HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[mikeledes]

So no “loving assembly needed.”? We are a new creation. We don’t complete this by doing good, we fulfill it by living it out. If God created us to do good works, that means we have to do them. Or do we become robots that will automatically do these works and never sin? God gives us the call to to good works, but we have to respond by actually doing them. Not doing them is disobeying our call and we will be held accountable. Also, please read Romans 8:17 where it puts suffering with Christ as ONE CONDITION FOR GLORIFICATION (Key word “if”). We have a birthright to glorification by becoming a new creation by grace through faith in Christ alone, but we must fulfill the call to righteousness that comes with being a new creation by keeping the commandmenst and doing good, lest we do like Esau who exchanged his birthright for a morsel of food and when he wanted to inherit, he could not.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

So you’re right Apophasis! There is no loving assembly needed. All we have to do is press the on button and keep it on.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

We are a new creation by the grace of God through faith in Christ alone. But what does being a new creation entail? Do we simply rest on the fact that God made us a new creation when we were justified?

We all know that all humans are created by God, though all are not a “new creation.” On a purely biological level, we are created to do certain things in order to keep ourselves alive. For example, we are created to breathe oxygen (lungs, mouth, nostrils) and we are created to eat food and drink (mouth, stomach, intestines, etc.). If we do not fulfill these functions we were created to do, we will die. Similarly, when we become a new creation by grace through faith, we are created to do good works. This is not an option, it is an obligation. If we fail to fulfill this function of being a new creation, we will not be glorified (i.e. inherit eternal life). That is why the Bible consistently tells us that our justification must bear fruit in good works (Colossians 1:10, John 15:2, 2 Peter 1:8-11, Matthew 3: 8-12, 1 Timothy 6:18-19).

This does not mean that God’s workmanship is incomplete. That’s like saying that God’s workmanship (physical creation) is incomplete because I actually have to do something in order to stay alive, in order to keep the gift of physical life God has freely given me (i.e. look for food and eat it). Similarly, when God made us a new creation by his grace through faith, he gave us everything we needed in order to live in righteouness, to keep the righteous decrees of His commandments:

Romans 7:4

“Therefore, my brethren, you have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another - to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.”

Romans 8:3-4

“… God did by sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin; He condemned sin in the flesh, That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

John 15:5

“… He who abides in Me and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.”

But just because we are newly created to bear good fruit does not mean it happens automatically. That involves an act of the will, an action. The Bible clearly warns Christians not to be unfruitful, merely relying on their justified status obtained by grace through faith for inheriting eternal life (i.e. James 2:24). Like Abraham, we are all called to fulfill the call we received in our justification to perform righteous acts (James 2:21-23). Remember the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30). It warns us to use the gifts God has given us for His greater glory or we will suffer eternal damnation. If that is just talking about gifts other than the gift of righteousness, then you can only imagine what will happen to those who received the gift of righteousness through faith, but did not perservere in conforming their lives to this gift by walking in righteousness and thus bearing fruit (good works). John 15: 1 and 6 clearly states what will happen to those “in Christ” who do not bear fruit, and it isn’t inheriting eternal life.

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. I will not have access to the internet tomorrow (wednesday) , but I will return, God willing, on Thursday.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Dear Aphophasis,

Our works and our faith ultimately justify us. If we trust in works or faith alone and without the other, we have a false hope.

The Catholic Church has always taught this for two reasons:

1. The Bible teaches it:

“‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’” (Matt. 7:21).

“‘Why do you call me “Lord, Lord,” and not do what I tell you?’” (Luke 6:46).

“For he will render every man according to his works . . .” (Rom. 2:6-8).

“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” (Rom. 2:13).

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27).

“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?” (Jas. 2:14).

“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (Jas. 2:17).

"But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . .Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? (Jas. 2:18-20).

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:24).

1. The Early Church believed it:

“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words." Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30 (A.D. 98).

“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31 (A.D. 98).

