Help re: transgender family member

[EasterJoy]

It is true that the children are the most vulnerable. No doubt in my mind though that the person who is having troubles with their gender identity is deeply troubled when family discord exists. I would offer that this really is a lose-lose situation, sadly.

In my family, the discord completely erupted it was awful. we were told we were awful for not wanting to have our children call this individual by their new name and introduce them to their new lifestyle, even though we were clear we would have our children around more when they were more mature and could understand it. Fast forward to a few family events and this transgendered family member began dressing more and more provocatively, wearing low-cut clothing and also inviting their transgendered friends to events who were also dressing quite dramatically This is what we heard from many other family members who were quite uncomfortable and shared this with us, asking for prayer. We didn’t witness it personally as we did not attend. That is an extreme case, not every person fits that mold of course.

What is fascinating for me is the complete cultural shift. When I was a young child, if one of my uncles told my dad he was showing up at a family gathering wearing a dress and wanted me to call him “auntie” my dad would have told him to forget it (maybe a few choice other words) Not only that but I would bet money everyone would have thought that was only common sense and that the request to do so was ridiculous in the first place, especially for a young child who could not comprehend such a thing. Today it is expected that we are to go along with it, and embrace it along with our young children which completely blows my mind.

Keep in mind that I live in a state in which Stu Rasmussen, a transgendered individual who has had breast augmentation, dresses as a woman, but identifies as a man with regards to pronoun, is mayor of Silverton. The city council received complaints because he violated the city council dress code when he wore clothing that was too revealing when addressing a group of kids, which the organizer said would put them in an impossible spot with regards to imposing a dress code on students. Of course the person who complained was accused of transphobia, because when it comes to attire, a transgendered person can obviously do no wrong. You can’t possibly have a problem with their plunging necklines and short-short skirts! No, you must REALLY have the problem because they are not dressing an acting according to their DNA gender!!

I cannot imagine what future historians are going to make of this age. The penduluum cannot keep swinging past common sense forever. It never does. This age is going to make past fashionable forms of insanity look like tiddly winks.

 

[billcu1]

Keep in mind that I live in a state in which Stu Rasmussen, a transgendered individual who has had breast augmentation, dresses as a woman, but identifies as a man with regards to pronoun, is mayor of Silverton. The city council received complaints because he violated the city council dress code when he wore clothing that was too revealing when addressing a group of kids, which the organizer said would put them in an impossible spot with regards to imposing a dress code on students. Of course the person who complained was accused of transphobia, because when it comes to attire, a transgendered person can obviously do no wrong. You can’t possibly have a problem with their plunging necklines and short-short skirts! No, you must REALLY have the problem because they are not dressing an acting according to their DNA gender!!

I cannot imagine what future historians are going to make of this age. The penduluum cannot keep swinging past common sense forever. It never does. This age is going to make past fashionable forms of insanity look like tiddly winks.

Well all these things have happened before. Be glad we don’t have pedastry like the ancient Greeks…yet. I checked out your Mayor. Well, IDK having been augmented to have breasts I wonder to myself sometimes, are those things functional? There is not physical difference in a man and woman breast, except the female breast has went because of hormonal balances to the next step of development. When it comes to breasts I would be interested as to whether or not it’s done by hormones or plastic surgery. Oh well. That’s just me. As the Kyrie says, “Lord have mercy”.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well all these things have happened before. Be glad we don’t have pedastry like the ancient Greeks…yet. I checked out your Mayor. Well, IDK having been augmented to have breasts I wonder to myself sometimes, are those things functional? There is not physical difference in a man and woman breast, except the female breast has went because of hormonal balances to the next step of development. When it comes to breasts I would be interested as to whether or not it’s done by hormones or plastic surgery. Oh well. That’s just me. As the Kyrie says, “Lord have mercy”.

I think he said in an interview somewhere that he’d had his breasts “done,” but I don’t know for sure and don’t really want to look it up. He’s an interesting case. They must not care what the mayor dresses like in Silverton, provided he keeps the potholes filled. Oddballs have to eat, too, it isn’t as if he shouldn’t have a job because he insists on dressing like a woman, so that’s their call, I guess.

