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I’d have to say that Catholics certainly do “pray to” Mary, and ask her for her protection, etc., and they seem to indicate that Mary has power to do things in and of herself. It’s not just “asking Mary to pray for us.” An example:

ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/immaculate_conception.htm

“Watch over,” “assist,” “entrust to you” all sound a lot like Mary has special powers independent of God. This is a particular stumbling block for me. This goes way too far, in my opinion, in devotion to Mary. “Mary, pray for us” sounds very different from, “Mary, protect us.”
According to St Bonaventure, The Angels of Heaven never stopped calling to Our Blessed Virgin Mother, “Holy, holy, holy Mary, Virgin Mother of God!” A million times a day they give her the angelic greeting, “Hail Mary!” They prostrate themselves before her. They beg her to honor them with her commands. St. Michael, the prince of the heavenly court, is the most eager to pay homage, St Augustine says, and to run her errands.

We Pray to the Blessed Mother to Pray for us, to intercede for us, and yes to protect us (I pray to my Guardian Angel and the Seven Archangels; St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, St. Uriel, St. Jehudiel, St. Sealtiel, & St. Barachiel for protection and guidance also). During some exorcisms, the demons even revealed that they fear the Blessed Mother more than anyone else. Our Heavenly Father has given her much power, which most people do not realize. Most will argue that God would not do that, or something to that nature; but who are we to say what God wills and and what He does not will, who are we to assume? The fact of the matter is that this knowledge has been revealed to many different saints, Saint Louis de Montfort is one one of them.

Why would we ask for Her intercession? Because she is Our Mother [John 19, 26-27] and the Mother of God, and whatever she asks of her Son Our Lord Jesus Christ He will not deny:

“And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece. Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now, and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it. And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine, and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water; the chief steward calleth the bridegroom, And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.” [John 2, 3-11]

Because, this the request of his mother Mary Christ preformed His FIRST Miracle. This incredible love Christ shows for his mother is the best example of why this ability to go to Mary and the Saints with our petitions for them to lay at the foot of the throne of Christ. A beautiful and wonderful privilege!!!

Most tend to misconstrue Catholics as idolizers of the Blessed Virgin Mary, when truly they are mistaking veneration with idolatry.

The veneration of the saints is not only in full accord with the demands of reason, but we are, moreover, enjoined explicitly by Holy Scripture to venerate the memory of the holy patriarchs and prophets: “Let us now praise men of renown, and our fathers in their generation” (Ecclus. xliv. 1). “And their names continue for ever, the glory of the holy men remaining unto their children” (Ecclus xlvi. 15).

Reason and Holy Scripture, then, are in favor of the veneration of the Saints. We find it practised, therefore, also in the early Church. She was convinced from the very beginning of its propriety and utility. As early as the first century the memorial day of the martyrs’ death was observed by the Christians. They assembled at the tombs of the sainted victims of pagan cruelty and celebrated their memory by offering up the Holy Sacrifice over their relics. We know this not only from the testimony of the earliest ecclesiastical writers, as Origen, Tertullian, and St. Cyprian, but also from the history of St. Ignatius the Martyr (d. 107), and of St. Polycarp of Smyrna (d. 166). Over one hundred panegyrics of various saints written by
St. Augustine are still extant.

And why should it not be right and useful to invoke the intercession of the saints? Everybody deems it proper to ask a pious friend for his prayers. St. Paul the Apostle recommended himself to the prayers of the faithful (Rom. xv. 30), and God Himself commanded the friends of Job to ask Him for His intercession that their sin might not be imputed to them (Job xlii. 8). How, then, can it be wrong or superfluous to invoke the intercession fo the saints in heaven? The saints are willing to invoke God’s bounty in our favor, for they love us. They are able to obtain it for us, because God always accepts their prayer with complacency. That they really hear our prayer and intercede with God for us is clearly shown by many examples in Holy Scripture. And if, according to the testimony of St. James (v.16), the prayer of the just man here on earth availeth much with God, how much more powerful, then, must be the prayer of the saints, who are united with God in heaven in perfect love and are, so to say, partakers of His infinite goodness and omnipotence?

A most striking proof of the efficacy of the prayers of the saints is the numerous miracles wrought and the many favors obtained at all times through their intercession. Among these miracles are a great number whose authenticity was declared by the Church after the most scrupulous and strict investigation, as the acts of canonization prove.

