Hello, questions

[DixiesFinest]

That is ok, but Mary or a saint is just an ordinary woman or person.

Yeah, just an ordinary woman, who did nothing out of the ordinary, who carried the SON OF GOD, THE WORD INCARNATE in her womb, which as we know is an ordinary occurrence.

Really? Just ordinary? Please.

 

[Ilroy]

But we have no evidence that God has done so. Therefore, I couldn’t justify in my own conscience praying TO Mary in this way.

And as has been stated previously, we are not required to pray to Mary, or the saints, or ask anyone on earth to pray with and/or for us. Yes, it is a good thing for the entire body of Christ to work together, but not required.
If you don’t feel comfortable, then you pray directly to God yourself and don’t ask anyone else, in Heaven or on earth, to pray with you…that’s perfectly fine.

 

[Lapell]

But Peter said not to do it. The angel in Revelation told John not to do it. In both instances, proskuneo was used, which merely means that the person bowed in reverence, it does not indicate worship/adoration given to God alone, yet they are told not to. Every instance in the New Testament where someone bows to someone other than God, he’s told it’s inappropriate. I find it a hard pill to swallow that, as a Catholic, I could do the complete opposite.

Well, what he meant was that he was worshipping the Sacred Presence that is in the church, not the building per se! He was not bowing to saint Peter nor to an angel! Don’t make up conclusions, please!

 

[Lapell]

Anytime I pass a church, i let my head to a very slight bow… (so I can keep my eyes on the road)

Why do I do this? Out of respect that it is God’s House… It is directed at god…

Same can be said for someone bowing before the Pope… It is respect for Christ…

I can assure you, God knows my heart is saying I worship you… I am also sure God knows when I bow my head when passing a church that he knows I am not worshiping the Building…

In Christ

heisenburg, what you do there is all right, I assure you! Continue, there is nothing wrong there. If our friend could understand what it really means, he would not talk like he did.
Praise be to Jesus Christ now and forever!
The Name of the Lord be blest, He who made the heaven and the earth!

 

[grandfather]

Yeah, just an ordinary woman, who did nothing out of the ordinary, who carried the SON OF GOD, THE WORD INCARNATE in her womb, which as we know is an ordinary occurrence.

Really? Just ordinary? Please.

Only an odrinary virgin and mother.

 

[Lapell]

Only an odrinary virgin and mother.

Yes, and she did all ordinary things she did in such an extraordinary way, didn’t she!

 

[ckempston]

I only wish I could share with you the treasure of grace that comes through Mary and being close to her. I seek her intercession and you reject it. She is the mother of God and many Protestants not only want nothing to do with her, but despise her aid. She conceived Jesus in her womb by the Holy Ghost. Jesus who kept the Law perfectly obeyed this woman. Jesus is our salvation. Our salvation comes to us through Mary alone. If Chrisitnas are Jesus’s brothers and sisters, who is their mother? Mary Help of Christians, pray for us.

I find it alarming that you feel I am missing out on something. Not alarming because I feel like I** am **missing something, but alarming because you feel you can be “closer” to God because you go through Mary. Not possible. You’re either in a relationship with God, or you’re not. There is no “super duper” relationship.

Even your comment here that Protestants reject her aid assumes that she gives aid apart from God, or she gives aid that God is not otherwise capable of giving. Now that is alarming.

 

[Lapell]

I’d have to say that Catholics certainly do “pray to” Mary, and ask her for her protection, etc., and they seem to indicate that Mary has power to do things in and of herself. It’s not just “asking Mary to pray for us.” An example:

ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/immaculate_conception.htm

“Watch over,” “assist,” “entrust to you” all sound a lot like Mary has special powers independent of God. This is a particular stumbling block for me. This goes way too far, in my opinion, in devotion to Mary. “Mary, pray for us” sounds very different from, “Mary, protect us.”