“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32 (A.D. 98).

“Now I beseech thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to add [speed] to thy course, and that thou ever pray for all men that they may be saved, and that thou demand things which are befitting, with all assiduity both of the flesh and spirit. Be studious of unity, than which nothing is more precious. Bear with all men, even as our Lord beareth with thee. Show patience with all men in love, as [indeed] thou doest. Be steadfast in prayer. Ask for more understanding than that which thou [already] hast. Be watchful, as possessing a spirit which sleepeth not. Speak with every man according to the will of God. Bear the infirmities of all men as a perfect athlete; for where the labour is great, the gain is also great.” Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 1 (A.D. 110).

“Look ye to the bishop, that God also may look upon you. I will be instead of the souls of those who are subject to the bishop, and the presbyters, and the deacons; with them may I have a portion in the presence of God! Labour together with one another, act as athletes together, run together, suffer together, sleep together, rise together. As stewards of God, and of His household, and His servants, please Him and serve Him, that ye may receive from Him the wages promised. Let none of you be rebellious. Let your baptism be to you as armour, and faith as a spear, and love as a helmet, and patience as a panoply. Let your treasures be your good works, that ye may receive the gift of God, as is just. Let your spirit be long-suffering towards each other with meekness, even as God is toward you. As for me, I rejoice in you at all times.” Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 6 (A.D. 110).

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Thank you. You just defined your perception of “grace.” I don’t agree with it, but thank you for the definition. Although I do agree with you that “grace” is a power, we part as to who actually exercises it and for what reason.Actually, Scripture reveals to us that the conviction of sin is the work of the Holy Spirit in the world (John 16:8), not a “power He gives us.”

According to your definition, then, “grace” is a divine “power” bestowed on you to “turn to Christ” and to continue to work out your salvation. But the Apostle Paul emphatically states, when writing to the believers in Ephesus, that “BY GRACE you have been saved THROUGH faith…” (Eph. 2:8). He doesn’t say, “by the “power” of grace,” your are “being saved,” but rather by “BY GRACE” itself you “have been saved,” and this “through faith.”

“By grace,” meaning that through the once-for-all sacrificial work of Christ on the cross it’s GOD, not us, who now has the power and the freedom to save, completely, ALL who personally trust in the Person and sacrificial work of His beloved Son (see John 3:14-18).

Yes, I agree that the source of divine grace is the shed blood of Christ, but the power of grace is exercised by God Himself who, through the cross, now has the power to forgive ALL sins and save forever (i.e., apart from personal merit - any good works) those who simply put their faith/trust in the Person and work of His beloved Son on their behalf. He is able (has the power through the cross) to save “BY GRACE” (unmerited favor) those who believe (i.e., “through faith”), because there is plenty of redemption in the blood.

So, according to the Scriptures, grace is not a power bestowed on you by God, but the powerful means BY which God saves all who will simply believe the message concerning His Son - who did it all, for us. “Grace” doesn’t save - God does “by grace” all who will believe.

This is the the Evangelical perspective that I used to adhere to. However, it is severely flawed because it implies imputation.

We are not saved by a legal imputation. Id est, the legal declaration of righteousness. Luther, Calvin fell headlong into this trap.

For Luther, God declares a man righteous based solely on their faith in Christ. However, no one in the Early Church believed this. God does not simply “declare” a man righteous, rather he actually makes him righteous by infusing supernatural Grace into his sin-tainted soul (Ezek. 36:26-27, Isaiah 44:22, Acts 3:19, Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11, 2 Cor. 5:17).

Now my separated brother, you will probably argue that the Scriptures say that we are “credited/reckoned” righteous. You will use this verse to argue that we are imputed the righteousness of Christ.

Yet a study in the actual Koine Greek tells us otherwise:

Rom. 4:3 - it was “credited” to him as righteousness. The word “credited” comes from the Greek word “elogisthe” which means a book entry. God records what there actually is; He does not make a phony entry on the books to impute some sort of legal righteousness.

