, God has forgiven you of your sins.
I think you have a misunderstanding of the role of a priest during confession.

Why don’t you read this passage…and answer my question at the end:

Job 42;

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

Question: Why did God not just forgive Eliphaz and his friends directly? What was God intending that He ordered them to go through Job to be forgiven?

Why did God order them to go through Job to be forgiven?
 
Pablope,

Question: Why did God not just forgive Eliphaz and his friends directly? What was God intending that He ordered them to go through Job to be forgiven?

Why did God order them to go through Job to be forgiven?

Let me ask you: why did God choose a High Priest every year to offer a sacrifice for his own sins and then another for the sins of the people and now your Priest do not offer a yearly sacrifice?
 
The verse in question, Heb 13:17:…

Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

…is a description of what occurs in the Sacrament of Confession.
  1. We submit to our Priest.
  2. We confess to them our sins because we acknowledge that they watch over our souls.
  3. They give an account of our sins to God when they pray for God to forgive our sins.
  4. We obey their command when they give us the penance which we must do in order to make satisfaction for our sins.
Its all there in a very concise manner. Protestants don’t recognize it because they have dumped the Traditions of Jesus Christ which are the basis of the New Testament.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria
Don Jackson, the scripture is clear and unambiguous. That through Christ and Christ alone, we have an audience with God. A sinner. Removed from God. A backslidden believe - separated from God. Desires only to be back in the presence of God. There is no other means by which man may come before the Father. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Why is this such a contradiction to any seasoned teacher of the scriptures. John 14:6 are not my words. Heb 4:14-16 are not my words. Neither am I the author of 1Tim 2:5, but Paul and the canonized scripture of the Holy Bible. This is of no personal interpretation.
Remote
Believe on the Name of Jesus.

Can there be any other way, are there any other means by which a man may be saved?
I don’t quite understand you outrage and indignation, which doesn’t seem to relate to my or the originator’s post.

There are numerous scriptural references for the sacrament of penance, all I am saying is this verse is not one of them.
 
Pablope,

Question: Why did God not just forgive Eliphaz and his friends directly? What was God intending that He ordered them to go through Job to be forgiven?

Why did God order them to go through Job to be forgiven?

Let me ask you: why did God choose a High Priest every year to offer a sacrifice for his own sins and then another for the sins of the people and now your Priest do not offer a yearly sacrifice?
John3…the question has nothing to do with the high priest. It has something to do with what God intends in telling Eliphaz and friends to go through Job to be forgiven.

In the passage, God bypasses the high priest…He tells them to go through Job.

So…Question: Why did God not just forgive Eliphaz and his friends directly? What was God intending that He ordered them to go through Job to be forgiven?

Why did God order them to go through Job to be forgiven?
 
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The validity of putting another man in between Christ and God is in question. Yes, confess your sins before your priest or other elders of the Church, but to put forward the idea that the priest is then the mediator (pray God forgive you) is against the knowledge of Christ. For through Christ, God has forgiven you of your sins.
2 Corinthians 2:10
King James Version (KJV 1611)

10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

2 Corinthians 2:10
New King James Version (NKJV 1979-1982)

10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one[a] for your sakes in the presence of Christ,

The 1611 KJV is exactly as Jerome translated from the oldest manuscripts available in the late 300s. What has changed since then: the truth, or scripture translations and teachings? Take a look at Nehemaih 9 - Public confession was the norm. And, have you ever wondered why Jesus gave the twelve power over sin? Binding and loosing. It’s all in there, but you must have a heart that is open to it. Remember that Paul wrote that he and the others on whom he had laid hands were “ambassadors of Christ”

2 Corinthians 5:20
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

Now, how are you reconciled to God? Through the forgiveness of sins, which Paul offered in the person of Christ - as Christ’s ambassador. They represent Christ with full authority, just as all ambassadors do. But, their job is on earth, while His is in heaven.

Tell me this: what sort of spiritual advice has God given you when you secretly confess to Him? Do you ever hear anything?