 

[billcu1]

I think he said in an interview somewhere that he’d had his breasts “done,” but I don’t know for sure and don’t really want to look it up. He’s an interesting case. They must not care what the mayor dresses like in Silverton, provided he keeps the potholes filled. Oddballs have to eat, too, it isn’t as if he shouldn’t have a job because he insists on dressing like a woman, so that’s their call, I guess.

But they’re moving from the nightclubs and strip bars to being mayor.

 

[EasterJoy]

But they’re moving from the nightclubs and strip bars to being mayor.

I think when you get a guy on city council who keeps the potholes filled and tries to leave a few dollars in the budget when the year is over, a lot of voters would not care if he dressed like a chicken and claimed to lay eggs. They’re going to make Mr. Chicken into the mayor. Beggars can’t be choosers.

 

[Sarah_B_Good]

You have asked many questions, all of which are characterised by a lack of understanding of gender dysphoria, and I would have you know that such scepticism is a very normal and understandable reaction. I certainly fault you not in that regard. Rather than answering your questions one by one, I shall try to provide you with a better understanding of this condition and clarify anything that might elicit further questions you may have. I suggest this because all of my answers to your inquiries require at least very basic overview of the underlying theory so please to bear with. I promise that I will try the best to avoid jargon and highly technical aspects.

This is a difficult issue for most of us to even conceive of, because our own sense of gender identity is so ingrained and intertwined with our personalities and general sense of self that we cannot even imagine such a conflict could exist. Because we feel no conflict, we believe that our bodies are the determinative factor, but the truth is that our sense of self, more specifically our gender identity is a function of our brains, the development of which may cause incongruent manifestations.

I will not go into the studies, which would require lengthy explanations, but we know from such studies that male and female brains not only show functional differences, but also structural differences particularly in regard to the hypothalamus, amygdala and corpus callosum. Individuals with gender dysphoria show functional and structural differences consistent with the opposite sex of that to which they were born. There is much more to say about this, but I will leave it there for the time.

The question then focuses on treatment. How do we help these individuals?

As many others have said here, I find myself very intrigued by your obvious knowledge and experience with this issue. You offer a very unique and valuable perspective and I’m wondering if you can say a bit more about the topic.

I am very supportive of gay rights because I know many gay people and feel that I have an understanding that I simply don’t with transgendered individuals. I have met 1 transgendered person that I know of, and perhaps that’s the reason that I don’t understand this issue as well, but I would like to.

For example, I don’t understand why some transgendered female individuals would choose to have surgeries to feminize themselves, including breast augmentation but keep their male genitalia. I know for some they must wait a certain amount of time and for others they may be unable to afford the surgery, but there are some who don’t seem to want to transition all the way, which I find perplexing.

There are gay men who are quite feminine and gay women who are quite masculine who seem to feel perfectly comfortable in their own bodies, that I believe have been shown to have the different brain functioning and structure that you were talking about earlier, but who do not identify as transgendered. So what makes a person transgendered as opposed to someone who is gay?

Anything more you could say on the topic would be helpful. Thank you so much.

 

[billcu1]

As many others have said here, I find myself very intrigued by your obvious knowledge and experience with this issue. You offer a very unique and valuable perspective and I’m wondering if you can say a bit more about the topic.

I am very supportive of gay rights because I know many gay people and feel that I have an understanding that I simply don’t with transgendered individuals. I have met 1 transgendered person that I know of, and perhaps that’s the reason that I don’t understand this issue as well, but I would like to.

For example, I don’t understand why some transgendered female individuals would choose to have surgeries to feminize themselves, including breast augmentation but keep their male genitalia. I know for some they must wait a certain amount of time and for others they may be unable to afford the surgery, but there are some who don’t seem to want to transition all the way, which I find perplexing.

There are gay men who are quite feminine and gay women who are quite masculine who seem to feel perfectly comfortable in their own bodies, that I believe have been shown to have the different brain functioning and structure that you were talking about earlier, but who do not identify as transgendered. So what makes a person transgendered as opposed to someone who is gay?

