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Annabea,
I think you do extremely well as a debater, and I am not trying to be patronizing. I just enjoy how you handle yourself with such a crowd as this.

If you could think of the following analogies for a few minutes:

Liken this world to a haystack, with a small tube hidden inside with a special kind of “water” that brings joy and wisdom to the person (people) who find that tube and drink the water. The special water helps them in their relationships with others, and also in how they view themselves.

Person “A” can look at the haystack and say, “there is no such tube hidden in there,” even though other people who have found such a tube have said, “yes, there is.” That person “A” could go on their way and say to themselves, “I’m fine without such special water. I don’t need it.” They are correct, except that perhaps there will come a time in their life when the wisdom that was available could really have helped them, but they had said “No–I’m not going to look in the haystack for the tube.” They will also miss out on helping others who could have been helped because Person “A” has unique qualities that no one else has, that can be fully developed using the special wisdom available in the tube. (That’s a little bit selfish, no?)

Finishing off the analogy, if Person “A” decides they will look for the tube of special water, they could start taking apart the haystack straw by straw to try and find the tube, or they could ask the maker of the haystack who placed the tube in there, where they should look for it and if it is real. All the Maker of the haystack asks in response is, “Are you being sincere? Do you really want to know about this? I hid it in there because it is only for those willing to look without having their own hidden agendas for the use of the water. Besides, most people don’t really want that special water–why do you want it instead of your own version of the water you yourself happen to like? You’ll still live forever even without that particular special water.”
That is explaining what you believe in a haystack form. I have figured out the base of your beliefs. I am trying to figure out why you believe. Actually, I have figured out that too, now I’m trying to figure out if you should believe.
 
Hi friend, welcome to CAF!

I’m one of those pesky Roman Catholics.

You asked what “I believe” but in truth what I believe is what the Catholic Church holds as true and necessary for Salvation. I’ll be happy to amplify or clarify any questions you may have.
  1. It can be shown that God not only exist, but if one has personal intellectual intregity, that “God” is the Creator [to make out of nothing] of the Universe, and everything that populates, especially humanity.
  2. By God’s choice this deity is ONE, with three separate, yet unable to be separated “persons”: Father = Creator, Son = Jesus, Redeemer, and Holy Spirit = Sanctifier.
  3. Humanity is created to do the Will (freely) of our Creator
  4. God in the person of Jesus, became “man” like us in every way but sin, so as to “Redeem” us [which is not at the same time His act of Salvation] which is separate from but nevertheless through the Merits of Christ.
  5. He Jesus, while on earth founded one Church [that which we now identify as the Catholic Church] for the salvation of souls!
  6. This same Church has been in continual existence for some 2000 consecutive years, and continues to be the largest Worldwide Christian Church.
  7. This same Church has an unbroken line of Leaders we call “Popes” in a structure set up by Christ Himself. I can provide a list of names and dates if required.
  8. The teachings of this Faith are found in the Catholic Bible, and summarized in our two Creeds. The Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed, same message, different verbiage. Both can be “GOOGLED.”
  9. This God has given a set of rules to live by that we know as His Commandments, and has given to every human person the grace [super-natural ability] to know him.
  10. We believe in the existence of Heaven [reward] and Hell [penalty] based on how we lead our lives in accordance to this God’s Will.
I have by intent left much to be discussed.

Love and prayers friend,

Pat
Why?
 
The whole way you dealt with learning my age.
And being an equal doesn’t mean you don’t have respect. I treat everyone as my equal, from small children to old adults. I treat them all with respect. Age is nothing but how long you have been on this planet.
And what did I say except something that any adult would say to someone who is 12 and posting at midnight. I don’t think this is correct. Sorry!!! So adults are your equal, Annabea?

P.S. Annabea, what comment (that I stated) are you refering to when you said “the way you dealt with learning my age”?
 
Oh well heres the thing. We don’t believe in theories. We believe in God:D So you are right though I don’t think anyones really interested in your theories. We are more interested in God. He’s our Hero. Our Savior. Our Lord and Master. With him who needs theories. We got the sure thing! The Real thing! There is only one insight we can give you and that is to give your heart and soul to God, I will guarantee you, after you see the goodness and wonderful things he can do in your life you wont give a darn about theories either. Instead of trying debating you will find yourself feeling much more peace in prayers. Thats what I am going to do now. I need to practice what I preach. I am going to spend some quiet time with God and in prayer. Its my favorite time of the day!😃
God is a theory. Take it or leave it.
 