You are right, except that they are NOT independent of God at all. First, she got it from God. And then, she wants what God wills, nothing else. So, the way she use her special “powers”, as you call them, will only be within the Will of God and for His Glory. So, that’s why we are not afraid to pray to her…
Moreover, to his “beloved disciple”, Jesus on the cross said: “Behold thy mother”…Jesus Himself said it. Not just to saint John, otherwise why would he have written that in his Gospel? (To boast himself over the rest of the Apostles? Not very much in accordance with the Holy Spirit, then…)

 

[ckempston]

You are right, except that they are NOT independent of God at all. First, she got it from God. And then, she wants what God wills, nothing else. So, the way she use her special “powers”, as you call them, will only be within the Will of God and for His Glory. So, that’s why we are not afraid to pray to her…

A fine line, if you ask me.

Moreover, to his “beloved disciple”, Jesus on the cross said: “Behold thy mother”…Jesus Himself said it. Not just to saint John, otherwise why would he have written that in his Gospel? (To boast himself over the rest of the Apostles? Not very much in accordance with the Holy Spirit, then…)

Maybe because he wanted her to be taken care of? There were other people at the cross. For your interpretation to stick, Jesus would have turned to all of them and said, “All of my disciples who are here, behold your mother.” He didn’t.

 

[grandfather]

I find it alarming that you feel I am missing out on something. Not alarming because I feel like I** am **missing something, but alarming because you feel you can be “closer” to God because you go through Mary. Not possible. You’re either in a relationship with God, or you’re not. There is no “super duper” relationship.

Even your comment here that Protestants reject her aid assumes that she gives aid apart from God, or she gives aid that God is not otherwise capable of giving. Now that is alarming.

I don’t feel anything. I know I have experienced something you have not. I wish you knew what it was. The same reason you want people to know Jesus, I want you to know Jesus and Mary. Jesus comes to us through Mary, doesn’t He? No Mary = no Jesus. There is no other person who delivers your Salvation to you. He comes through her alone. It is plainly false that some relationships are not better or closer than others. Some people have more grace than others. Some are crowned with more crowns if you believe the Bible. Your faith comes to you through others. This is true of everyone. It might be from the preaching of others, or their prayers, or the financial support they give to missionaries. It is all integrated. It is not you and God. It is us and God.

We are one body and in that body all have unigue positions and roles. There are greater ones and lesser ones. Paul’s role is more important than yours. Abraham is the father of faith and a patriarch. He is more important than I am. So is Mary.

I know I am closer to God with Mary’s help. I have the personal evidence in my life. You do not know her. You reject her and her help. It is impossible for you therefore, to know what you are missing. You can believe you are missing nothing and there is no convincing you differently. That is no different than non-Christians believing they don’t need faith.

 

[FCEGM]

I find it alarming that you feel I am missing out on something. Not alarming because I feel like I** am **missing something, but alarming because you feel you can be “closer” to God because you go through Mary. Not possible. You’re either in a relationship with God, or you’re not. There is no “super duper” relationship.

Even your comment here that Protestants reject her aid assumes that she gives aid apart from God, or she gives aid that God is not otherwise capable of giving. Now that is alarming.

Why would it be alarming since God Himself came through Mary to be with us?

Mary’s influence becomes increasingly all-embracing as souls advance in the interior life. This has been often noted by St. Grignon de Montfort:

"The Holy Ghostbecame fruitful on earth through Mary, His spouse. It was with her and of her that He produced His masterpiece, God-made-man, and that He produces daily till the end of the world the predestined members of the body of our adorable Head: that is why He is all the more active to produce Jesus Christ in a soul the more He finds there Mary, His dear and inseparable spouse.

“This does not mean that Mary gave the Holy Ghost His fecundity. . .it means that the Holy Ghost manifests His fecundity by making use of Mary, even though He does not need her, to produce Jesus Christ and His members in and through her: this is a mystery of grace unknown even to the most learned and spiritual of Christians.”

Mary exercises a very profound influence on faithful souls to lead them to ever greater intimacy with Our Blessed Lord. Those who enter on this way find themselves introduced far into the mystery of the Communion of the Saints, and come gradually to share in the sentiments Mary had at the foot of the Cross, after Jesus’ death, and later on at Pentecost. Those who do not enter on this way can only have a diminished understanding of what Christ has accomplished precisely because they have a diminished understanding of what God accomplished in the person of Mary whom He chose for the Mother of the Son.

