Help me to learn to pray the LOTH

[Allen537]

If it really takes seminaries a year to teach people how to pray the ordinary Office, then seminary education is in a more deplorable state than I ever imagined.

Yeah, it isn’t something really difficult to learn, especially when you do it a few times a day everyday like I do (I’m in a seminary). We never even had a practium class on the LOTH. They just put us in the chapel and we learned along the way. We do have classes on the “theology” if you will, of the liturgy which includes the LOTH.

It’s actually very easy when you get the hang of of. I would however encourage people to either pick up the St. Joseph guide or to purchase an Ordo, as there are a few feasts that are not in the proper of saints itself.

 

[Allen537]

In this case, for St. Therese, there was no Proper text except for the Antiphons of the Canticle of Zechariah and Canticle of Mary. Therefore, you take the psalms and antiphons from the weekday. Only very few memorials have proper psalms and antiphons.

Thats true, but I guess if you wanted to get fancy, you could aquire a copy of the Carmelite Proper of Saints, which includes all of the Carmelite Blesseds and Saints, complete with proper anitphons and pslams and prayers for all the hours of the day.

just a thought! lol.

 

[porthos11]

Thats true, but I guess if you wanted to get fancy, you could aquire a copy of the Carmelite Proper of Saints, which includes all of the Carmelite Blesseds and Saints, complete with proper anitphons and pslams and prayers for all the hours of the day.

just a thought! lol.

No reason to do so. I happen to be not Carmelite, and so I and may others pray the Propers according to the General Roman and local Calendars.

 

[AJV]

Thats true, but I guess if you wanted to get fancy, you could aquire a copy of the Carmelite Proper of Saints, which includes all of the Carmelite Blesseds and Saints, complete with proper anitphons and pslams and prayers for all the hours of the day.

just a thought! lol.

Actually this is what I do, since I’m not bound to any one form. I have the Carmelite, Jesuit, Salesian and Redemptorist Propers and pray feasts from them when the time comes - a bit selectively, since I judge between their saints and the saint in the calendar if there is one.

Some of them are excellent (for e.g. the Redemptorist have the feast of the Eucharistic Heart, Perpetual Help and Holy Redeemer)
The Salesian Office for Mary, Help of Christians is amazing–I’m so fond of it that I pray it like a votive every Saturday after the Office of the day.

I’m trying to get hold of others like the Franciscan and the Passionist’s but it’s not easy!!

 

[mercygate]

Actually this is what I do, since I’m not bound to any one form. I have the Carmelite, Jesuit, Salesian and Redemptorist Propers and pray feasts from them when the time comes - a bit selectively, since I judge between their saints and the saint in the calendar if there is one.

Some of them are excellent (for e.g. the Redemptorist have the feast of the Eucharistic Heart, Perpetual Help and Holy Redeemer) I’m trying to get hold of others like the Franciscan and the Passionist’s but its not easy!!

Where do you get these? I would be interested in the SJ list. I use the Carthusian list also: St. Bruno: Solemnity for the Carthusians on Saturday.

 

[AJV]

Where do you get these? I would be interested in the SJ list. I use the Carthusian list also: St. Bruno: Solemnity for the Carthusians on Saturday.

I went on vacation to India last summer, so I just went to the churches and asked the priests there for a copy of theirs and photocopied it. A simple thing that took a more trouble because some either didn’t understand what I wanted and kept offered me everything from Ordo’s to missals, or were suspicious as to my motives for wanting theirs or just didn’t understand me. Example conversation:

Me: (after the usual kissing hand and pleasantries): Father, I was wondering if I could borrow a copy of your Proper for the Divine Office to photocopy it.
Priest: Yes, you can get a copy at St. Paul’s in one volume or 3 volume’s.
Me: No, Father, I have that. I wanted to borrow your Proper.
Priest: Huh?
Me: Your Proper Offices. A supplement for the saints of your Order.
Priest (still not getting it)
Me: Father, don’t you say some special prayers in the Divine Office for the Mother of Perpetual Help or St. Alphonsus?
Priest: Ah, yes, we do. But I don’t have a copy.
Me: Oh.
Priest: (priestly humour) But don’t worry about. It’s a solemnity and Holy Day and a holiday for us. We’ll give God a holiday also.

mercygate: if you pm me your email ID, I’ll see what I can send across either now or later. Today was the feast of St. Francis Borgia in the Jesuit calendar and the next ones are Ss. John de Brebeuf and Issac Jogues (which is identical to the Roman Divine office) on the 19th and on the 31st is St. Alphonsus Rodriguez, followed by All Saints and Blesseds of the Order on the 5th of Novemeber.