I pray to Our Blessed Mother and ask her to Pray for me to her Son and to The Lord Our God for my soul.

A question that I have for you is, do you know what “And he that sat, was to the sight like the jasper and the sardine stone; and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.” [The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle 4:3] is talking about?

“The life of this Phœnix among the works of God is a book so sealed up that none is found among all the creatures of heaven and earth, worthy to open it (Apoc. 4, 3). It is evident then, that only the powerful Lord can unseal it; He who made Her more perfect than all the creatures; or She herself, the Mistress, our Queen and Mother, who was worthy to receive and properly to appreciate her ineffable gifts.” Ven. Mary of Agreda*
 
Well, I think it’d much easier on something of an IM, msn is what I got, but I got aim and yahoo too, if thats not possible, umk.

btw: I was told by a friend, that the rock is not peter but christ. hmm?

btw: Most of the people have been very, very helpful, and for that I thank you 👍
The folks here, by and large, are a great bunch. Of course as with any large group there is a wide range of knowledge, communication skills etc. The best advise I can give to anyone is to “turn the other cheek” as much as possible. Ignore insults, stay on subject, try not to read into things, answer questions directly and ask clear questions.

As to the Peter Rock issue, there is a thread on here whre this was discussed at tremendous length. This particular thread included a couple of people who are highly knowledgable linguists. They explained in great detail how your friends presumption is wrong.
I’ll try to locate that thread if I get a chance.

Peace
James
 
Bishops can be wrong. Heresies are named after bishops.

The pope can be wrong when he gives a personal opinion or in a policy. He can not be wrong when he teaches from the seat (cathedra) of Peter. Popes rarely do that. When the bishops and the pope come togeter in a formal (ecumenical) Church council and define a doctrine or dogma, they can not be wrong. The Holy Spirit protects their teaching. Jesus said to His apostles that He would be with them until the end of time and lead them into all truth. The things the Church believes as article of faith can not be
false, because God guarantees, as recorded in the Bible, God promises we will know truth. If the Church believes false doctrine God’s promises are false. “Whatever you bind on earth I will bind in heaven”, is what Jesus said to them, in the Bible.
List the doctrines that have been taught ex cathedra.
 
According to St Bonaventure, The Angels of Heaven never stopped calling to Our Blessed Virgin Mother, “Holy, holy, holy Mary, Virgin Mother of God!” A million times a day they give her the angelic greeting, “Hail Mary!” They prostrate themselves before her. They beg her to honor them with her commands. St. Michael, the prince of the heavenly court, is the most eager to pay homage, St Augustine says, and to run her errands.
Wow, St. Bonaventure, eh? 1200 years after Christ and you expect someone to be impressed with what he claims about what he cannot possibly know? (i.e. what goes on in heaven?). Although I’d be interested in a reference for Augustine, 300 some-odd years after Christ, the church was thoroughly Romanized.
We Pray to the Blessed Mother to Pray for us, to intercede for us, and yes to protect us (I pray to my Guardian Angel and the Seven Archangels; St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, St. Uriel, St. Jehudiel, St. Sealtiel, & St. Barachiel for protection and guidance also). During some exorcisms, the demons even revealed that they fear the Blessed Mother more than anyone else. Our Heavenly Father has given her much power, which most people do not realize. Most will argue that God would not do that, or something to that nature; but who are we to say what God wills and and what He does not will, who are we to assume? The fact of the matter is that this knowledge has been revealed to many different saints, Saint Louis de Montfort is one one of them.
Well, if he says he will not do it in the Bible, which we both accept as true, then we can be pretty sure he won’t.
Why would we ask for Her intercession? Because she is Our Mother [John 19, 26-27] and the Mother of God, and whatever she asks of her Son Our Lord Jesus Christ He will not deny:
Your conclusion doesn’t logically follow. Sorry.
“And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece. Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And Jesus saith to them: Draw out now, and carry to the chief steward of the feast. And they carried it. And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine, and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water; the chief steward calleth the bridegroom, And saith to him: Every man at first setteth forth good wine, and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But thou hast kept the good wine until now. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.” [John 2, 3-11]
Because, this the request of his mother Mary Christ preformed His FIRST Miracle. This incredible love Christ shows for his mother is the best example of why this ability to go to Mary and the Saints with our petitions for them to lay at the foot of the throne of Christ. A beautiful and wonderful privilege!!!
Most tend to misconstrue Catholics as idolizers of the Blessed Virgin Mary, when truly they are mistaking veneration with idolatry.
Bowing, kissing the hand, kneeling all = worship. Jesus said don’t do it. Mt 4:10. Peter said don’t do it. Acts 10:26. The angel said don’t do it. Rev 22:9.

