Hell and everlasting punishment

[ahimsaman72]

itsjustdave1988:

Exporter,

ahimsaman72 is a Catholic trapped in a Southern Baptists body

Thanks - I needed that!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

ahimsaman72,

Can you also address why St. John’s vision completely lacks a “resoration”? If I’m to believe the Universalists claims, there seems to be a chapter missing from the Apocalypse.

Even if you believe the “lake of fire” to be figurative, what is it a figure of? Punishment, right? The last we hear of the wicked in St. John’s version of events is when they are cast into the lake of fire forever and ever. Where’s the rest of the story? Where does it say that these who were cast into the fire will be restored with God, to include the devil, his demons, the false prophets and their followers?

 

[ahimsaman72]

Exporter:

Excuse me boys, but this thread has gotten far from the original post.
"The doctrine of Hell and everlasting punishment is controversial to be sure. There are basically three views of the fate of the wicked:

1. Everlasting punishment
2. Annihilation
3. Purification and restoration of all mankind"

See Catechism of the Catholic Church , 1033, 1861, 1037,1034 & 1036. The Doctrine of hell is not controversial at all. It is forever, there is no annihilation or retoration of all mankind. No, once in hell you stay in hell. What is the authority? The CCC, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger is the imprinture.

To the contrary, friend, it has been controversial in the past and obviously is today.

Again, I understand the Catechism’s “infallible” teaching. I accept that it is how the Catholic Church views it. I do not accept it as my teaching.

Doesn’t it seem rather odd that God would create a people - allow them to fall from grace - punish them (justly) for it - but then consign them to an eternity in a place called hell where they will be tormented day and night without end when their crime or rebellion lasted a mere 70+ years? In earlier times the age at death was much lower - say 30+ years. (of course, in Scriptures it is clear that people like Methusaleh lived to be 969 years old). And then, it is clear by looking at the successive generations, that since the flood the age at death became lower and lower.

 

[mercygate]

itsjustdave1988:

ahimsaman72 is a Catholic trapped in a Southern Baptists body

Right, Dave. He even has a sense of humor to prove it! :bounce:

 

[ahimsaman72]

itsjustdave1988:

ahimsaman72,

Can you also address why St. John’s vision completely lacks a “resoration”? If I’m to believe the Universalists claims, there seems to be a chapter missing from the Apocalypse.

Even if you believe the “lake of fire” to be figurative, what is it a figure of? Punishment, right? The last we hear of the wicked in St. John’s version of events is when they are cast into the lake of fire forever and ever. Where’s the rest of the story? Where does it say that these who were cast into the fire will be restored with God, to include the devil, his demons, the false prophets and their followers?

I simply cannot answer why St. John’s vision lacked a clear presentation of the “restoration”. I can say that hell is never mentioned in his gospel. So, what does that tell us? He gives us plenty of details about Christ and salvation in his gospel of Christ, and in his apocalyptic writing he mentions some form of “hell” 4 times. Again, the English word “hell” is not a fitting word. The concept we have in our minds of the English word hell is grossly different than the meaning of the Greek words it was translated from. The four times hell is mentioned in Revelation it is not a physical place of fiery, eternal punishing. Notice Revelation 20:13

1. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This is the grave wherein all the dead have been placed. It is not the “fiery, eternal punishing” place.

Again, for ever and ever does not mean, “endless” or “eternal” as can be seen by the passage in Jonah 2:6 (for starters). It is only a period of time. The Greek word “pur” is used. This “lake of fire” or “lake of pur” is a purifying or purging concept wherein sin is purged. When sin is therefore purged, the person is ready to be with God.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

Doesn’t it seem rather odd that God would create a people - allow them to fall from grace - punish them (justly) for it - but then consign them to an eternity in a place called hell where they will be tormented day and night without end when their crime or rebellion lasted a mere 70+ years?

This is an interesting speculation. You could go even further and say that for an all-loving God to punish *at all *is contrary to his nature, and thus impossible.

But If our free will is real (and 5-point Calvinists have a big problem with that), then there must be consequences when we turn against God. Even if the “lake of eternal fire” is just a figure of speech to represent debarment from the divine presence – which translates in human experience to eternal torment – it would seem that sin occurs when that part of our nature which is destined to be with God, and to be happy with him forever, rejects God and everything about him, including his love and his eternity. In so doing, the human soul rejects itself. What could the result of denying God be if not eternal suffering?

 

[Strider]

Ahimsaman,

First, just a thinking man’s question. If hell is only a purification and only “temporary,” why would Jesus say that it would have been better for Judas if he’d never been born (Mk 14:21)? Surely, if your hypothesis is true, even a very protracted stay in hell would be worth the rewards of perfect bliss in heaven.