Anything more you could say on the topic would be helpful. Thank you so much.

I think I might know what your asking. You are not speaking to me but you are looking at this as physiology and anatomy of the brain. And differences there that are in homosexuals and transgenders. That’s what interests me too. Am I right? I guess she will speak when she wants.

 

[EasterJoy]

You have asked many questions, all of which are characterised by a lack of understanding of gender dysphoria, and I would have you know that such scepticism is a very normal and understandable reaction. I certainly fault you not in that regard. Rather than answering your questions one by one, I shall try to provide you with a better understanding of this condition and clarify anything that might elicit further questions you may have. I suggest this because all of my answers to your inquiries require at least very basic overview of the underlying theory so please to bear with. I promise that I will try the best to avoid jargon and highly technical aspects.

This is a difficult issue for most of us to even conceive of, because our own sense of gender identity is so ingrained and intertwined with our personalities and general sense of self that we cannot even imagine such a conflict could exist. Because we feel no conflict, we believe that our bodies are the determinative factor, but the truth is that our sense of self, more specifically our gender identity is a function of our brains, the development of which may cause incongruent manifestations.

I will not go into the studies, which would require lengthy explanations, but we know from such studies that male and female brains not only show functional differences, but also structural differences particularly in regard to the hypothalamus, amygdala and corpus callosum. Individuals with gender dysphoria show functional and structural differences consistent with the opposite sex of that to which they were born. There is much more to say about this, but I will leave it there for the time.

The question then focuses on treatment. How do we help these individuals?

I don’t know how I did it, but I somehow missed this post entirely. Sorry about that.

I asked you the difference between gender dysphoria and other conditions which are similar on the surface, and you didn’t answer at all. You seem to be saying that it is our brains which make us one gender or the other, and our bodies don’t determine that at all. Where did you get that?

I can appreciate that someone may have a brain structure that does not correspond to their physical sex. Well, other patients may have a brain structure that does not allow them to have a realistic view of other aspects about themselves, either. How did we decide that one is actually the person their brain chemicals tell them they are instead of the person their DNA and physical maturation says they are, or something in-between, and when do we decide to tell the patient that they need to learn to accept that they get signals from their brain that their body and other external traits cannot be expected to verify?

When did we decide that over-simplifying their condition and trying to help them pass as something they are not is the best treatment? Do we care at all how their treatment affects anyone else, such as a four year old still maturing in his or her own gender awareness? Do we care what happens to a child whose father decides to denounce the physical gender that made his fatherhood possible at all? (This does happen.)

 

[Thorolfr]

EasterJoy;13959228**:

I can appreciate that someone may have a brain structure that does not correspond to their physical sex

. Well, other patients may have a brain structure that does not allow them to have a realistic view of other aspects about themselves, either. How did we decide that one is actually the person their brain chemicals tell them they are instead of the person their DNA and physical maturation says they are, or something in-between, and when do we decide to tell the patient that they need to learn to accept that they get signals from their brain that their body and other external traits cannot be expected to verify?

And why should someone’s external morphology and whether they are XX or XY have precedence over someone’s brain structure which might not correspond with that external morphology? It seems to me that the Catholic Church is hardly competent to make pronouncement on what someone’s gender identity should be since this is a matter of biology and psychology, not a matter of faith or morals.

 

[EasterJoy]

And why should someone’s external morphology and whether they are XX or XY have precedence over someone’s brain structure which might not correspond with that external morphology? It seems to me that the Catholic Church is hardly competent to make pronouncement on what someone’s gender identity should be since this is a matter of biology and psychology, not a matter of faith or morals.

Faith and morals are not divorced from biology and psychology.

In any event, the “external morphology” and DNA are what determine whether someone has the capacity to procreate as a male or as a female. That is about as basic as biology gets. The Church has not made a pronouncement about “gender identity.” The Church has made a pronouncement about gender itself. Those are two different things. Gender itself is not changed by so-called gender reassignment surgery or hormonal treatment. This is biology. Medical science cannot change males into females or vice versa. The Church has a reason to make definitive pronouncements about these things, since it is the Church’s duty to determine which persons may or may not enter into sacramental marriage with each other, for instance.