You can listen to a bunch of guys who lived hundreds and a thousands of years after Christ. Me? I’ll listen to Jesus, Peter and an Angel.
The veneration of the saints is not only in full accord with the demands of reason, but we are, moreover, enjoined explicitly by Holy Scripture to venerate the memory of the holy patriarchs and prophets: “Let us now praise men of renown, and our fathers in their generation” (Ecclus. xliv. 1). “And their names continue for ever, the glory of the holy men remaining unto their children” (Ecclus xlvi. 15).
See above. Giving respect is not worship. Bowing before and kissing rings is.
Reason and Holy Scripture, then, are in favor of the veneration of the Saints. We find it practised, therefore, also in the early Church. She was convinced from the very beginning of its propriety and utility. As early as the first century the memorial day of the martyrs’ death was observed by the Christians. They assembled at the tombs of the sainted victims of pagan cruelty and celebrated their memory by offering up the Holy Sacrifice over their relics. We know this not only from the testimony of the earliest ecclesiastical writers, as Origen, Tertullian, and St. Cyprian, but also from the history of St. Ignatius the Martyr (d. 107), and of St. Polycarp of Smyrna (d. 166). Over one hundred panegyrics of various saints written by
St. Augustine are still extant.
As I just demonstrated from Jesus himself, Peter (your supposed first Pope), and an Angel, all denied that someone bow (proskuneo) to anyone but God scripture.
And why should it not be right and useful to invoke the intercession of the saints? Everybody deems it proper to ask a pious friend for his prayers. St. Paul the Apostle recommended himself to the prayers of the faithful (Rom. xv. 30), and God Himself commanded the friends of Job to ask Him for His intercession that their sin might not be imputed to them (Job xlii. 8). How, then, can it be wrong or superfluous to invoke the intercession fo the saints in heaven? The saints are willing to invoke God’s bounty in our favor, for they love us. They are able to obtain it for us, because God always accepts their prayer with complacency. That they really hear our prayer and intercede with God for us is clearly shown by many examples in Holy Scripture. And if, according to the testimony of St. James (v.16), the prayer of the just man here on earth availeth much with God, how much more powerful, then, must be the prayer of the saints, who are united with God in heaven in perfect love and are, so to say, partakers of His infinite goodness and omnipotence?
Intercession is a separate issue. I don’t deny its possible validity.
A most striking proof of the efficacy of the prayers of the saints is the numerous miracles wrought and the many favors obtained at all times through their intercession. Among these miracles are a great number whose authenticity was declared by the Church after the most scrupulous and strict investigation, as the acts of canonization prove.
We are warned about miracles many times in scripture. They can’t be trusted in these times.
I pray to Our Blessed Mother and ask her to Pray for me to her Son and to The Lord Our God for my soul.
I pray directly to Jesus that you stop bowing before men.
A question that I have for you is, do you know what “And he that sat, was to the sight like the jasper and the sardine stone; and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.” [The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle 4:3] is talking about?*
Enlighten me.
“The life of this Phœnix among the works of God is a book so sealed up that none is found among all the creatures of heaven and earth, worthy to open it (Apoc. 4, 3). It is evident then, that only the powerful Lord can unseal it; He who made Her more perfect than all the creatures; or She herself, the Mistress, our Queen and Mother, who was worthy to receive and properly to appreciate her ineffable gifts.” Ven. Mary of Agreda
Were you trying to prove something here? Proof requires evidence, not assertions.
 
The folks here, by and large, are a great bunch. Of course as with any large group there is a wide range of knowledge, communication skills etc. The best advise I can give to anyone is to “turn the other cheek” as much as possible. Ignore insults, stay on subject, try not to read into things, answer questions directly and ask clear questions.

As to the Peter Rock issue, there is a thread on here whre this was discussed at tremendous length. This particular thread included a couple of people who are highly knowledgable linguists. They explained in great detail how your friends presumption is wrong.
I’ll try to locate that thread if I get a chance.