Even Origen was conflicted about apokatastasis and realized that it conflicted with both Scripture and philosophy (Catholic Encyclopedia).
And it is true that Gregory of Nyssa was enamored of the heresy, but it is stated that even his writings can be seen as being in line with Catholiic teaching.(Catholic Encyclopedia)

Apokatasdtasis as a heresy has a long history, from Origen to modern Protestantism (Catholic Encycloipedia)

Our chance for redemption ends at our death. Either we make it or we don’t. Several poisters have quoted Jesus and St. Paul. Interpret them how you will; the Church of God already has.

Mt 21:46 makes no sense under your theory. “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Jesus would not separate the two if they were to eventually end up in the same place.

This is dangerously close to the sin of presumption, as Catholics see it. “God is kind and loving. He would never put anybody in hell. Besides, I’m a good person…”

 

[ahimsaman72]

itsjustdave1988:

So goes the claim of the Universalists. However, St. Irenaeus, writing well before Origen, disagrees in the context of punishment of the damned, correct?

Just because a word does not always have to mean “endless,” does not necessarily mean that in a specific context, it does not in fact mean specifically “endless.”

Internal evidence is insufficient, in my view. You need to look to external evidence. How did the earliest fathers understand damnation of the wicked?

These are good points.

I’m not sure about St. Irenaeus. It is obvious that they disagreed in their teaching. And of course Origen’s interpretation was not binding doctrine.

“John” - a male, should always be referred to as - a male, unless he lives in Hollywood and has a sex change .

So, too, the Hebrew and Greek words should always be used the same way all the time unless there is a great amount of evidence that suggests otherwise.

I believe the KJV has done the most damage in perpetrating the fallacy of hell as an eternal punishing, tormenting place. It’s been seared into our brains.

The strange this is - in the Apostles Creed, which I agree with, Jesus is said to have descended into “hell”. Did He descend into the everlasting, burning hell or did He go down to the grave? He went to the grave, of course. Wouldn’t you agree?

So, you see, there’s a great deal of misapplying of meanings with some words. Hell has to be one of the most misunderstood words in the English language.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Strider:

Ahimsaman,

First, just a thinking man’s question. If hell is only a purification and only “temporary,” why would Jesus say that it would have been better for Judas if he’d never been born (Mk 14:21)? Surely, if your hypothesis is true, even a very protracted stay in hell would be worth the rewards of perfect bliss in heaven.

Even Origen was conflicted about apokatastasis and realized that it conflicted with both Scripture and philosophy (Catholic Encyclopedia).
And it is true that Gregory of Nyssa was enamored of the heresy, but it is stated that even his writings can be seen as being in line with Catholiic teaching.(Catholic Encyclopedia)

Apokatasdtasis as a heresy has a long history, from Origen to modern Protestantism (Catholic Encycloipedia)

Our chance for redemption ends at our death. Either we make it or we don’t. Several poisters have quoted Jesus and St. Paul. Interpret them how you will; the Church of God already has.

Mt 21:46 makes no sense under your theory. “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Jesus would not separate the two if they were to eventually end up in the same place.

This is dangerously close to the sin of presumption, as Catholics see it. “God is kind and loving. He would never put anybody in hell. Besides, I’m a good person…”

Thanks for your post - very good points.

If he had never been born, he would have never experienced the suffering and anguish of denying the Messiah. So, Christ was right in saying what He did (of course).

Okay, let’s look at Mt 21:46 closely.

“Eternal punishment” in this passage is from the Greek words, “aionion kolasis”. Aionion is an indeterminate amount of time. Kolasis is: correction, punishment, penalty. So, the meaning is there will be correction of the wicked for an indeterminate amount of time. “Eternal life” is “aionion zoe”. I’ve already explained “aionion” so I will explain “zoe” (life). The definition in Strong’s Concordance is:

1) life

a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate

b) every living soul

2) life

a) of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic “logos” and to Christ in whom the “logos” put on human nature b) life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect body), and to last for ever.

The defintion speaks for itself. If I could spend only one day with God in paradise and He then “extinguished me” or I somehow became non-existent, I would say that it was worth it.

It should be noted that if eternal punishing and a fiery place of torment was such an important concept that we should all fear, wouldn’t you think the evidence beginning in the OT would point this out. Moses is completely silent. The prophets are silent.

In every instance of evil displayed to us - the Great Flood, the murder of Abel by Cain, adulterous worship of other gods by Israel - Moses and the prophets should be screaming at us to not follow these wicked people into a fiery burning hell.

What was Cain’s punishment? Did God consign him to a fiery hell? No. He made him wander about for the rest of his life. Just one of the many things that should make one consider things differently.

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

This is an interesting speculation. You could go even further and say that for an all-loving God to punish *at all *is contrary to his nature, and thus impossible.