Rom. 5:17 - we do not receive Christ’s personal level of righteousness (which is impossible), but we are made righteous on His account by God’s mercy and the Lord’s work on the cross. The word “made” in Greek is “katestathesan” which refers to a real, actual, ontological change in the some object, in context here, the sinner’s soul.

It is utterly amazing how un-historical Evangelical Christianity is.

In fact, the belief in imputation is absolutely absent from any first-century Christian teaching. And no Church which has existed from the days of the Apostles (i.e. Coptic, Maronite, Malabarese, etc.) has ever interpreted the the Book of Romans to mean “imputation.”

Imputation rather is a novel idea. Luther appears to be the first to propagate it.

Since this is true, the Evangelical will have to argue that there was no “Christian Church” for 1500 years.

My God however is not that *weak *. His hands were not tied until Messiah-Luther was born in Eleisben!!!

Please leave Evangelicalism as I did. Stop putting your faith in an invented theolgy, but rather in the historical Church.

For we must submit to the authority of the Magisterium (Luke 10:16).

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Since you quoted my question to “gelsbern,” why didn’t you first answer it before aking me a question?

But I will be gracious enough to answer your question in an even more “fundamental” way than you asked me. Fundamentally, my salvation is never based on what I “do” or “do not do.” Such a salvation would be precarious, indeed, and would not have a divine origin, but human. But my salvation rests “in” whom I have put my faith/trust. It was, is always, and is continually based on what HE DID, once-for-all. So based on a Biblical premise regarding salvation - your question must be rendered non sequitur.

And this is all in respect to the OP’s question regarding Rom. 4:Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is **accounted **to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not **outside **of faith. If they are done **outside **of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God gives to us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

You mention that your salvation is not based on what you do or not do, however that is merely a useless protestant aphorism.

If it was true, then the Lord Jesus would be a liar when he said to “Repent (Greek action verb) and Believe (Greek action verb) the Gospel.”

 

[mikeledes]

Since Baptism surfaced in this conversation, I would just like to clarify that we are not saved by baptism. We are saved by Christ’s works on the cross through baptism. Baptism is merely the agency by which God confers His grace. Remember the woman that had the bleeding problem. She said that if she could only touch the hem of Jesus’s garment, she would be healed. She touched it (a work) and she was healed. Was it the work itself that healed her? Was it the hem? NO! It was her faith in Jesus (“Your faith has healed you.”). But God responded to her faith and blessed her through his hem. Similarly, if we are convicted of the truth of the Gospel and come to believe, God confers his grace through Baptism, not because or as a result of Baptism.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Since Baptism surfaced in this conversation, I would just like to clarify that we are not saved by baptism. We are saved by Christ’s works on the cross through baptism. Baptism is merely the agency by which God confers His grace.

Amen, Amen, Amen. Praise to the Lord Jesus

 

[apophasis]

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is **accounted **to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not **outside **of faith. If they are done **outside **of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us).

No, Paul’s is not emphasizing works AT ALL. But he specifically states that “his FAITH” is reckoned to him as righteousness, “apart from works.” Rom 4:4-6 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"Compare this with Gen. 15:6 where it says, concerning Abraham’s divine justification:"Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He (God) reckoned it (Abraham’s faith in Him) to him as righteousness."In the same way, when men put their faith in God’s promise concerning His Son, and HIS WORK on their behalf, then God reckons it (their faith) to them as righteousness (justification).

Now you can try to distort this as much as you want in order to fit your own theology, but you can’t change what God has preserved for us in His written Word. That’s the wonderful advantage of having divinely inspired Scriptures preserved and hard copied for us all to read. We can literally take His word for it, and not have to rely on man’s.

If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God gives to us).

No, we do not enter into a “system” of grace. One is saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Salvation, as well as justification, being “gifts” of God, “not as a result of works.” Your idea of men entering into a “system of grace” is just another way of presenting a “works” gospel. Another way of preaching salvation/justification based on works.