Peace
James
The thread I was looking for is HERE
It is a long thread, but if you look out around page 8 or 9 you begin to see the discussion about the derivations of the words Kepha, Petros etc. The two Gentlemen who really get into the explainations are Claudius and Ronydish. It tends to get a bit detailed, but is well worth a look.

Peace
James
 
I can’t, but I think there are three, the latest that women can not be ordained priests.
I’d think there are way more than three. I’ve heard this claim of “about three” before. Wouldn’t you say that the canons promulgated by Ecumenical Councils are infallable?
 
Bowing, kissing the hand, kneeling all = worship. Jesus said don’t do it. Mt 4:10. Peter said don’t do it. Acts 10:26. The angel said don’t do it. Rev 22:9.
Apparently you are hoping no one calls you on this. You are mis-using Scripture to make your point.

You stated in post #36:
But Peter said not to do it. The angel in Revelation told John not to do it. In both instances, proskuneo was used, which merely means that the person bowed in reverence, it does not indicate worship/adoration given to God alone, yet they are told not to. **Every instance in the New Testament where someone bows to someone other than God, he’s told it’s inappropriate. ** I find it a hard pill to swallow that, as a Catholic, I could do the complete opposite.
Here is what Scripture says:
First, proskuneo isn’t the only word “bow,” as you implied.
Just to be accurate:
Luke 24:5
and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead?

No rebuke

Acts 10:25
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.

Scripture is clear that Cornelius was worshipping Peter. Please note Scripture is clear to point out the intent of the bowing in this situation: worship. It is the intent, not the bowing.

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Again, Scripture is clear John was going to worship the angel. Again, please note Scripture is clear to point out the intent of the falling at the angel’s feet in this situation: worship. It is the intent, not the bowing.

Acts 28-30
28 But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!”
29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Note the jailer fell at their feet just as John did above. No rebuke from Paul and Silas.
 
Apparently you are hoping no one calls you on this. You are mis-using Scripture to make your point.

You stated in post #36:

Here is what Scripture says:
First, proskuneo isn’t the only word “bow,” as you implied.
Just to be accurate:
Luke 24:5
and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead?

No rebuke

Acts 10:25
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.

Scripture is clear that Cornelius was worshipping Peter. Please note Scripture is clear to point out the intent of the bowing in this situation: worship. It is the intent, not the bowing.

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Again, Scripture is clear John was going to worship the angel. Again, please note Scripture is clear to point out the intent of the falling at the angel’s feet in this situation: worship. It is the intent, not the bowing.

Acts 28-30
28 But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!”
29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Note the jailer fell at their feet just as John did above. No rebuke from Paul and Silas.
Refuted with an English translation! :rolleyes: You can’t be serious. The word is proskuneo. It means bow down, kiss a hand or ring (which is what Catholics do in front of the Pope, statues, etc.), and the Bible says not to do it. For the record, that’s not the word used in Luke 24:5 (that word indicates falling back out of fear, not bowing). Also not the word used in Acts 16:28-30, and in this case, Paul obviously gets him up and brings him out to be baptized. If you’re going to try to refute the use of a Greek word, at least check a lexicon to make sure that word is actually used in the passage.
 
I’d think there are way more than three. I’ve heard this claim of “about three” before. Wouldn’t you say that the canons promulgated by Ecumenical Councils are infallable?
The pope has only invoked the power of infallibility twice. Once was to proclaim the dogma of the Immaculate Conception (in the document Ineffabilis Deus, on December 8, 1854). The Vatican I council infallibly defined the dogma of papal infallibility in 1870 to clarify that he indeed had this power. The other use of the power was to proclaim the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into heaven (in the document Munificentissimus Deus, on November 1, 1950). Although the ordination of women has indeed been declared infallibly, there is some debate as to whether this was pronounced by the pope, or whether he reaffirmed a constant teaching of the church that was already infallible.

Yes, councils can also proclaim infallibility, and there is also the infallibility of the ordinary Magesterium of the church. Each is a separate issue.
 
