Heb 13:17 describes the Sacrament of Confession

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Now I really feel like I’m playing 5 chess boards at the same time. So let’s take this slow and please with a little grace.

The Apostles are pillars no doubt. But listen to their words and you may hear a discord from what is Christianity today.
From bible Christianity, yes. There are two huge and very old Apostolic churches that have not altered their beliefs or practices in nearly 2,000 years. There is solid reasoning and history behind both their beliefs and their practices. They are worth investigating.
 
Please read Genesis 14, or Psalm 110: Melchizedek - Priest of God most high. Heck, read Hebrews 5, 6 and 7. He’s in there. The Judaic Priesthood did not cease until the destruction of the Temple in about 70 AD, well after Job.
Please ask your scholars, when or did Job live or was it altogether an allegory. These are their questions, not mine.
 
From bible Christianity, yes. There are two huge and very old Apostolic churches that have not altered their beliefs or practices in nearly 2,000 years. There is solid reasoning and history behind both their beliefs and their practices. They are worth investigating.
Sorry Po18guy - I don’t know how to use the quotes and so I addressed your questions inside the quote. If you read it and separate out what was yours’, those are my responses.

To everyone, I need to sleep. I do hope everyone is full of Grace and Charity. Love the truth. Truth must be saught as the Kingdom of Heaven is likened by our Lord to a women who lost a coin and after having swept the entire house found it and you will rejoice as she rejoice. May the Lord keep you. May the Lord bless you in your quest.
  • in His service.
 
I gave you the answer. And the answer is in the office of the High Priest AND in the sacrifice.
Huh???

Here is the question/s I asked…In the passage (Job 42), …He tells them to go through Job to be forgiven of their offense.

So…Question: Why did God not just forgive Eliphaz and his friends directly? What was God intending that He ordered them to go through Job to be forgiven?

Why did God order them to go through Job to be forgiven?

So how does the High priest and Sacrifice have anything to do with God’s intent in telling Eliphaz and friends to go through Job to be forgiven?

What was their offense against God? And why did God not just forgive them directly? Why,John3…why?
 
Huh???

Here is the question/s I asked…In the passage (Job 42), …He tells them to go through Job to be forgiven of their offense.

So…Question: Why did God not just forgive Eliphaz and his friends directly? What was God intending that He ordered them to go through Job to be forgiven?

Why did God order them to go through Job to be forgiven?

So how does the High priest and Sacrifice have anything to do with God’s intent in telling Eliphaz and friends to go through Job to be forgiven?

What was their offense against God? And why did God not just forgive them directly? Why,John3…why?
Obviously, you are anxious to tell me why. So please go ahead.
 
“Our Father…forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” It doesn’t get much more clear than that. We forgive others, and then God can forgive us. God does not require a priest to forgive sins. Clearly He can do it directly. This is not to say confession to a priest is not valid. The quoted passage from the Lord’s Prayer is also one of the umpteen arguments against the protestant position that only faith is needed for the forgiveness of sins. We have to forgive others as well–we need a new, cleansed heart. We have to participate, by taking the action needed to be ready to receive God’s grace. Even the demons believe in Jesus Christ. But they do not forgive–they do not take the actions needed to cleanse the heart to receive Grace. So Catholics are not completely right, and neither are protestants.
 
Please ask your scholars, when or did Job live or was it altogether an allegory. These are their questions, not mine.
We do not have Job’s bones, or his crypt, so we must surmise that he is a historical character. What we do know is that scripture teaches a principle in he Book of Job. An eternal principle that was true even before pen was set to papyrus. This book is an example of the scriptures which contain history, poetry, allegory, simile, parable, irony, prophecy and much more. But, the principles it teaches, in each case, are absolute. However, and this is a huge however, scripture must be authoritatively interpreted. Saint Peter (the Apostle Peter) noted that many people twisted the scriptures to their own destruction. Now, he was not speaking of immediate destruction, but their ultimate destiny, as many of the early heretics, and their ideas, outlived Peter.
 
Now I really feel like I’m playing 5 chess boards at the same time. So let’s take this slow and please with a little grace.

The Apostles are pillars no doubt. But listen to their words and you may hear a discord from what is Christianity today.
Do you think that the faith would have survived 2,000 years without “pillars”? The Apostles, certainly, but just as Matthias was chosen to follow Judas, so have successors been chosen to each of them.
 