You are talking about a treatment that seeks to negate the external morphology entirely by surgical and hormonal intervention so that the person can present a public face that denies that aspect of themselves. The treatment does not propose both-and, but rather a life of not-this-but-that and an attitude that teaches the client to believe that their integrity rests on concealing the aspect of themselves that makes them feel untruthful. Are you saying that it is medically ethical to teach them the most comfortable way of looking at themselves, regardless of whether or not it incorporates a falsehood? I do not mean to use the word “comfort” in a flippant way here, because I realize there is suffering involved with this condition that is real and can reach a tormenting level. Going to the point of falsehood to achieve a feeling of integrity has both ethical and practical problems, though, don’t you agree? (Remember that there are people also facing charges of bigotry for refusing to concede the possibility that modern medicine can or ever ought to make gender a mutable quality.)

We are not all soul or all inner awareness, with the body being a mere suitcase of the self we can change out. Our bodies, such as they are, are also legitimately part of our identities, even when the reality is made difficult to accept because of our brain structure, our experiences, or other aspects of ourselves. A treatment which denies one reality about our biology is surely just as problematic as a treatment which denies the other.

I don’t want to seem rude, so I’m going to have to warn you in advance that this post and your reply will have to stand on its own. I don’t think I’ll be back to give any answers or clarifications, sorry. My apologies if I’ve posted anything in need of amendment. (Perhaps Xantippe, Monicad, mommy k or someone who knows me well could take care of that, if it is needed?)

 

[billcu1]

I don’t know how I did it, but I somehow missed this post entirely. Sorry about that.

I asked you the difference between gender dysphoria and other conditions which are similar on the surface, and you didn’t answer at all. You seem to be saying that it is our brains which make us one gender or the other, and our bodies don’t determine that at all. Where did you get that?

I can appreciate that someone may have a brain structure that does not correspond to their physical sex. Well, other patients may have a brain structure that does not allow them to have a realistic view of other aspects about themselves, either. How did we decide that one is actually the person their brain chemicals tell them they are instead of the person their DNA and physical maturation says they are, or something in-between, and when do we decide to tell the patient that they need to learn to accept that they get signals from their brain that their body and other external traits cannot be expected to verify?

When did we decide that over-simplifying their condition and trying to help them pass as something they are not is the best treatment? Do we care at all how their treatment affects anyone else, such as a four year old still maturing in his or her own gender awareness? Do we care what happens to a child whose father decides to denounce the physical gender that made his fatherhood possible at all? (This does happen.)

There are genetic mutations. I believe that is how God makes alterations to us. IMO. That may or may not be the case. The 3 parts of Brain mentioned is male or female in wiring. All the parts of our DNA that have not developed (I won’t get into that) and that that has been deactivated. The Reptilian, Avian and so on. Women still have the yolk sack in the womb, not used now that we once used in a “bird like” stage. I don’t want to say “bird”. We are not nor were birds. But a “Bird like” stage. Innocent. Animal like. DNA tells that story. And it’s not all. Our canine teeth are degenerating. And “vegetarian bowels” are what is there now.

 

[billcu1]

Faith and morals are not divorced from biology and psychology.

In any event, the “external morphology” and DNA are what determine whether someone has the capacity to procreate as a male or as a female. That is about as basic as biology gets. The Church has not made a pronouncement about “gender identity.” The Church has made a pronouncement about gender itself. Those are two different things. Gender itself is not changed by so-called gender reassignment surgery or hormonal treatment. This is biology. Medical science cannot change males into females or vice versa. The Church has a reason to make definitive pronouncements about these things, since it is the Church’s duty to determine which persons may or may not enter into sacramental marriage with each other, for instance.