I am not making a claim, you are. The burden of proof is on you.

The only eyewitness testimony you have to this is in the bible. You cannot use the bible to validate the bible.

Outside of the bible you will not find one word written about Jesus Christ, the son of god, miracle worker.

You will not find one word written about this man until no sooner that 20 years after his death.

Not one word.
These historians - Tacitus, Pliny the elder, and Josephus wrote of Jesus. And you must not understand how history works, as most of what we know of every figure/event in ancient history was generally written hundreds of years later. Do you believe Alexander the Great existed?
 
And what did I say except something that any adult would say to someone who is 12 and posting at midnight. I don’t think this is correct. Sorry!!! So adults are your equal, Annabea?

P.S. Annabea, what comment (that I stated) are you refering to when you said “the way you dealt with learning my age”?
Well, how you answered (forgive me, I forgot who) the atheist from one of the forums I’m on. You’re answer to how he replied, both of you, were acting quite immature. At 12, I am overqualified to post at midnight, especially during the summer.
When I am talking and debating with adults I like to be treated as an equal. I do not like to be treated as an underdog who knows nothing. I don’t see why you can’t get over the fact that I am not being disrespectful by wanting to be treated as you would treat anyone else.
 
Thank you ParkerD, I’m glad to see someone up for a civilized debate. 🙂

Ok rinnie, I’ll play ball.

I will accept that you don’t listen to theories, logic, reason and reasonable arguements. I will accept that you place your short existance on this earth in the hands of someone which according to the laws of nature, logic and reason does most likely not exist, and I will accept that you won’t ever change your opinion on that.

But I will not accept this to be taught in schools of theories, logic, reason and reasonable arguements, I will not accept that children are taught this from young age and indoctrinated with theories we would never have if it wasn’t for the steady overinterpretation of ancient text of dubious credibility, and I will most certainly not accept the christian version of Sha’ria law with features such as the murder of abortion doctors.

As long as we agree on that, I’m a happy man. ;p

I have been a christian all my life save the few last happy months, and I’ve never felt so alive.

Edit: to the guy above me, could you please translate that? I don’t speak smiley.
Then you will not get to first base with me in the game. Because I believe that we also have the freedom of speech to preach about our God, You can preach about the devil all you want, bring God in and you raise all kinds of hell.

And I will not accept the murder of babies either by your abortion doctors who have rights, but take them off of inocent baby’s who do not have a say. So sorry you are not even in the game with me. Murder is not acceptable for any reason. They took Jesus Christ out of schools and look they have replaced him with guns, drugs, etc. Sorry I will never agree to not be able to talk about him, and let kids learn about him. They have the right to know about him just like they do any other kind of history. But sex ed you love to bring that in… Look at the world. When you take God out, the devil comes in. ITs proven all over the world. Don’t need no theory for that one. ITs proven!:mad:
 
Well, how you answered (forgive me, I forgot who) the atheist from one of the forums I’m on. You’re answer to how he replied, both of you, were acting quite immature. **At 12, I am overqualified to post at midnight, especially during the summer. **When I am talking and debating with adults I like to be treated as an equal. I do not like to be treated as an underdog who knows nothing. I don’t see why you can’t get over the fact that I am not being disrespectful by wanting to be treated as you would treat anyone else.
I think there are guidelines on CAF that’s why I ask. And, it’s you who is being immature, I have stated nothing rude or unkind. I told that young man who accused me of something I did not do to get an attitude adjustment, because he had no right to make assumptions about me. Do not involve yourself in this matter (it is between him and me).
 
Then you will not get to first base with me in the game. Because I believe that we also have the freedom of speech to preach about our God, You can preach about the devil all you want, bring God in and you raise all kinds of hell.