 

[mercygate]

I went on vacation to India last summer, so I just went to the churches and asked the priests there for a copy of theirs and photocopied it. A simple thing that took a more trouble because some either didn’t understand what I wanted and kept offered me everything from Ordo’s to missals, or were suspicious as to my motives for wanting theirs or just didn’t understand me. Example conversation:

Oi. I hear you.

I had a monkey wrench thrown into my schedule one day when I was at the office, and would not get to pray mid-afternoon prayer or Evening Prayer that day if I didn’t squeeze them in before leaving work. I called my buddy, the Catholic chaplain and asked if I could borrow his breviary. He said, “Sure! Come on over.” So I picked up his book and went to the chapel to pray the office. The ribbons were in the wrong week of the Psalter, so I moved them around. Then I went to look for the Proper and realized that HE HAD NOT YET CHANGED TO THE CURRENT BOOK and was overdue by three weeks! Does that scare you?

 

[drforjc]

I see the OCD’s have a new Proper supplement to the LOTH available (they pop up often on Ebay), but I’m O.Carm and it is almost impossible to find the official O.Carm supplement. I wonder if they are in the process of revising it to include recently canonized saints.

 

[AJV]

I see the OCD’s have a new Proper supplement to the LOTH available (they pop up often on Ebay), but I’m O.Carm and it is almost impossible to find the official O.Carm supplement. I wonder if they are in the process of revising it to include recently canonized saints.

Do the O. Carm and OCD Propers agree on the saints that are common to both calendars?

 

[drforjc]

Do the O. Carm and OCD Propers agree on the saints that are common to both calendars?

I think they do. I’ve seen some versions on ebay (that went for $$$$ of course) that stated they could be used by either branch of the order.
The one I’m seeing on ebay now doesn’t specifically state this, at least not on the product description. I’d have to see the book itself.

 

[AJV]

I think they do. I’ve seen some versions on ebay (that went for $$$$ of course)

If you ever want the OCD, you can always PM me and I’ll send to you free.

that stated they could be used by either branch of the order.
The one I’m seeing on ebay now doesn’t specifically state this, at least not on the product description. I’d have to see the book itself.

I’m wondering whether it is true or whether they were just saying that to move the product. What do you think?

 

[porthos11]

Me: (after the usual kissing hand and pleasantries): Father, I was wondering if I could borrow a copy of your Proper for the Divine Office to photocopy it.
Priest: Yes, you can get a copy at St. Paul’s in one volume or 3 volume’s.
Me: No, Father, I have that. I wanted to borrow your Proper.
Priest: Huh?
Me: Your Proper Offices. A supplement for the saints of your Order.
Priest (still not getting it)
Me: Father, don’t you say some special prayers in the Divine Office for the Mother of Perpetual Help or St. Alphonsus?
Priest: Ah, yes, we do. But I don’t have a copy.
Me: Oh.
Priest: (priestly humour) But don’t worry about. It’s a solemnity and Holy Day and a holiday for us. We’ll give God a holiday also.

Did you try asking for their Supplement?

 

[AJV]

Did you try asking for their Supplement?

Yes. Line 6

 

[porthos11]

Yes. Line 6

Ah yes, silly me.

 

[ddeluna]

Question on 10/4 Memorial of St. Francis of Assisi:

From Christian Prayer,
St Joe guide lists Proper on p.1283; for MP says, (1470) (Ant) 824
(p.1470 is the Common of Religeous, p.824 the Psalter)

For Morning Prayer:
At the top of p.1470 it says, Everything taken from the Common of Holy Men, 1448…except the following…which includes the Ant for the Invitatory, Ant for Benedictus, and Concluding Prayer.
This is how I could have prayed it?:

Invitatory Ant from the Com.of HM (not present in Memorial)
Hymn from the Com.of HM (not present in Memorial)
Psalmody from the Psalter (mandatory)
Readings/Responsory from Com.of HM (not present in Memorial)
Benedictus Ant from the Memorial (cuz it has one)
Magnificat Ant from the Memorial (cuz it has one)
Intercessions from Com.of HM (not present in Memorial)
Concluding Prayer from the Memorial (cuz it has one)

Since Common of Religeous referred me to Common of Holy Men, and HM had all required prayers, I never prayed anything from Common of Religeous (even tho the guide sent me there)

For Evening Prayer I followed this same format.

Did I do this right? I’m unsure of myself cuz the guide referred me to Common of Religeous, and since from there I was referred to Common of Holy Men, I never prayed anything all day from Common of Religous.