 

[cfrancis]

But Peter said not to do it. The angel in Revelation told John not to do it. In both instances, proskuneo was used, which merely means that the person bowed in reverence, it does not indicate worship/adoration given to God alone, yet they are told not to. ** Every instance in the New Testament where someone bows to someone other than God, he’s told it’s inappropriate. ** I find it a hard pill to swallow that, as a Catholic, I could do the complete opposite.

First, proskuneo isn’t the only word “bow,” as you implied.
Just to be accurate:
Luke 24:5
and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead?

No rebuke

Acts 10:25
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.

Scripture is clear that Cornelius was worshipping Peter.

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Again, Scripture is clear John was going to worship the angel.

Acts 28-30
28 But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!”
29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

No rebuke from Paul and Silas.

 

[heisenburg]

CK…

A man who respected peter and bowed before peter because it was peter and what peter did… this is what was the issue at hand… he had respect for a peter centric issue, not God…

Also, If I bowed before an angel because ti was an angel… this would also be wrong…

I should never submit myself in the form of bowing or otherwise to anything other than for God

When I bow to a church, I am actually bowing to God…

I bow because it is a GOD centric issue…Not and Angel Centric or Peter centric issue… there is a huge difference…

Does that make any sense?

In Christ

 

[FCEGM]

… I know I am closer to God with Mary’s help. I have the personal evidence in my life. You do not know her. You reject her and her help. It is impossible for you therefore, to know what you are missing. You can believe you are missing nothing and there is no convincing you differently. That is no different than non-Christians believing they don’t need faith.

This is just it, grandfather. And it comes about because so many Protestants can’t accept the idea that anyone is in a better relationship with God and His Christ than they. After all, thinking that “you’re either in a relationship with God, or you’re not” doesn’t allow for degrees of intimacy within that relationship - especially if it’s Mary we’re talking about.

 

[ckempston]

I don’t feel anything. I know I have experienced something you have not. I wish you knew what it was. The same reason you want people to know Jesus, I want you to know Jesus and Mary. Jesus comes to us through Mary, doesn’t He? No Mary = no Jesus. There is no other person who delivers your Salvation to you. He comes through her alone. It is plainly false that some relationships are not better or closer than others. Some people have more grace than others. Some are crowned with more crowns if you believe the Bible. Your faith comes to you through others. This is true of everyone. It might be from the preaching of others, or their prayers, or the financial support they give to missionaries. It is all integrated. It is not you and God. It is us and God.

No David = No Jesus. See? I can make nice equations too.

We are one body and in that body all have unigue positions and roles. There are greater ones and lesser ones. Paul’s role is more important than yours. Abraham is the father of faith and a patriarch. He is more important than I am. So is Mary.

Wow, you just directly contradicted a plainly worded passage of scripture and you don’t even know it.

I know I am closer to God with Mary’s help. I have the personal evidence in my life. You do not know her. You reject her and her help. It is impossible for you therefore, to know what you are missing. You can believe you are missing nothing and there is no convincing you differently. That is no different than non-Christians believing they don’t need faith.

Mormons know they are closer to God because of their burning bosom. Do you accept that? Don’t think so. Your sentiments cannot be proven by scripture or anything remotely close to the time of the Apostles. I’m finding 200 years of silence on Mary, and in the beginning, the statements, such as those of Irenaeus or Justin say no more than what scripture says about her. If I have a relationship with God, Mary can add nothing. As I’ve said, one either has a relationship with God, or one does not. There is no gray area or extra-super-duper relationship with God.

 

[JRKH]

Out of your two explanations, I note that my interpretation is not one of them. I find it just as, if not more, likely. If not wrong, bowing before the Pope is certainly treading on thin ice.

I seem to be having an increasingly difficult time with some specifics which would make it very difficult for me to become Catholic. While I agree with much of the theology behind Catholicism, there are several things that seem to be rather large stumbling blocks in my path.

I’m sorry to hear that you are having trouble with certain aspects of Catholicism.
On thing to remember in discerning the faith is to differentiate between Dogmatic teachings and Practice.
As to the Holy Father, Bowing, or Kneeling, or Kissing the Ring are things that fall into the latter catagory. They are Practices and not requirements for salvation.