You mention that your salvation is not based on what you do or not do, however that is merely a useless protestant aphorism.

If it was true, then the Lord Jesus would be a liar when he said to “Repent (Greek action verb) and Believe (Greek action verb) the Gospel.”

“Repentance” is not a work. It’s the changing of one’s mind. Turning from unbelief to belief.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

And such motives will be revealed at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:10-15). A judgment reserved only for believers.

A judgement only for believers huh?

Well, that’s not what the Bible says:

6: For he will render to **every man **according to his works:
7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
9: There will be tribulation and distress **for every human being **who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. (Romans 2:6-10).

I think you should start taking the Scriptures at their word my friend.

 

[apophasis]

Since Baptism surfaced in this conversation, I would just like to clarify that we are not saved by baptism. We are saved by Christ’s works on the cross through baptism. Baptism is merely the agency by which God confers His grace. Remember the woman that had the bleeding problem. She said that if she could only touch the hem of Jesus’s garment, she would be healed. She touched it (a work) and she was healed. Was it the work itself that healed her? Was it the hem? NO! It was her faith in Jesus (“Your faith has healed you.”). But God responded to her faith and blessed her through his hem. Similarly, if we are convicted of the truth of the Gospel and come to believe, God confers his grace through Baptism, not because or as a result of Baptism.

God bless,
Michael

So infants can express a personal faith in Jesus?

 

[apophasis]

A judgement only for believers huh?

Well, that’s not what the Bible says:

6: For he will render to **every man **according to his works:
7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
9: There will be tribulation and distress **for every human being **who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. (Romans 2:6-10).

I think you should start taking the Scriptures at their word my friend.

I do, but in their proper context. Which is what you do not do, nor cannot do.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

No, Paul’s is not emphasizing works AT ALL. But he specifically states that “his FAITH” is reckoned to him as righteousness, “apart from works.” Rom 4:4-6 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"Compare this with Gen. 15:6 where it says, concerning Abraham’s divine justification:"Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He (God) reckoned it (Abraham’s faith in Him) to him as righteousness."In the same way, when men put their faith in God’s promise concerning His Son, and HIS WORK on their behalf, then God reckons it (their faith) to them as righteousness (justification).

Now you can try to distort this as much as you want in order to fit your own theology, but you can’t change what God has preserved for us in His written Word. That’s the wonderful advantage of having divinely inspired Scriptures preserved and hard copied for us all to read. We can literally take His word for it, and not have to rely on man’s.No, we do not enter into a “system” of grace. One is saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Salvation, as well as justification, being “gifts” of God, “not as a result of works.” Your idea of men entering into a “system of grace” is just another way of presenting a “works” gospel. Another way of preaching salvation/justification based on works.“Repentance” is not a work. It’s the changing of one’s mind. Turning from unbelief to belief.

First of all, you accuse me of distorting ther Scriptures, and yet: you ignore the context of Rom 4:4-6.

The context of both the preceding and following passages clearly show the fact that St. Paul is speaking of Mosaic Works.

After all, St. Paul himself states in this letter:

7: to those who by patience in well-doing (ergon) seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
9: There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does (ergon) good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

My brother, the word ergon in Greek means “work/to work”.

Unfortunately for your position, I’m one of those few former Protestants who happens to have a pretty good patristic library, a good grasp of Greek, and enough experience as a historian of church history to make me dangerous.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

I do, but in their proper context. Which is what you do not do, nor cannot do.

And what is exactly your explanation my brother???

You can accuse (I would say insult) me all day long, but the fact that you don’t state your position speaks volumes…

Peace my brother:thumbsup:

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Repentance" is not a work. It’s the changing of one’s mind. Turning from unbelief to belief.

That argument holds little weight, I used to use it often.

Nevertheless the original Greek shows clearly that repentance is an action verb (metanoesate).