You are talking about a treatment that seeks to negate the external morphology entirely by surgical and hormonal intervention so that the person can present a public face that denies that aspect of themselves. The treatment does not propose both-and, but rather a life of not-this-but-that and an attitude that teaches the client to believe that their integrity rests on concealing the aspect of themselves that makes them feel untruthful. Are you saying that it is medically ethical to teach them the most comfortable way of looking at themselves, regardless of whether or not it incorporates a falsehood? I do not mean to use the word “comfort” in a flippant way here, because I realize there is suffering involved with this condition that is real and can reach a tormenting level. Going to the point of falsehood to achieve a feeling of integrity has both ethical and practical problems, though, don’t you agree? (Remember that there are people also facing charges of bigotry for refusing to concede the possibility that modern medicine can or ever ought to make gender a mutable quality.)

We are not all soul or all inner awareness, with the body being a mere suitcase of the self we can change out. Our bodies, such as they are, are also legitimately part of our identities, even when the reality is made difficult to accept because of our brain structure, our experiences, or other aspects of ourselves. A treatment which denies one reality about our biology is surely just as problematic as a treatment which denies the other.

I don’t want to seem rude, so I’m going to have to warn you in advance that this post and your reply will have to stand on its own. I don’t think I’ll be back to give any answers or clarifications, sorry. My apologies if I’ve posted anything in need of amendment. (Perhaps Xantippe, Monicad, mommy k or someone who knows me well could take care of that, if it is needed?)

Thank you for participating.

 

[Sarah_B_Good]

I think I might know what your asking. You are not speaking to me but you are looking at this as physiology and anatomy of the brain. And differences there that are in homosexuals and transgenders. That’s what interests me too. Am I right? I guess she will speak when she wants.

Yes, you are. I’m sure that she has a wealth of information and knowledge with her experience, but you’re absolutely right. I’m sure she will say more when she feels it is appropriate to do so.

I’m sorry Brygida, I did not mean to be pushy.

 

[mommy_k]

There have been scholarly studies that attest to the fact that these operations do not fully alleviate the suffering for the gender confused.

There are also several other mental illnesses that show differences in brain structure/and or chemical makeup. Lobotomy was the go to treatment with some of these patients when the science was young.

There are many other flaws in the treatment of psychiatric patients in thepast that are too numerous to list here. Some have been determined as unethical… As science discovers new treatments, there are always those who are used as pioneers to their detriment and this is how I view gender reassignment surgery.

As a Catholic, I am to show all who suffer from an illness mercy, however, I am also called to protect my children for the negative behaviors that result from illness. I would not have someone with a lung disease cough all over my children, and i would not expose a young child to the negative effects of any illness, as I posted upthhread.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

There are a lot of people who wouldn’t respond to a poster who accused them of saying such a repulsive and outrageous thing as you just accused me of saying. How is someone with this problem supposed to feel, reading that? This is your idea of supporting people, telling them that anyone who doesn’t believe it is possible for a man to become a woman or vice versa really despises them and hopes they kill themselves? You’re telling them that someone who only accepts that they are painfully confused about their gender but does not accept the idea they are really a gender that in reality they can never be does not accept them and therefore gives them a reason to kill themselves, as surely as if they were pushing them over a cliff?!? You ought to be ashamed of yourself!!

That you didn’t intend anything doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a negative impact.

Telling transwomen to man up and degrading them is actually quite a common thing. For outrageousness you equated transitioning with murder.

You are saying the end justifies the means, then? If someone can’t accept an aspect of who they are, then lie to them and tell them you can make them into someone else they’d rather be, and then they won’t commit suicide?

What about people who have body dysmorphic disorder? If you send them to a plastic surgeon to have their faces remade, does that fix their crippling anxiety about their appearance? No, it doesn’t. Why? *Because their problem wasn’t that they were ugly! *Their problem is that they are obsessed with the idea that they are ugly. Lying to them does not solve their problem. Giving in to the idea that they are right about their looks and everyone else is wrong doesn’t solve the problem.

I agree that others ought to go to great lengths to avoid shunning or practicing discimination against someone suffering from this kind of confusion about their gender. There is no excuse for demeaning someone for suffering from this kind of issue.

I cannot agree that supporting the pretense that someone’s gender can be changed is a moral choice. Objectively speaking, it is a lie. I can totally believe that they believe what they believe, but a person’s self-concept about their identity is not infallible or even immutable. More to the point, complicity with a false pretense does not solve the problem. Even after the experiment of transitioning, the suicide rate among these unfortunate people is still through the roof.