And I will not accept the murder of babies either by your abortion doctors who have rights, but take them off of inocent baby’s who do not have a say. So sorry you are not even in the game with me. Murder is not acceptable for any reason. They took Jesus Christ out of schools and look they have replaced him with guns, drugs, etc. Sorry I will never agree to not be able to talk about him, and let kids learn about him. They have the right to know about him just like they do any other kind of history. But sex ed you love to bring that in… Look at the world. When you take God out, the devil comes in. ITs proven all over the world. Don’t need no theory for that one. ITs proven!:mad:
Yes, you have the freedom of speech to preach about your god and I would fight to defend that right. Still, I have the freedom of speech to preach against your god. I don’t preach about the devil, I doubt his existance just as much as I doubt god’s.

I have never stated my view on abortion. These aren’t my doctors. Jesus Christ isn’t out of school, children still learn of religions, but to be able to teach things as a fact they need to be – facts. Where are the guns and drugs in school? This must be American, I’ve never seen it in Norway. Jesus as a historical person is not proven, and it would be doubtful to call it history, but Christianity is taught along with the other religions.

I’m unsure what to say about the last part. I cannot see that it’s proven, and I haven’t seen any devil.
 
Perhaps God has answered your prayer and led you here. 😉

You could learn much from the Catholic Faith. It is an ocean of knowledge. It contains the fullness of Truth that your Protestant church lacked. Catholicism is not opposed to science. It believes the two compliment each other. You can go to the Apologetics section, do a search, and see that there are many threads about evolution and how the Church has stated evolution can be compatible with the Faith.

Stick around and ask questions. Visit the other sub forums, like Apologetics.
Hehe. ;p

I know you don’t agree with me, but do you see my point though?

Anyhow I will look around, thank you, but I need to get some sleep right now. I got exams tomorrow.
 
Everything did not occur by accident there is order in the universe that make it how it is. I dont know where you get that “by accident”. And what is so great about religion answer “god did it”? I much better prefer the plausbiles, interesting and elegant scientific explanations like bigbang, cyclic universe, evolution. Wich are actual answers, "god did it’’ is not even an answer, is just saying we dont know in another way. I recommend this video(wich is hillarious):youtube.com/watch?v=IVbnciQYMiM
What caused the bang? what stared the cycle of the universe, how did the first life being to so that there is evolution.

I heard a sory about a scientist that met God and said we don’t need you any longer we can do and make every thing you did now. God said ok make a tree. the scientist reached down grabbed a hand full of dirt. God asked what he was doing the scientist said I’m going to make a tree. God said not with that dirt its mine make your own dirt.

All thing traced back lead to God. For he is the beginning.

oh and one of my favorite lines from The movie “STAR WARS”

DARTH VADER " I find your lack of faith disturbing"
 
I think there are guidelines on CAF that’s why I ask. And, it’s you who is being immature, I have stated nothing rude or unkind. I told that young man who accused me of something I did not do to get an attitude adjustment, because he had no right to make assumptions about me. Do not involve yourself in this matter (it is between him and me).
Guidelines saying that 12 year olds have to go to bed before 12 o clock?
 
Yes, you have the freedom of speech to preach about your god and I would fight to defend that right. Still, I have the freedom of speech to preach against your god. I don’t preach about the devil, I doubt his existance just as much as I doubt god’s.

I have never stated my view on abortion. These aren’t my doctors. Jesus Christ isn’t out of school, children still learn of religions, but to be able to teach things as a fact they need to be – facts. Where are the guns and drugs in school? This must be American, I’ve never seen it in Norway. Jesus as a historical person is not proven, and it would be doubtful to call it history, but Christianity is taught along with the other religions.

I’m unsure what to say about the last part. I cannot see that it’s proven, and I haven’t seen any devil.
You many not believe in the devil but trust me he believes in you. Jesus Christ said you are either with me or you are against me. Its as simple as that. If you feel that you need to preach against God you are against him. Don’t need a rocket scientist to figure out that one. If you preach against God you are doing the works of the devil. rather you believe it or not. In the public schools now they have taken prayer out of school. And you should see where it is today. It did not come from being American, it came from the devil. Trust me it has happend and it is not pretty. Right is wrong wrong is right. Maybe it has not happend in Norway yet, but keep it up, Keep trying to make room for the devil. He will come trust me, and you will see what can happen. Then you will be sorry. What is so wrong about teaching kids about being kind, loving eachother being Christlike. What is it about Jesus Christ that bothers you so much. He was the perfect example of Goodness, Love, what happines could be. Why do you work for the darkness, hate, because when you oppose Jesus Christ thats what you do.
 
oh and one of my favorite lines from The movie “STAR WARS”

DARTH VADER " I find your lack of faith disturbing"
Probably not nearly as disturbing as I find your blind faith in a religion based on a book that contains so many falsehoods.