The validity of putting another man in between Christ and God is in question
What a strange way to look at priestly ministry. No wonder you can’t understand it. Google “in persona Christi”, read for content, reflect, and then ask yourself if that is “in between Christ and God”.
 
Pablope,

Question: Why did God not just forgive Eliphaz and his friends directly? What was God intending that He ordered them to go through Job to be forgiven?

Why did God order them to go through Job to be forgiven?
Were you never taught that it is not polite to answer a question with a question?

As for your question, here is the answer.
Let me ask you: why did God choose a High Priest every year to offer a sacrifice for his own sins and then another for the sins of the people and now your Priest do not offer a yearly sacrifice?
All the sacrifices of the Old Testament foreshadowed the one Sacrifice of Jesus Christ FOR ALL TIME.

The Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is for all years, past, present and future. And He commands that you participate in that sacrifice in order to do this in remembrance of Him.

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

But you disobey His Word.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
I remember when I was a kid, I had a friend who would play chess with 4 or 5 people at the same time. It boggles my mind and I must confess I do not possess this talent to address many scriptures put forward. Before we go forward, can we take a step backwards and ascertain an understanding of points of faith.
Sure.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
If Jesus is the mediator and high priest, the scripture states clearly that we may (by no other means than by the mediation of Jesus, our High Priest and mediator) come before the throne of grace, boldly might I add and obtain mercy and find grace from God our Father.
That is a misunderstanding which Protestants have of that Scripture.

Scripture does not contradict itself.

1st. Scripture tells us to mediate for our fellow man in many places. But, although, only one is necessary in order to prove your understanding wrong, I will provide three:

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

If that is the case then, that we must all make intercessions for all mankind, then we are all mediators.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

2nd. So, why is Christ called the sole Mediator? Because it is Christ who mediated the New Testament.

Listen to the Word of God:

Galatians 3:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Who mediated the Law? Who mediated the Old Testament? It was Moses. This verse is about Moses mediating the Old Testament. And it is comparing Moses, the sole mediator of the Old Testament to Jesus, the Sole Mediator of the New.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Hebrews 8:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

To conclude, if you pray for anyone else, then you are mediating between them and God. And by your actions you are contradicting your professed belief that Christ is the Sole Mediator in every respect.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
“Our Father…forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” It doesn’t get much more clear than that. We forgive others, and then God can forgive us. God does not require a priest to forgive sins. Clearly He can do it directly. This is not to say confession to a priest is not valid. The quoted passage from the Lord’s Prayer is also one of the umpteen arguments against the protestant position that only faith is needed for the forgiveness of sins. We have to forgive others as well–we need a new, cleansed heart. We have to participate, by taking the action needed to be ready to receive God’s grace. Even the demons believe in Jesus Christ. But they do not forgive–they do not take the actions needed to cleanse the heart to receive Grace. So Catholics are not completely right, and neither are protestants.
But the Catholic Church is infallible and teaches the Wisdom of God even in the heavens (Eph 3:10).
 
OT vs NT. Jesus is the new and eternal sacrifice, but wait! For almost 2,000 years, Catholics and Eastern/Orthodox Christians have joined themselves to Christ’s sacrifice, being parts of Christ’s Body. You can do that, too. Do not make the mistake of relegating Christ’s sacrifice to the past. It is outside of time and occurs, in perpetuity, until the end of time (and beyond). To Christ, to the Holy Spirit and to God, all are alive rather than dead, and Christ’s sacrifice, if it ever existed to God, still does and always will. Our salvation is not in history books - it is alive and active right now and forever.
Absolutely True. That is why, as you probably already know, the Lamb is standing as though slain before the Father in heaven.

Because, Christ, the Lamb of God perpetually offers Himself to the Father. He is our Passover, and therefore we must keep the feast:
1 Corinthians 5:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

How does one keep the Passover feast? By eating the Lamb:
Exodus 12:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
Sorry Po18guy - I don’t know how to use the quotes and so I addressed your questions inside the quote. If you read it and separate out what was yours’, those are my responses.