Furthermore, again, the context of Romans 1-3 shows us clearly that St. Paul is talking about Mosaic Law:

12: All who have sinned without the **law **will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the **law **will be judged by the law.
13: For it is not the hearers of the **law **who are righteous before God, but the doers of the **law **who will be justified. (Romans 2:12-13).

21: But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the **law **and the prophets bear witness to it,
22: the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
23: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24: they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus…(Romans 3:21-24).

28: For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. (Romans 2:38).

St. Paul reiterates this in Galatians, and even Philippians:

16: yet who know that a man is not justified by **works of the law **but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, **and not by works of the law, because by works of the **law shall no one be justified.
17: But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we ourselves were found to be sinners, is Christ then an agent of sin? Certainly not!
18: But if I build up again those things which I tore down, then I prove myself a transgressor.
19: For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. (Galatians 2:16-19).

1: O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2: Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
3: Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?
4: Did you experience so many things in vain? – if it really is in vain.
5: Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? (Galatians 3:1-5).

21: Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not; for if a **law **had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
22: But the scripture consigned all things to sin, that what was promised to faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23: Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed.
24: So that the **law **was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:21-24)

4: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
5: For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith **working **(ergonae) through love.
7: You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? (Galatians 5:2-7).

1: Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is not irksome to me, and is safe for you.

2: Look out for the dogs, look out for the evil-workers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.
3: For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh.
4: Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
5: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee,
6: as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law ** blameless.
7: But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8: Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ
9: and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law****, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; (Philippians 3:1-9).**

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

No, we do not enter into a “system” of grace. One is saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Salvation, as well as justification, being “gifts” of God, “not as a result of works.” Your idea of men entering into a “system of grace” is just another way of presenting a “works” gospel.

Oh really, my dear brother, care to explain the words of Paul:

 

[heisenburg]

In apop’s defense… He’s arguement (though we do not agree) is pretty well stated. Saying he hasnt declared his logic isnt exactly accurate

However…

Apop…

You make the statement that repentance is not a work, but a change of mind. Let me ask you something. A person is at work, debating a problem he must over come. He doesnt write anything down, he doesnt touch his computer… her merely stares and thinks. Would we say he is not working? Of coarse not

Same thing with repentance. More goes on than jsut the decision to repent. People must look at what is before them and think about it. Thinking is a work as they msut weigh what they have been told and desipher for themselves. No one wakes up and jsut becomes repetant without fore thought… Some have argued that it is the holy spirit that made them make that decision, but this is not the case as God wants us to Choose him. Anyway… point, everyone that is a true christian at one point had to debate within themselves if what they are hearing is true. For some people, it takes very little time. others, years… Just like the man sitting at his computer at work, there is work going on. This would probably qualify as one of the hidden works that will be made known mentioned by Paul.

Also… in the interest of fairness… What exactly is your belief? Do you beleive romans is talking about Moral and Levitical Works? Do you feel he is only talking about Levitical works? What works exactly do you think paul is talking about in 4:5.

In Christ

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

And, yes, the choice is yours. And that choice has eternal consequeces.

Yes, and their are eternal consequences for trusting in faith alone, without good works.

24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

17: So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

(James 2:17-24).

 

[mikeledes]

There is a debate going on on infant baptism right now in another thread (Baptism … and the True Church). But let’s just say, for argument’s sake, that you are right on this matter. You still have not addressed the substance of my argument, only occasionally criticizing my choice of words or analogies. Please explain how a person “In Christ” can be cut off and thrown into the fire for not bearing fruit (good works) and abiding in Christ (John 15:2,6), if justification is an eternal status and works play absolutely no role in our glorification?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed1]

Yes, and their are eternal consequences for trusting in faith alone, without good works.

24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

17: So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

(James 2:17-24).

So? A faith without works is in fact a defective faith and therefore dead. If you were once a Calvinist you would have realized that.