One of my favorite lines from Starwars is, “Hooky religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side kid”
 
=Annabea;5265649]To all supposed superior beings. There is no backbone proof. As in evolution say, we have some backbone proof. I do not know why we are here. I do not know how we god here. I do not know why there are so many religious in which every person in them is claiming that they are right. I think you get the basic idea of “I dont know” when we are talking about this.
Evolutation as an FYI has not provided a single example of “something” turning into “something else.” By this I do not mean that they have not been able to make a fly with three eyes, rather no fly has ever become a Beetle for example, and no money a human!

I will answer you’re question why we are here and we can then work backward’s.

Question: ‘Why didn’t God just Create us in heaven and avoid earth?”

Wonderful question friend 👍

God certainly could have done this, so why didn’t He?

It has to do with What and Who “God” is.

Simply put “God is all and only everything Good – Perfectly.”

OK, and?

And this means that among the long list of “Good things” that God is and must be are the attributes of perfect Fairness and Perfect Justice.

In reviewing the wonderful story of Creation found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter One, we notice two very interesting things.

In verse 26 we are told that “God Created man in His own image and likeness” [More on this in just a bit.]

In verse 31 we are told that man was Created on the sixth and Final Day of Creation.

Before we discuss why this is, let’s go back and address in what way (or ways) humanity is Created in the very image of God. This is necessary because it supplies the basis for answering you’re question.

So we have already supplied a brief description of God, but admittedly a very brief one. So allow me to ask a question. Besides Jesus, has any human person actually seen God “face to face?” Noah, Abraham and Moses saw “manifestations” voices, fiery – bushes, clouds, and “the wind,” but I can’t recall anyone actually seeing “The Father – Yahweh God” face to face.

Peter, James and John came closest at the “Transfiguration” of Jesus.

**
The point I’m leading to is why is this? The answer is “Because God is Spirit” and thus cannot be seen except by other Spirits, such as the angels. **

God in Creating humanity has gifted each of us with “part of Himself.” We, like our God have a mind, an intellect, and a freewill. We also have a soul that animates these attributes as well as our physical bodies. That is to say, it is the human soul that gives us life.

No other creature, nothing else in the entire Created Universe, is so blessed.

So then we ask, why are we so blessed? Why are we Created in the image and likeness of God?

The answer to that question also the answer to you’re query.

It is necessary to understand both how we are “made in the image and likeness of God,” as well as why.

Let’s answer the “how first.”

Quantify for us “your mind.” No, not your “brain” which is physical, but your mind. How big, what shape, what color, what does it look like. We can’t because while we can prove that “main, intellect, and freewill” exist, they can’t be seen, measured, (physically) touched or smelled. Why is this? It is because all of these attributes are “Spiritual” just as are Gods same attributes. God’s are Perfect, while ours are very imperfect!

The reason God did not place us directly in heaven with Him relates directly as to why God Created us in the first place and why God has blessed us with these specific attributes.

The answer lies in the words found at the end of the story of Creation for each of the six days. “It was good.”

It was so GOOD in fact, that God Willed to be acknowledged and thanked for Creating “such goodness.”

**No other Created thing, no other Creature, only humanity held the possibility of doing this. **God desired this to such a degree that He wanted the thanksgiving to be sincere and from the mind, intellect and freewill that he placed in each of us. In other words, God desires that we come to this conclusion based on our ability to freely do so, or to freely choose not to do so.

“Heaven” is the reward for those who hear, know and do so; “Hell” is for those who freely choose not to do so. Not so differently than: Mk. 2: 27 “ And he said to them, ‘The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; “ in the same way heaven is made for man, not man for heaven. Thus there is a price that has to be “paid” [no, on our own merits we CANNOT earn heaven.]

Mt. 13: 10 “Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”

Love and prayers,

Pat
 
You know I gotta go. Just hearing people talk about not believing in Christ gives me the creeps. Its like when you talk to a atheist you can feel nothing but bad vibes. Nothing but hate, deep cold darkness. Gotta roll. going back to prayer. Gotta go back into the light. The darkness is not for me!
 
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