But If our free will is real (and 5-point Calvinists have a big problem with that), then there must be consequences when we turn against God. Even if the “lake of eternal fire” is just a figure of speech to represent debarment from the divine presence – which translates in human experience to eternal torment – it would seem that sin occurs when that part of our nature which is destined to be with God, and to be happy with him forever, rejects God and everything about him, including his love and his eternity. In so doing, the human soul rejects itself. What could the result of denying God be if not eternal suffering?

Good points -

Well, there must be punishment that fits the crime. The word “kolasin” is the Greek word translated “punishment” in some passages. The meaning of the word (from Greek lexicons) is one of correction, penalty. Punishment must fit its crime. When I punish my children, for example, if I punish them beyond their “crime”, then they can be exasperated. Why? Because that isn’t justice. It would be adequate to punish my teenager for taking the car out against my will to take the keys and suspend them from driving it for a specified period of time. It would not be appropriate to tie them up and beat them repeatedly and burn them with lit cigarettes for it, cut off a limb and feed them bread and water for 30 days (although you might want to ).

God is perfectly just in correcting His creation. It is unjust to accuse Him of exacting a penalty which is greater than the crime itself.

Yes, you see, I saw “free will” and immediately wanted to throw that out the window.

Ephesians 1:9-10

1. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
2. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

---

There are many other verses as well, but this one sticks out to me. God predestined all men. He foreordained it and He will accomplish it. And what is His will?

I Timothy 2:4

1. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

Isaiah 14:27

1. For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

He will do as He pleases. We cannot change that.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Hebrew and Greek words should always be used the same way all the time unless there is a great amount of evidence that suggests otherwise.

No offense, but what color is the sky in your world.

Word mean many things, as anybody with a Greek or Hebrew Lexicon can show you.

So let’s discuss the various meanings of these words…

I simply cannot answer why St. John’s vision lacked a clear presentation of the “restoration”. I can say that hell is never mentioned in his gospel.

But he clearly mentions the punishment of the devil and his followers, in a lake of fire. He calls that punishment “forever and ever.” The same words he used to describe the kingship of Christ.

So, is the kingship of Christ supposed to end after “forever and ever” is over with? If not, why does the punishment of the lake of fire only last for a time?

Rev 20:10 "… and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

In Greek, the word above translated to “tormented” is "basanizo ", which according to Thayer (a universalist who rejects the doctrine of hell as everslasting), can have different meanings. However, among its meanings Thayer gives: “to torture; to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment” (Blue Letter Bible. "Dictionary and Word Search for 'basanizo (Strong’s 928) ’ " . Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2002. 23 Nov 2004. http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=928&page=1)

Whatever happens in this lake of fire, figurative or not, can’t be to pleasant. In fact, this lake sounds rather “hellish” to me.

The word “forever and ever” is from the root Greek word “aion.”

The universalist, Thayer, describes it’s possible meanings as:

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age

(Blue Letter Bible. "Dictionary and Word Search for 'aion (Strong’s 165) ’ " . Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2002. 23 Nov 2004. http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=165&page=1)

Notice the ambiguous meaning of this word “aion.” It could mean a period of time, or it could mean forever, eternity. Hmmmmm. Which way is it used to describe the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire? As I said, the internal evidence can be interpreted in various ways. Sola Scriptura stinketh.

But let’s look at one of the ways aion is used in Scripture …

In the KJV version of the Lord’s Prayer: " … For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever (aion). Amen." (Matt 6:13). Surely the kindom and the power and the glory of God is not going to end, is it?

KJV Luke 1:33 “And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever (aion); and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

The reign of our King is described in the same “forever” language as the duration of the lake of fire, and “there shall be no end.”

In St. John’s usage in the Apocalypse,

KJV Rev 1:6 “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever (aion) and ever (aion). Amen.”

Note the similar usage St. John uses to describe the everlasting glory of God to the way he describes the everlasting punishmen of the lake of fire.

Given St. John’s testimony, St. Irenaeus (an expert in ancient Greek) is quite orthodox, don’t you think?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Here’s the other usage in Rev, as given by the KJV:

Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

If the torment and the reign of Christ similarly by St. John then it seems to me that this means everlasting.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I believe the KJV has done the most damage in perpetrating the fallacy of hell as an eternal punishing, tormenting place. It’s been seared into our brains.

I use the KJV above because the links in the Blue Letter Bible give you the Greek. St. Irenaeus in AD 189 didn’t need the KJV to “mislead” his interpretation. He read and wrote in koine Greek, just as the apostles did. I believe his understanding of the original Greek is much better than later claims.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The strange this is - in the Apostles Creed, which I agree with, Jesus is said to have descended into “hell”. Did He descend into the everlasting, burning hell or did He go down to the grave? He went to the grave, of course. Wouldn’t you agree?