No, I am not saying the ends justify the means.

Transgender people are acutely aware of what their body is and that is a cause of distress.

Transgender people actually do believe that gender cannot be made to change. People who undergo chemotherapy to treat cancer still often have terrible five year survival rates compared to the general population, does that make chemotherapy worthless?

Does the church teach that suicide is a mortal sin? There certainly is doubt from what I’ve heard. You must be in full knowledge and consent for mortal sin. If someone is contemplating suicide their “full faculties” are to me in question.

As we have grown in understanding of mental illness the Church no longer categorically denies those who committed suicide a Christian burial as we understand that it can substantially diminish culpability.

What I gleamed from this that there are other medically diagnosed illnesses or conditions present in a transgendred person. There for I would give the same dignity to this person any other person suffering from something similar. I**f I had a relative that was depressed and had negative behaviors resulting from the depression, **I would guard my child from the negative behaviors.

You misunderstand, the depression is an effect, not a cause.

I don’t know how I did it, but I somehow missed this post entirely. Sorry about that.

I asked you the difference between gender dysphoria and other conditions which are similar on the surface, and you didn’t answer at all. You seem to be saying that it is our brains which make us one gender or the other, and our bodies don’t determine that at all. Where did you get that?

I can appreciate that someone may have a brain structure that does not correspond to their physical sex. Well, other patients may have a brain structure that does not allow them to have a realistic view of other aspects about themselves, either. How did we decide that one is actually the person their brain chemicals tell them they are instead of the person their DNA and physical maturation says they are, or something in-between, and when do we decide to tell the patient that they need to learn to accept that they get signals from their brain that their body and other external traits cannot be expected to verify?

When did we decide that over-simplifying their condition and trying to help them pass as something they are not is the best treatment? Do we care at all how their treatment affects anyone else, such as a four year old still maturing in his or her own gender awareness? Do we care what happens to a child whose father decides to denounce the physical gender that made his fatherhood possible at all? (This does happen.)

How do we determine a person’s sex if their genotype and their birth phenotype disagree?

 

[billcu1]

You say you don’t agree with and don’t want to appear to support her “lifestyle”…but you haven’t described much about what in her lifestyle you don’t agree with/support.

People who are transgender feel a mismatch between their gender identity/expressions and their physical gender.

That is not a “lifestyle.”

.

Has the church said anything about this? Transgender things.

I don’t understand gay rights. There’s not even a coherent theory. Much less realistic results. What rights to gay people not have that heterosexuals do? They can vote.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Father Vincent Serpa is a contributor here on this website under the “Ask An Apologist” forum and here was his answer to a question (cut-and-paste) when someone asked about transgender individuals:

Hi,

Attempting to change the sexual appearance of one’s body because of one “feelings" is like trying to make a square circle. Better to go with what God has already created. Even when a person goes through all the operations and plastic surgery, one’s DNA remains what one was born with. Besides not being honest, such attempts constitute sins of mutilation of the body.

Certainly, such feelings are a cross. But when one recognizes them as such, one can offer them to the Lord as a response for His sacrifices for us and they become acts of great love.
To understand this, one must recognize how loving God is and how our very existence is all about Him.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

And how many Church teachings did he cite?

 

[lemongrass80]

Has the church said anything about this? Transgender things.

I don’t understand gay rights. There’s not even a coherent theory. Much less realistic results. What rights to gay people not have that heterosexuals do? They can vote.

You’re right, you do not understand.

 

[billcu1]

You’re right, you do not understand.

And I know several gay people, so it’s not like I don’t know what gay is. They can do all a heterosexual can in the government. If they’re talking about harassment that’s not specifically a “gay right” to not be harassed. No one should be harassed for things. I would call that a “human right”.

 

[Hatikvah]

Well, as always, love this person as yourself. But rebuke their sin (Luke 17:3).

Also, it is your daughter, who you love and raise, so you must “assert your dominance” in a sense, for her own protection.

I’ll pray for your, and God bless!