Have you ever heard “Your sins are forgiven”? If not, ask yourself why, since Jesus made sure that those whose sins were forgiven knew it (Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20). And, if you confess directly to God, are you not back-dooring Jesus? I thought He was your sole mediator?

What you believe is a recent innovation in Christian history, and was a teaching that became necessary among those who rejected the Priesthood that Christ founded upon the Twelve and Paul, and which the twelve and Paul passed on to their successors.
 
Let me ask you: why did God choose a High Priest every year to offer a sacrifice for his own sins and then another for the sins of the people and now your Priest do not offer a yearly sacrifice?
OT vs NT. Jesus is the new and eternal sacrifice, but wait! For almost 2,000 years, Catholics and Eastern/Orthodox Christians have joined themselves to Christ’s sacrifice, being parts of Christ’s Body. You can do that, too. Do not make the mistake of relegating Christ’s sacrifice to the past. It is outside of time and occurs, in perpetuity, until the end of time (and beyond). To Christ, to the Holy Spirit and to God, all are alive rather than dead, and Christ’s sacrifice, if it ever existed to God, still does and always will. Our salvation is not in history books - it is alive and active right now and forever.
 
Pablope, you didn’t answer my question. But I will answer both yours and mine.
  1. Job lived at a time and space we know not what. There is no indication that there were even High Priest in the days of Job. And so God chose Job, who was faithful with the intent and purpose of God by speaking the truth of God’s word, God chose Job to be the mediator of the sacrifice.
  2. The reason why your Priest no longer offers a sacrifice is because that would be anathema. For Christ is the perfect sacrifice and there cannot be another sacrifice after. The veil had rent in two when he died upon the Cross, the work is done and can never be undone.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

God chose Jesus to be that one, and only and final mediator. Will you choose what God chose?
 
Don Jackson, the scripture is clear and unambiguous. That through Christ and Christ alone, we have an audience with God. A sinner. Removed from God. A backslidden believe - separated from God. Desires only to be back in the presence of God. There is no other means by which man may come before the Father. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Why is this such a contradiction to any seasoned teacher of the scriptures. John 14:6 are not my words. Heb 4:14-16 are not my words. Neither am I the author of 1Tim 2:5, but Paul and the canonized scripture of the Holy Bible. This is of no personal interpretation.

Believe on the Name of Jesus.

Can there be any other way, are there any other means by which a man may be saved?
So, you are a Lutheran then? They use the same bible. Or are you an Episcopalian? A Methodist? A Presbyterian? A Quaker? A Southern Baptist? A Seventh Day Adventist? Any of the 3,000 or so other denominations?

They all use the same “clear and unambiguous” scripture and they all disagree. Scripture needs authoritative interpretation, otherwise “private interpretation” would not be condemned by the bible. Yes, it’s in there.
 
  1. Job lived at a time and space we know not what. There is no indication that there were even High Priest in the days of Job.
Please read Genesis 14, or Psalm 110: Melchizedek - Priest of God most high. Heck, read Hebrews 5, 6 and 7. He’s in there. The Judaic Priesthood did not cease until the destruction of the Temple in about 70 AD, well after Job.
 
Pablope, you didn’t answer my question. But I will answer both yours and mine.
  1. Job lived at a time and space we know not what. There is no indication that there were even High Priest in the days of Job. And so God chose Job, who was faithful with the intent and purpose of God by speaking the truth of God’s word, God chose Job to be the mediator of the sacrifice.
  2. The reason why your Priest no longer offers a sacrifice is because that would be anathema. For Christ is the perfect sacrifice and there cannot be another sacrifice after. The veil had rent in two when he died upon the Cross, the work is done and can never be undone.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

God chose Jesus to be that one, and only and final mediator. Will you choose what God chose?
John3…you still did not answer the question…what was God’s intent in telling Eliphaz and friends to go through Job to be forgiven?

And please, spare me your preaching. You at least gave a partial answer with #1.

I am not asking about high priests or sacrifice…it has something to do with God’s wishes…and intent…regarding our human nature…in why He told Eliphaz and friends to ask Job for his prayers to be forgiven.

So…answer the question…Why?
 
