Hell

[thistle]

Well, I think THAT is part of the issue…nobody does know that part.

Nor does anyone really know whether there is anyone who…at whatever point that is…would reject God.
I have never denied the teachings, but I have not made assumptions beyond the teachings.

Here is an article where it’s better articulated than I have been able to do, if you’re interested.

catholic-sf.org/news_select.php?newsid=6&id=58364

Nobody in this entire thread has claimed that because it is totally irrelevant. Why do you keep bringing up this meaningless point.
It does not matter when death occurs. What the Church teaches is that you can only repent BEFORE you die. Once you are dead its too late.

 

[TRH1292]

Well, I think THAT is part of the issue…nobody does know that part.

Nor does anyone really know whether there is anyone who…at whatever point that is…would reject God.
I have never denied the teachings, but I have not made assumptions beyond the teachings.

Here is an article where it’s better articulated than I have been able to do, if you’re interested.

catholic-sf.org/news_select.php?newsid=6&id=58364

Yes, I own and have read both Bell’s book and Von Balthasar’s book.

 

[MacQ]

Nobody in this entire thread has claimed that because it is totally irrelevant. Why do you keep bringing up this meaningless point.
It does not matter when death occurs. What the Church teaches is that you can only repent BEFORE you die. Once you are dead its too late.

Sorry…it doesn’t seem ‘irrelevant’ to me to consider that after the physical death we observe, there is still a soul to be reckoned with, and when that reckoning occurs or how is unknown to us. Not everyone dies having been catechized. Not everyone dies on a deathbed fully able to repent. Not everyone dies in a state of full mental faculty. All of those are God’s to sort out, as are we all.

 

[Tom_Baum]

MrSnaith

I wrote, "Since I believe that God is Omniscient, I believe that God knows everyone, (past, present, future) and everything about everyone.

God’s Plan is creation itself and the pivotal point of God’s Plan is God becoming One of us for ALL of us."

You replied, “I agree with both of these statements. Again, however, you didn’t address any of my points or questions.”

So you believe that God knew before creation itself that some would never repent this side of breath, do you think that God created some that He knew would go to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and… or do you think that God may have come up with something in God’s Plan concerning them rather than to just consign them to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and … ?

I, personally, believe that God became One of us for ALL of us and that God’s Plan truly is GOOD NEWS, ultimately, for ALL.

 

[thistle]

Sorry…it doesn’t seem ‘irrelevant’ to me to consider that after the physical death we observe, there is still a soul to be reckoned with, and when that reckoning occurs or how is unknown to us. Not everyone dies having been catechized. Not everyone dies on a deathbed fully able to repent. Not everyone dies in a state of full mental faculty. All of those are God’s to sort out, as are we all.

I repeat that has nothing to do with being dead. Once you are dead you have no chance to repent. That is the infallible teaching of the Church which you are bound to believe.

 

[MrSnaith]

So you believe that God knew before creation itself that some would never repent this side of breath, do you think that God created some that He knew would go to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and… or do you think that God may have come up with something in God’s Plan concerning them rather than to just consign them to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and … ?.

God’s knowledge of tempral events is not foreknowledge. If it were, that would mean that God is temporal, but He’s not. He’s eternal. That means that God’s presence to moments is simultaneous, not sequential. Thus, God’s omniscience is of all that He is present to, which is every thing and every moment always. Thus, the supposition that God wouldn’t create a person He has foreknowledge of who chooses eternal damnation is based on a false premise (namely, that God’s omniscience entails foreknowledge). Rather, God’s omniscient knowledge exists simultaneously with the actual choice, not prior to it, and has always existed simultaneously to it. Therefore, God’s choice to create a person who in the end chooses eternal damnation arises simultaneously with that person’s choice of eternal damnation, not “before” it.

None of that really matters, though, if a person ultimately chooses to reject God. You can’t have it both ways. What it sounds like you’re saying is that nobody really chooses to reject God. Otherwise, it sounds like you’re suggesting that God extends the moment immediately prior to a person’s death indefinitely to provide a person enough “time” to make the ultimate conversion of heart. But this is a counter-intuitive thought. As temporal beings, we experience and live and choose in time, but that occurs in a manner that is intelligible to our bodies, which are us. I would question how aware a person could actually be if his body is “frozen in time” so to speak, which God extends that moment out infinitely.

I, personally, believe that God became One of us for ALL of us and that God’s Plan truly is GOOD NEWS, ultimately, for ALL.

I believe that God became one of us for all of us as well, and that the Gospel is for all. But I also recognize that Christ’s sacrifice was a gift of self, not a rape. He doesn’t force Himself on us, but offers Himself to us, fully allowing us to reject that offer if we choose. That’s what grace means; gift.

 

[Slaney]

divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

 

[McCartney]

Didn’t Mary ask the children to pray for those in hell?

Mary did not ask the children to pray for those in hell. She asked to pray to “Save us from the fires of hell”.

You cannot pray for someone in hell because once they are there it is eternal.

 

[McCartney]

If Gods mercy was infinite, then what about the person who ends up in hell and calls out to God for forgiveness? Are they forgiven or left in hell? If his mercy and forgiveness are ONLY available to us while we are alive…THAT IS FAR FROM BEING INFINITE AND ETERNAL.

People who go to hell do so because they reject God. Once they are in hell they do not ask for forgiveness because they reject the very existence of God.

 

[Amandil]

People who go to hell do so because they reject God. Once they are in hell they do not ask for forgiveness because they reject the very existence of God.

That’s another verse of Scripture that people who advocate for U/S ignore.

Paul expresses the difference between our knowledge here on earth and our knowledge in eternity.

He says that here we see, “as through a glass darkly,” but there we will see fully.