I did not mean to belittle your interpretation, only point out that there are other possible ones.
One of the things that tends to trouble me about both Catholics and Non-Catholics is how quickly we can succumb to arguing about tittles.
Look at some of the Gospels where Jesus gets frustrated with the Pharasees over their incessant need for rules and observance etc.
One of the most powerful to me is where Jesus refers to, “What goes into the mouth does not make on unclean”. He was refering to food, but the same idea can be extrapolated to include certain behaviors. If we perform certain behaviors to show that we are good Christians, we have a two edged sword. On the one hand we have Jesus telling us NOT to do things for show, and on the other we have the desire to spread the Gospel through our Actions as well as our words. It’s the intent, not the action which makes something good or bad in most cases.
Jesus was trying to get people to see how important it is to stay focused on God rather than being focused on laws and rules etc. If one feels compeled to kiss the popes ring out of Love and respect for God, then he should do so. If one is feels complelled not to do so out of love and respect for God then he should, likewise, do so.

It’s just so hard to ecplain some of these things.

Peace
James

 

[grandfather]

This is just it, grandfather. And it comes about because so many Protestants can’t accept the idea that anyone is in a better relationship with God and His Christ than they. After all, thinking that “you’re either in a relationship with God, or you’re not” doesn’t allow for degrees of intimacy within that relationship - especially if it’s Mary we’re talking about.

Jesus is fully God and fully man. As man He is like us in every way but sin. That means He shares all of our affections, emotions and experiences. I love my daughter and I love an orphan I support in India. I love my wife and I love my friend. Some people are closer to me than others. My friend also loves my daughter and wishes her well, but I love her more. We are all in families and understand this. Jesus is like us in this way, because He is fully man and experiences humanity like we do, without sin.

We all should love Jesus. John says the love of God consists in this, that we obey His commandments. Jesus says if a man loves me He will keep my commands.

God the Father loves God the Son with an Infinite love. We are finite and can not love God with infinite love. We can love Him as much as humanly possible. How can we know this love? Who can show us how to love to the full human capacity?

For most people, if asked what person on earth loves them the most the answer is their mother. So we come to an old Catohlic saying as we go deeper into the spiritual life, but that is incomprehensible to Protestants.

Love Jesus with the heart of Mary.

They do not know her. They don’t get it. They don’t understand that they are missing something very great. They can extol Paul. They can extol Billy Graham, or Billy Sunday, or Martin Luther, or George Washington, and not see any problem there. If told they should extol Mary or the saints they think that takes something away from Jesus.

 

[JRKH]

A fine line, if you ask me.

Actually I can see both sides in this issue. I agree that the line is somewhat thin, particularly in the case of the BVM. Given that, I will say that many many people have expereinced many wonderful things through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin.
Hoewver, here agina I think that you need to be comfortable with it to use Marion devotionals. If not then don’t use them. Simple fix.

Peace
James

 

[DixiesFinest]

I don’t feel anything. I know I have experienced something you have not. I wish you knew what it was. The same reason you want people to know Jesus, I want you to know Jesus and Mary. Jesus comes to us through Mary, doesn’t He? No Mary = no Jesus. There is no other person who delivers your Salvation to you. He comes through her alone. It is plainly false that some relationships are not better or closer than others. Some people have more grace than others. Some are crowned with more crowns if you believe the Bible. Your faith comes to you through others. This is true of everyone. It might be from the preaching of others, or their prayers, or the financial support they give to missionaries. It is all integrated. It is not you and God. It is us and God.

We are one body and in that body all have unigue positions and roles. There are greater ones and lesser ones. Paul’s role is more important than yours. Abraham is the father of faith and a patriarch. He is more important than I am. So is Mary.

I know I am closer to God with Mary’s help. I have the personal evidence in my life. You do not know her. You reject her and her help. It is impossible for you therefore, to know what you are missing. You can believe you are missing nothing and there is no convincing you differently. That is no different than non-Christians believing they don’t need faith.

My bad grandfather, I just realized earlier I misinterpreted what you wrote.

 

[maize]

Baptist “Baptism” is invalid because they do not believe that in it one is saved, has sins forgiven, and receives the Holy Spirit.

if a baptist baptism that are done in the name of the trinity(and most other protestant denominations that believe this) is/are invalid, why does the church recognize these baptisms?

or is this just a personal opinion?