To everyone, I need to sleep. I do hope everyone is full of Grace and Charity. Love the truth. Truth must be saught as the Kingdom of Heaven is likened by our Lord to a women who lost a coin and after having swept the entire house found it and you will rejoice as she rejoice. May the Lord keep you. May the Lord bless you in your quest.
That is probably why God has sent you here. So that you may find what you seek. The truth which only God speaks and which He speaks perfectly through His Church, the Catholic Church (Eph 3:10).
  • in His service.
May we always remain,

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
I can’t argue with your sentiment, but that verse, while it may speak to you could be argued to have little to do with Reconciliation.
Anything an be argued against. But looked at in light of the Tradtion of the Catholic Church as instructed that we should in the Catechism, it is clearly a teaching about the Sacrament of Reconciliation:

113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
So, you are a Lutheran then? They use the same bible. Or are you an Episcopalian? A Methodist? A Presbyterian? A Quaker? A Southern Baptist? A Seventh Day Adventist? Any of the 3,000 or so other denominations?

They all use the same “clear and unambiguous” scripture and they all disagree. Scripture needs authoritative interpretation, otherwise “private interpretation” would not be condemned by the bible. Yes, it’s in there.
Yes, scripture does need authorattive interpretation. Private interpretation is not condemned, and Catholics are not prohibited from engaging in it, asde Maria has done here. This understanding of the passage cited in the title is a private interpretation. Several posters have stated that they do not see what you see in it. However, as long as it does not contradict what the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches, it is not problematic.

Scripture states that it “is not a matter of private interpretation”, which means that the HS had a purpose and meaning when the scripture was inspired, and that we cannot depart from it. Your private interpretation is not a departure, though it may be a little peculiar, there isThis thing about it that contradicts what the Apostles believed and taught.

The faithful are encouraged to do what de Maria has done here, which is to read, pray, and study the Scriptures and apply them to our lives.
 
Don Jackson, the scripture is clear and unambiguous.
Post one.
That through Christ and Christ alone, we have an audience with God.
And through whom do we get to Christ?
A sinner. Removed from God. A backslidden believe - separated from God. Desires only to be back in the presence of God. There is no other means by which man may come before the Father.
But how does one come to Christ? Let me show you:
Matthew 9
King James Version (KJV)
1 And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city.

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Tell me again that no one can be a mediator between God and man?
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Why is this such a contradiction to any seasoned teacher of the scriptures.
It is not a contradiction. But tell me, can we intercede between God and man? Are we instructed to make intercessions or no?

1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

I’ll let you in on a little secret. You are not a seasoned teacher of Scripture. You are a seasoned teacher of the traditions of men known as Protestantism. You do not teach the Scriptures. Or if you do, you do not teach them correctly. But remain on this forum and you will learn. Perhaps that is why God has sent you here.
John 14:6 are not my words. Heb 4:14-16 are not my words. Neither am I the author of 1Tim 2:5, but Paul and the canonized scripture of the Holy Bible. This is of no personal interpretation.
John 14:6 is the Word of God. Heb 4:14-17 is the Word of God. Nor are you the author of 1 Tim 2:5. But your personal interpretation of those verses is WRONG.
Believe on the Name of Jesus.
We do. That is why we obey Him and keep His Commandments.

John 14:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Can there be any other way, are there any other means by which a man may be saved?
Let’s see:
  1. By obedience as we see above.
  2. By love as we also see above.
  3. By the assistance of his friends:
    James 5:20
    Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
  4. By following the faith of those who teach us the Word of God:
    Hebrews 13:7
    Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
  5. By keeping the Commandments Rev 22:13-15
    By doing the works of God Matt 25:31-46.
etc. etc.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
I don’t quite understand you outrage and indignation, which doesn’t seem to relate to my or the originator’s post.

There are numerous scriptural references for the sacrament of penance, all I am saying is this verse is not one of them.
Yeah, although this is not one of the more explicit verses. It describes the procedure of the Sacrament. Anyone who knows the Traditons of the Church will see there the Sacrament described.
 
…Private interpretation is not condemned,…
Yes, it is.

Catholics are prohibited in private interpretation. Private interpretation means that one comes to a conclusion which is opposed to the Teaching of the Catholic Church.

Read the Catechism:
113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
Code:
Yes, it is.
Catholics are prohibited in private interpretation. Private interpretation means that one comes to a conclusion which is opposed to the Teaching of the Catholic Church.
Where did you get this definition? I think what you have done here is a private interpretation. I think it might be more accurate to say that there are boundaries around private interpretation. If that is what you mean by “prohibited” then we are in agreement.
Code:
Read the Catechism:
113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

Sincerely,

De Maria
There is nothing here in your private interpetation of this verse that contradicts what is written in the catechism.
 
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