If I did do it right, why would the guide send me where I don’t pray?

 

[porthos11]

Question on 10/4 Memorial of St. Francis of Assisi:

Invitatory Ant from the Com.of HM (not present in Memorial)

You should have used the Invitatory antiphon from the Common of Religious (Come let us worship God, wonderful in his saints or Let us sing praise to God as we acclaim Saint Francis.) or from the Weekday.

Hymn from the Com.of HM (not present in Memorial)

Yes. You could have used the Weekday hymn as well.

Psalmody from the Psalter (mandatory)

Yes.

Readings/Responsory from Com.of HM (not present in Memorial)

Yes. You could also have used the Weekday readings and Responsory.

Benedictus Ant from the Memorial (cuz it has one)
Magnificat Ant from the Memorial (cuz it has one)

Yes.

Intercessions from Com.of HM (not present in Memorial)

Yes. You could also have used the Weekday intercessions.

Concluding Prayer from the Memorial (cuz it has one)

Yes.

Since Common of Religeous referred me to Common of Holy Men, and HM had all required prayers, I never prayed anything from Common of Religeous (even tho the guide sent me there)

For Evening Prayer I followed this same format.

Did I do this right? I’m unsure of myself cuz the guide referred me to Common of Religeous, and since from there I was referred to Common of Holy Men, I never prayed anything all day from Common of Religous.

If I did do it right, why would the guide send me where I don’t pray?

There was indeed a portion from the Common of Religious; it was the Invitatory antiphon.

But as with most memorials, it would have been permitted to take nothing at all from the commons and take all non-Proper parts from the Weekday.

 

[ddeluna]

You should have used the Invitatory antiphon from the Common of Religious (Come let us worship God, wonderful in his saints or Let us sing praise to God as we acclaim Saint Francis.) or from the Weekday.

But as with most memorials, it would have been permitted to take nothing at all from the commons and take all non-Proper parts from the Weekday.

See - this is why I love this forum! It’s filled with saints smarter than me.

Whenever I have the option of common or psalter, I go with common, which can increases the complexity, but I’m forced to learn to pray the LOTH inside out, so to speak.

THANK YOU.

 

[wmlisieux]

Okay dear friends, another question…

How exactly does praying the LOTH work when you are praying with 2 people?

In my experience, the leader reads the antiphon the first time, and then the two alternate reading the strophes of the psalms/canticle, and then both recite “glory to the father” and the antiphon the second time…

we usually skip the psalm-prayers.
the person who is not the leader reads the reading.
both recite the canticle?
intercessions are alternated beginning-response.
leader reads the prayer.
both recite the conclusion??

I have no idea if this is even close to being correct… so any pointers would really help! thanks y’all

 

[porthos11]

Okay dear friends, another question…

How exactly does praying the LOTH work when you are praying with 2 people?

In my experience, the leader reads the antiphon the first time, and then the two alternate reading the strophes of the psalms/canticle, and then both recite “glory to the father” and the antiphon the second time…

Yes. Or both can read the Psalms/Canticles straight through in unison as well.

we usually skip the psalm-prayers.

This is okay.

the person who is not the leader reads the reading.

Yes; the leader can do so as well.

both recite the canticle?

Yes, or may also be alternated.

intercessions are alternated beginning-response.

Yes. Or the leader may say both halves of each intercession straight through and the non-leader responds with the italicized response. Or the leader may say the first half of each and the non-leader reads the other half, omitting the italicized response.

leader reads the prayer.

Yes.

both recite the conclusion??

Usually, the leader says the “May the Lord bless us…” while both make the sign of the cross and the other one responds with the Amen.

I have no idea if this is even close to being correct… so any pointers would really help! thanks y’all

 

[mercygate]

Okay dear friends, another question…

How exactly does praying the LOTH work when you are praying with 2 people?

In my experience, the leader reads the antiphon the first time, and then the two alternate reading the strophes of the psalms/canticle, and then both recite “glory to the father” and the antiphon the second time…

we usually skip the psalm-prayers.
the person who is not the leader reads the reading.
both recite the canticle?
intercessions are alternated beginning-response.
leader reads the prayer.
both recite the conclusion??

I have no idea if this is even close to being correct… so any pointers would really help! thanks y’all

There is a LOT of flexibility here and whenever you come together with other people, you have to clarify what you are going to do. What you have shown here is right. So would it be right to recite the canticle antiphonally. Psalms are usually recited antiphonally, though. If one of the people is a Priest, he pronounces the final blessing.