Refuted with an English translation! :rolleyes: You can’t be serious. The word is proskuneo. It means bow down, kiss a hand or ring (which is what Catholics do in front of the Pope, statues, etc.), and the Bible says not to do it. For the record, that’s not the word used in Luke 24:5 (that word indicates falling back out of fear, not bowing). Also not the word used in Acts 16:28-30, and in this case, Paul obviously gets him up and brings him out to be baptized. If you’re going to try to refute the use of a Greek word, at least check a lexicon to make sure that word is actually used in the passage.
Here is Strong’s entry for proskuneo :
4352. proskuneo pros-koo-neh’-o from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):–worship.

I understand how you hope your reply would “shame” me off the topic…
Acts 10:25 (Greek):
pipto epi ho pous proskuneo
(falling on the feet he worships)

Rev 19:10 (Greek):
pipto emprosthen ho pous autos prokuneo
(I fall in toward place of the feet of him to worhsip)

In both cases, Scripture is clear to combine the falling at the feet with the intent of the one falling at the feet. Two distinct issues: the action (pipto) and the intent (proskuneo), meaning one can do the action with or without the intent.

Proof?

Acts 16:29:
prospipto ho paulos kai ho silas
(he toward falls to the Paul and to the Silas)

Same action, without the worship.

Mt 8:2:
lepros proserchomai proskuneo autos
(leper toward coming worshipped to Him)

Intent to worship without the action (same with Mt 9:18)

Scripture appears to use a particular verbiage when it wants to combine the action and intent:

Rom 11:4:
ou kampto gonu
(not bow knee)

Rom 14:11:
kampto pas gonu
(shall be bowing every knee)

Eph 3:14:
kampto ho ganu
(I am bowing the knees)

Yet that language (kampto gonu) is not used in any of the rebuking instances you’ve presented.
 
The pope has only invoked the power of infallibility twice. Once was to proclaim the dogma of the Immaculate Conception (in the document Ineffabilis Deus, on December 8, 1854). The Vatican I council infallibly defined the dogma of papal infallibility in 1870 to clarify that he indeed had this power. The other use of the power was to proclaim the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into heaven (in the document Munificentissimus Deus, on November 1, 1950). Although the ordination of women has indeed been declared infallibly, there is some debate as to whether this was pronounced by the pope, or whether he reaffirmed a constant teaching of the church that was already infallible.

Yes, councils can also proclaim infallibility, and there is also the infallibility of the ordinary Magesterium of the church. Each is a separate issue.
The church claims that it has always been infallable, it simply stated this fact. Vatican I infallably defined infallability necessitates that infallability to have already been in existence, it just wasn’t defined. What else has the church taught, throughout history, that is infallable?

So far, I’ve heard: the creeds, the three commonly referred to, and the results of Ecumenical councils.
 
The church claims that it has always been infallable, it simply stated this fact. Vatican I infallably defined infallability necessitates that infallability to have already been in existence, it just wasn’t defined. What else has the church taught, throughout history, that is infallable?

So far, I’ve heard: the creeds, the three commonly referred to, and the results of Ecumenical councils.
Here’s a rough list that I found on the internet. I skimmed it pretty fast, so I can’t vouch for it’s completeness:
jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm
 
Refuted with an English translation! :rolleyes: You can’t be serious. The word is proskuneo. It means bow down, kiss a hand or ring (which is what Catholics do in front of the Pope, statues, etc.), and the Bible says not to do it. For the record, that’s not the word used in Luke 24:5 (that word indicates falling back out of fear, not bowing). Also not the word used in Acts 16:28-30, and in this case, Paul obviously gets him up and brings him out to be baptized. If you’re going to try to refute the use of a Greek word, at least check a lexicon to make sure that word is actually used in the passage.
But no rebuke. Whether it is in English doesn’t mean it’s not relevant. What is the word used in Greek for the jail guard falling at Paul’s and Sias’ feet in that passage???
 
But no rebuke. Whether it is in English doesn’t mean it’s not relevant. What is the word used in Greek for the jail guard falling at Paul’s and Sias’ feet in that passage???
Lapell, check out post #171!
 
btw: I was told by a friend, that the rock is not peter but christ. hmm?

:
Jesus said to Peter “thou art Peter [rock] and on this rock i will build my Church…” (St. matthew 16:18)… Was Jesus jsut talking to himself… and wanting to confuse people by making it look like he was talking to peter.??

hmmm… :rolleyes:
 
The pope has only invoked the power of infallibility twice.
the pope has infallibility every time he teaches something that must be believed by the faithful…

that has happend far more than twice…
 
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