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Dokimas
Guest
Could you explain why I have to explain …?
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rinnie
Guest
So you are saying you will follow the Teaching’s of St Paul but not St Peter
Okay! That’s Cool
Because they are the same teachings. So I am cool with that. Or do you feel St Paul and St Peter did not agree with eachother on the Teaching’s of the CC?
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Dokimas
Guest
I love the teaching of both Paul and Peter. They don’t contradict each other. To think I was saying that is to misunderstand what I said. No big deal.So you are saying you will follow the Teaching’s of St Paul but not St Peter
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rinnie
Guest
Good, Now do you agree that they were both at the Church in Rome, which by the way is the same Church that Peter is built on St, Peter, and I mean really built on top of.
So back to the Point if you agree that they were of the same Church in Rome that is still there today it is indeed the Roman CATHOLIC Church. So do you see how I was trying show you another of proving the Church was Catholic. Hope it helped.
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benedictus2
Guest
It does teach that there was a prime apostle and this was Peter. The Gospels testify to this and so does Acts.
Now how the Church went about it’s business after the death of the apostles is not in the Bible apart from the clear leadership of Peter as shown in Acts particularly at the council of Jerusalem and the importance that Christ Himself has given to Peter.
The Church very early on recognized that there needs to be a succession to this prime bishopric and that is what the office of the Pope.
Even in Acts we clearly see that the positions of the apostles are considered offices that is to be continued as evidenced when they replaced Judas.
I do not agree the Bible shows your succession of popes, nor the idea your church is the original church.
Of course it does not show us the succession. How could it when it finishes just when the Church is an infant, when it has just been born?
And this is what you need to find out. What did the Church do after that, when Acts closes.
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rinnie
Guest
Did Jesus give Paul the keys to the kingdom? No he gave them to Peter. If you read the O.T whoever ever hold the keys to the kingdom means they have the authority.
Shebna as master of the palace is given the keys to the house of David which authoritatively opens and shuts. Jesus told Peter he alone is given the keys to the kingdom. The Apostles also knew that Christ was giving Peter the authority. That is why it is never questioned. They knew what the keys to the kingdom meant.
The keys given to Peter are the keys to the kingdom of heaven and Peters exercise of authority in the Church on earth will be confirmed in heaven showing the intimate connection.
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rinnie
Guest
It does teach that there was a prime apostle and this was Peter. The Gospels testify to this and so does Acts.
Now how the Church went about it’s business after the death of the apostles is not in the Bible apart from the clear leadership of Peter as shown in Acts particularly at the council of Jerusalem and the importance that Christ Himself has given to Peter.
The Church very early on recognized that there needs to be a succession to this prime bishopric and that is what the office of the Pope.
Even in Acts we clearly see that the positions of the apostles are considered offices that is to be continued as evidenced when they replaced Judas.
Of course it does not show us the succession. How could it when it finishes just when the Church is an infant, when it has just been born?
And this is what you need to find out. What did the Church do after that, when Acts closes.
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Dokimas
Guest
Paul wrote to the church he was instrumental in starting.Good, Now do you agree that they were both at the Church in Rome, which by the way is the same Church that Peter is built on St, Peter, and I mean really built on top of.
So back to the Point if you agree that they were of the same Church in Rome that is still there today it is indeed the Roman CATHOLIC Church. So do you see how I was trying show you another of proving the Church was Catholic. Hope it helped.
I have no problem with the idea both Peter and Paul were in Rome.
I’m confused: is your church the RCC or the CC? Some here speak forcefully that the church is the CC.
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Dokimas
Guest
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Dokimas
Guest
Was Shebna a king, a prophet or a priest?
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jmcrae
Guest
He was the doorkeeper of the House of David, just as the Pope is the doorkeeper of the House of God, which is the Church.
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Dokimas
Guest
Interesting. Nice understanding. However, I see things a little differently.He was the doorkeeper of the House of David, just as the Pope is the doorkeeper of the House of God, which is the Church.
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes. The question is, are you seeing correctly?
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SteveVH
Guest
You are misreading Chapter 15 of Acts concerning the Council of Jerusalem. After much controversy as to whether or not non-Jewish Christians should be burdened with observing Mosaic law, Peter spoke and the assembly “fell silent”. The matter was settled. James, in agreement with Peter, then suggested they send a letter of instruction to the Gentiles and the council agreed.
The Pope is not the only voice of the Church. There are many bishops who may be more prolific writers than the Pope. This has nothing to do with his position of authority.
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benedictus2
Guest
Well I am afraid that the Gospels and Acts prove your wrong. Verses that testify to this truth abound.
There is that point in Ceasaria Philipi when Peter was specirfically chosen first by God the Father, then the choice affirmed by God the Son in His decision to build His Church upon Peter.
Then Jesus prayed alone for Peter just before He died so that Peter will strengthen the others.
Then He singles him out at the ressurection.
Then at Pentecost he makes the speech and he was the one who starts off the ballot for Juda’s position.
And then we have the council of Jerusalem.
And you are right there. James was the bishop of Jerusalem. But inspite of that it was Peter who makes the decision not just for the church in Jerusalem but for all the churches. James and Paul concur with Peter’s decision.
Here Peter plays the “rock”, that is the stabilizing agent between James (who wishes to adhere to the Mosaic Law" and Paul who seems to go the other extreme.
It must be noted as well that Peter came up with this decision because it was to him that God made the revelation regarding the gentiles.
Being written about most does not mean that he is the prime apostle.
Just think about it. If God has so chosen, he could have picked Paul right along with the twelve. But He did not.
Paul was certainly prominent in Acts because Luke was his companion and Jesus decided too choose him in a different way. But to determine who is the prime apostle, one needs to go back to the gospels and then look at who in Acts was making the doctrinal decisions.
We could say that Paul was the first Christian theologian. But as Patrick Madrid said, this actually bears out how the church through out the history has acted. Theologians propose but in the end it is the magisterium that decides what is and is not Christian doctrine.
St Paul’s writings before it was incorporated into the Bible had to pass muster as regards apostolic tradition. And eventually, it was the magisterium who decided that it did indeed belong in the canon.
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benedictus2
Guest
How do you see this?
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Dokimas
Guest
Do you ever question yourself and where you get your understanding? I question myself and the teachings I’ve received.Yes. The question is, are you seeing correctly?
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Dokimas
Guest
Did Peter make his stand after being corrected by Paul? Wasn’t the issue about circumcision? My mind may be failling me.
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Brian_Culliton
Guest
From Acts 15
“Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” (Acts 15:10)
Now therefore, why do you Pharisees in the church of Jerusalem who sent men out to the gentile believers to convert them to Judaism] test God by putting a yoke burden of the Law] on the neck of the disciples all followers of Christ, both Jew and Gentile alike – see verse 9] which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we all the apostles] believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we Jews] shall be saved in the same manner as they the Gentiles].
It is obvious that the apostles understood from the beginning of their commission to preach the Gospel that circumcision was not a requirement for any believer. There was no debate among the apostles over the issue, and there was no decision made by Peter or anyone else regarding circumcision; there was a dispute between them and the Pharisees in the church who sent Judaizers to preach the Law. Notice what James said in the letter that was sent back to Antioch:
“Since we have heard that some of our number who went out without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind…”
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Dokimas
Guest
Act 15:
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.’ {#Am 9:11,12}
18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works. {NU-Text reads Says the Lord, who makes these things known from eternity (of old).}
19 **"Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,**20 "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, {Or fornication} from things strangled, and from blood.
21 “For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
The center of the church at this time was Jerusalem. Notice who was the final spokesman: James.
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