Now I really feel like I’m playing 5 chess boards at the same time. So let’s take this slow and please with a little grace.
2 Corinthians 2:10
King James Version (KJV 1611)

10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Paul is addressing not the elders of the Church at Corinth but the entire Church at Corinth. He is addressing their reconciliation with a brother gone astray and married his father’s wife.The man obviously repented and turned from his evil ways. Paul added his reconciliation for the in earlier epistles he was wroth. Though it reviled him, he submitted himself to forgive, and as he fellowships with God he is saying he is doing so in the ‘presence of Christ’. He is not taking a confession, he is not dispensing penance. He is forgiving. You too, (I don’t believe you are a priest) can and should be forgiving.

2 Corinthians 2:10
New King James Version (NKJV 1979-1982)

10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one[a] for your sakes in the presence of Christ,

The 1611 KJV is exactly as Jerome translated from the oldest manuscripts available in the late 300s. What has changed since then: the truth, or scripture translations and teachings? Take a look at Nehemaih 9 - Public confession was the norm. And, have you ever wondered why Jesus gave the twelve power over sin? Binding and loosing. It’s all in there, but you must have a heart that is open to it. Remember that Paul wrote that he and the others on whom he had laid hands were “ambassadors of Christ”

‘Public Confession’ my friend is the declaration of your faith in Jesus’ name. For Jesus said, whomsoever confesses me before men, I shall confess him before the Father. Tell me, what are the sins confessed of the Apostles? Paul confessed his sins not only to the High Priest, but to the King and to the Apostles and to the Gentiles, and … His confession was a witness and a declaration of the saving grace that found him on the road to Damascus.

On the issue of ‘Binding and Loosing’. This is the power we have as believers. If any two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. ALL sin under Christ is forgiven and reconciled, and debt paid in full. There is no other debt to pay. You, nor any man, nor the devil himself may stand in between me and the Grace of God.

Yes, we are Ambassadors, you and I both and all who believe on the Name of Jesus. We are Ambassadors if we proclaim the truth of God’s word otherwise we are traitors of the Kingdom, would you not agree? The word of Grace is this. Come all ye who are heavy ladden and I will give you rest, for my yoke is easy and my burden light. Come believe on the name of Jesus and you shall be saved. There is nothing that separates you from the Love of God…

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

2 Corinthians 5:20
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

Now, how are you reconciled to God? Through the forgiveness of sins, which Paul offered in the person of Christ - as Christ’s ambassador. They represent Christ with full authority, just as all ambassadors do. But, their job is on earth, while His is in heaven.

Tell me this: what sort of spiritual advice has God given you when you secretly confess to Him? Do you ever hear anything?

Have you ever heard “Your sins are forgiven”? If not, ask yourself why, since Jesus made sure that those whose sins were forgiven knew it (Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20). And, if you confess directly to God, are you not back-dooring Jesus? I thought He was your sole mediator?

My friend, not only do I know my sins are forgiven. But I know that it is only by Grace and if by Grace if I paid anything or did anything of my own accord, it would not be called Grace. I confessed my sins before God and received reconciliation with God through the blood of Jesus, the mediator between God and I. Justified not by penance, but only through the grace of my Lord Jesus. This is not the back door, but the front.

Does God speak to me? Does he not speak to you? I daily dwell in his presence. This is his wish for all his creation. God longs once again to for man to hear the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day.

What you believe is a recent innovation in Christian history, and was a teaching that became necessary among those who rejected the Priesthood that Christ founded upon the Twelve and Paul, and which the twelve and Paul passed on to their successors.
The Apostles are pillars no doubt. But listen to their words and you may hear a discord from what is Christianity today.
 
John3…you still did not answer the question…what was God’s intent in telling Eliphaz and friends to go through Job to be forgiven?

And please, spare me your preaching. You at least gave a partial answer with #1.

I am not asking about high priests or sacrifice…it has something to do with God’s wishes…and intent…regarding our human nature…in why He told Eliphaz and friends to ask Job for his prayers to be forgiven.

So…answer the question…Why?
I gave you the answer. And the answer is in the office of the High Priest AND in the sacrifice.
 
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