He says here we know partially. Then he says “then”, meaning in eternity, we will know fully as we are known.

We receive mercy from God in this life because of the weakness of our wounded natures due to original sin.

We inherited this from Adam and Eve as a state, not an act.

We receive mercy from God in this life due to our ignorance. We must accept God’s love and forgiveness and work to conquer our tendency to sin through a life in relationship with God and receiving His grace to overcome our weakness.

After death, if we have refused God’s mercy and forgiveness, either through pride of arrogance (I’m a good person and don’t need to be forgiven), or pride of despair(I’m so sinful and wretched that God could never forgive the likes of me), they will enter eternity with those choices ingrained into their wills because they chose to believe themselves over and against God.

Those who insist, “I’m a good person and don’t need to be forgiven,” will never ask for God’s forgiveness; and God will let them have it their way. Thus they will wind up in hell.

Those who say,“my sins are so terrible and wretched that God won’t ever forgive me,” will never ask for God’s forgiveness either; and God will let them have it their way. Thus they will wind up in hell.

Its really that simple.

 

[thistle]

MrSnaith

I wrote, "Since I believe that God is Omniscient, I believe that God knows everyone, (past, present, future) and everything about everyone.

God’s Plan is creation itself and the pivotal point of God’s Plan is God becoming One of us for ALL of us."

You replied, “I agree with both of these statements. Again, however, you didn’t address any of my points or questions.”

So you believe that God knew before creation itself that some would never repent this side of breath, do you think that God created some that He knew would go to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and… or do you think that God may have come up with something in God’s Plan concerning them rather than to just consign them to hell for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and … ?

I, personally, believe that God became One of us for ALL of us and that God’s Plan truly is GOOD NEWS, ultimately, for ALL.

So I don’t misunderstand you can you explain what you mean.

My first impression reading your last sentence is that you somehow believe at the end of time everyone will be with God. I’m sure you don’t mean that because that is Universalism and is a heresy. Anyone believing that would be in a state of mortal sin.

 

[MacQ]

I repeat that has nothing to do with being dead. Once you are dead you have no chance to repent. That is the infallible teaching of the Church which you are bound to believe.

What are the souls in purgatory doing?

 

[TRH1292]

What are the souls in purgatory doing?

Being purified of all there imperfections.

 

[thistle]

What are the souls in purgatory doing?

The souls in Purgatory are there because they died in a state of grace but need purifying before they get into Heaven.

You die in a state of mortal sin you go immediately to Hell.
You die in a state of grace you are immediately saved and can either go straight to Heaven or Purgatory first if purifying is required.

 

[Dave_B]

What are the souls in purgatory doing?

Playing Nintendo Wii Sorry, I couldnt resist the joke

 

[Tom_Baum]

Mary did not ask the children to pray for those in hell. She asked to pray to “Save us from the fires of hell”.

You cannot pray for someone in hell because once they are there it is eternal.

Would that be ““Save us from the fires of hell””, as you wrote, as opposed to keep us from the fires of hell?

Jesus’s Church has a “mission” and as Jesus clearly told us His Church’s “mission” is, “that the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, something to think about, don’t you think?

We can underestimate God and we do all of the time and we can also think/believe that God is the blood sucker that many of us (humans) are, just like the old saying goes, “God created us in His Image and …, and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”.

Have you ever heard that it was written, “Modern biblical scholars have done their best to adjust the picture. They point out that Jesus himself, and even tetchy old St Paul, made no mention of “Hell” or “damnation” in the New Testament. The Greek words used there meant only “judgment” and “condemnation”; and only for “a long time”, aionios, not for ever.”

Sometimes words in the bible that have been translated from another language do not mean what we think, or for some people sad to say hope, they mean.

Not only that but some words don’t even come close to meaning what they appear to mean, a couple of examples: thousand can mean unlimited, many can mean all, hate can mean to love less.,

 

[Tom_Baum]

People who go to hell do so because they reject God. Once they are in hell they do not ask for forgiveness because they reject the very existence of God.

You ever been to hell?

If you haven’t than how do you “know” just what they do or do not ask for?

Do you think that they know that they are in hell?

If they know that they are in hell and even if they did not believe in God before they died, do you think that they continue that “belief”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

So I don’t misunderstand you can you explain what you mean.

My first impression reading your last sentence is that you somehow believe at the end of time everyone will be with God. I’m sure you don’t mean that because that is Universalism and is a heresy. Anyone believing that would be in a state of mortal sin.

First off, how do you know that “time ends”?

“End times” are spoken of , the “end of the age” is spoken of, but where is the “end of time” spoken of?

Ever seen it written, “Modern biblical scholars have done their best to adjust the picture. They point out that Jesus himself, and even tetchy old St Paul, made no mention of “Hell” or “damnation” in the New Testament. The Greek words used there meant only “judgment” and “condemnation”; and only for “a long time”, aionios, not for ever.”?

Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself on the cross and I, for one, do NOT believe that Jesus did this in vain.

God’s Plan truly is GOOD NEWS and God’s Victory is TOTAL, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

I need not know all of the details of God’s Plan but God cares for ALL of God’s creation and that is why God came up with God’s Plan even before creation.

We will ALL go thru judgement, the living and the dead.

 

[MacQ]

Playing Nintendo Wii Sorry, I couldnt resist the joke

:clapping::tsktsk:

THis thread gives me a glimpse of what Hell must be like.

 

[Amandil]

TomBaum:

First off, how do you know that “time ends”?

Because Christ said that His second coming will be on the Last Day.

On the Last Day heaven will descend to the earth and God will FOREVER be with His people, which means “time” will be taken up into eternity.

“Time” is by definition the measurement which we use to measure change.

In heaven there is no change, therefore there is no time.

All this has been revealed by Christ and by the Church.