I believe he went to sheol or hades, also referred to as the Bosom of Abraham. But this is rather separate from that lake of fire that lasts for ever and ever, just like the reign of Christ, spoken of in the Apocalypse. It is St. John’s vision of the end that seems to be most compelling to me. And his vision simply omits any sort of restoration of those cast into the lake of fire.

 

[ahimsaman72]

itsjustdave1988:

I believe he went to sheol or hades, also referred to as the Bosom of Abraham. But this is rather separate from that lake of fire that lasts for ever and ever, just like the reign of Christ, spoken of in the Apocalypse. It is St. John’s vision of the end that seems to be most compelling to me. And his vision simply omits any sort of restoration of those cast into the lake of fire.

The point is that KJV uses hell as a general term for very specific places. It is not a separate place according to the KJV. You see that it is a separate place but cannot see that the translators use the same word with two different meanings that contradict each other.

What’s more compelling is the silence of Moses and the prophets.

No one has really commented on them in the times I have posted that argument. They were silent on an eternal fiery place. And given the wickedness displayed in the OT, it’s compelling and carries much weight that the fiery burning hell is not mentioned - only sheol and hades which are “the place of the dead” and “the grave”.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Aionion is an indeterminate amount of time

Not always.

From Dave Armstrongs resource here:
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ128.HTM

This word, kolasis, is defined in Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament as "(eternal) punishment." Vine (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words) says the same thing, as does A.T. Robertson - all impeccable language scholars. Robertson writes:

1. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life.

1. 
   

   {Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, vol. 1, p. 202}

   …
   

   Likewise for the related Greek word aion, which is used throughout Revelation for eternity in heaven (e.g., 1:18, 4:9-10, 5:13-14, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7, 22:5), and also for eternal punishment (14:11, 20:10). Some attempt to argue that Revelation 20:10 only applies to the devil, but they must explain Revelation 20:15: “and *anyone *whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” The “book of life” clearly has reference to human beings (cf. Rev 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:11-14, 21:27). It is impossible to deny that fact.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Matt 25:46 uses Aionios twice, once to describe eternal punishment, and once to describe life in heaven.

KJV Matt 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aionios).”

Greek NT: Matt 25:46 “και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον (EVERLASTING) οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον (ETERNAL)”

Dave Armstrong continues, discussing Matt 25:46 …

I still maintain that Matt 25:46 is crystal clear, and that aionios here means duration with no end. Greek Lexicons and biblical language reference works confirm this. E.g., An Expository Dictionary of NT Words (W.E. Vine; Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell, 1940, vol. 2, p. 43, under “Eternal”) pretty much sums it up, in my opinion, beyond argument:

• Aionios describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Romans 16:25; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless, as in Rom 16:26, and the other 66 places in the NT.

The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit. ‘for a season,’ and in Philm 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Pet 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Pet 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, ‘they shall never perish,’ 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be ‘immortal,’ 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46; Titus 1:2.

Aionios is also used of the sin that ‘hath never forgiveness,’ Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb 6:2, and. of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be ‘unquenchable,’ Mark 9:43.

Likewise, A.T. Robertson:

• The word aionios . . . means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have ‘ages of ages’ (aiones ton aionon).

{Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, vol. 1, p. 202 (under Matt 25:46) }

Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon also concurs, as does Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, the most revered and respected Greek analysis of the NT.

(ibid)

 

[ahimsaman72]

itsjustdave1988:

I use the KJV above because the links in the Blue Letter Bible give you the Greek. St. Irenaeus in AD 189 didn’t need the KJV to “mislead” his interpretation. He read and wrote in koine Greek, just as the apostles did. I believe his understanding of the original Greek is much better than later claims.

The Blue Letter Bible!!! Yes, that’s what I use to do online research. I have a link to it from my website. You can glean a ton of info from that site. It gives the actual Greek or Hebrew and shows you what each means.

I understand St. Irenaeus was “who he was”. He was a learned man. So was Origen and Gregory of Nyssa. That’s my point. All these men were learned men. Each had a different viewpoint. They belonged to the same Church too!

I don’t hold my whole arguments on Origen. I have used him as an example. I hold my arguments on the original manuscripts and the meanings of the words therein.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

What’s more compelling is the silence of Moses and the prophets.

Moses and the prophets are silent about many thing regarding Christianity, don’t you think? The revelation to these was not complete. With Christ and the apostles, it was materially complete. Obvisously, even in the first century, Jews were conflicted regarding the resurrection of bodies (Sadducees versus Pharisees). Given this fact, I’m not suprised that the material revelation given to Moses and the prophets lacks unambiguous evidence to an everlasting punishment of the damned.

 

[ahimsaman72]

I won’t be able to reply again till tomorrow. Hopefully, you guys and gals won’t bomb me with so many that when I get back there’s no way to catch up - take it easy on me, will ya?