Hermaphodites transexuals and gays unknown

[Bookcat]

The question I was asking is how does that quote shed light on the subject in question. I for one am not clear that it does. I would appreciate you explaining how it does, if you would be happy to do so.

"He quotes the famous saying of Simone de Beauvoir: “one is not born a woman, one becomes so” (on ne naît pas femme, on le devient).

These words lay the foundation for what is put forward today under the term “gender” as a new philosophy of sexuality. According to this philosophy, sex is no longer a given element of nature, that man has to accept and personally make sense of: it is a social role that we choose for ourselves, while in the past it was chosen for us by society. The profound falsehood of this theory and of the anthropological revolution contained within it is obvious. People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being. They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves."

~ Pope Benedict XVI

But read the whole context of the quote - again he is not discussing someones struggles pastorialy he is addressing the false notion that is growing in society with the Curia.

He speaks of what is put forward today under the term “gender” as a “new philosophy”.

Where in according to that idea - sex is* not a given element in nature* but something that one can choose ourselves - and that they have the idea that the society chose for one in the past. And is noting that the “profound” falsity of such a notion. And in that theory -that idea - those who hold it then dispute that they have a “nature” already - given by their bodily identity - they do not accept their nature and they think they can choose their own gender.

We are given a nature - as a man or as a women. Yes there can be various disorders here -just as in other areas of human life - various struggles - but he aim is healing (acceptance) not changing a persons gender.

I have not followed the many posts on this thread - nor do I have much time at the moment to get into a debate here. I recalled reading this quote recently so I decided to post it for I believe it gives good light.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I have seen it about transitioning, but never SRS.

I haven’t the foggiest idea who that is and neither do the transgender people I know.

Never mind that you and the transgender people you know have not come across said writer. The book and others written by this person are self published, probably not making literary grade and not worth buying.

Below is from WebMD which has more sway. Herewith is the link but it is mostly for doctor subscribers and may require a viewer to open an account.

Sex Reassignment Surgery

Sex reassignment surgery is the ultimate goal for most transsexual patients. Criteria must be met to undergo surgery and have been outlined by the Endocrine Society.[1] They include being of legal age and using cross-sex hormone therapy for at least 1 year while participating in real-life experience as the desired gender. The patients must have participated in psychotherapy and have knowledge of costs, complications, and long-term expectations of the surgery. It is preferred that patients being treated with hormone therapy for GID have demonstrated the ability to maintain stable mental health and relationships with others as well as achieved a feeling of comfort in their gender identity. Available surgeries for transsexual patients can be extensive and quite costly. Because the procedures are not typically recognized as medically essential by insurance companies, many patients are required to pay for procedures entirely by their own means.

As for your comment in one of your posts above asking how I can consider SRS as torture, how about this long list of surgeries associated with SRS? As Havard commented, too many --ectomies!

Also from the same source

Male-to-Female Surgery Sex reassignment surgeries for MtF patients include breast augmentation, gonadectomy, penectomy, and vaginoplasty.[1] In neovagina creation, the skin of the penis in inverted to create the vaginal wall with the scrotum serving as the labia majora. Tampon dilators must be worn to maintain depth and width of the vagina until it is being used frequently for intercourse. Cosmetic surgery can create labia minora and a clitoris with neurovascular supply from the previous tip of the penis.

Breast augmentation procedures should be delayed until at least 2 years of cross-sex hormone therapy has been completed since breasts will continue to grow during this time.[1] Breast augmentation is often sought, as 50–60% of MtF individuals deem breast development to be insufficient with cross-sex hormone therapy alone.[1,14] Patients may also consider electrolysis or laser treatments to remove facial and body hair, or surgery to lessen the width of the jaw to a more feminine appearance.

Since estrogen therapy may cause an increased risk of venous thrombosis, therapy is often interrupted for surgery. It has been recommended to discontinue cross-sex hormone administration for 3–4 weeks before elective surgical intervention and for 1 week after or until complete mobilization is regained, whichever is longer.[1,14] After sex reassignment surgery, antiandrogen therapy may be discontinued, but some patients continue to use it to reduce sexual hair growth.

Add tracheal shave to the list above, which I think was overlooked.

SRS, you can say, is the ultimate surgical and medical makeover.
,

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Never mind that you and the transgender people you know have not come across said writer. The book and others written by this person are self published, probably not making literary grade and not worth buying.

Having to resort to some random person’s poorly written self-published work hardly shows that it is a standard view

Below is from WebMD which has more sway. Herewith is the link but it is mostly for doctor subscribers and may require a viewer to open an account.

As for your comment in one of your posts above asking how I can consider SRS as torture, how about this long list of surgeries associated with SRS? As Havard commented, too many --ectomies!

Also from the same source

Add tracheal shave to the list above, which I think was overlooked.

SRS, you can say, is the ultimate surgical and medical makeover.
,

And yet, nothing about people threatening suicide unless they get SRS.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Having to resort to some random person’s poorly written self-published work hardly shows that it is a standard view

And yet, nothing about people threatening suicide unless they get SRS.

It is not hard to come across in transgender affirming Internet sites, fora and news indicating, in effect, that if a transgendered person is prevented to or does not transition (to life as the opposite sex), there is no solution or outcome for the person but suicide. It is the overriding trans message being conveyed to society. The high suicide rate in the transgender population is invariably underscored, the subtext undeniable, that their families better not resist. Get on board, Mom and Dad, else you push your kid to self destruction. That is nothing less than emotional blackmail, IMO. Consider the story of 17 y.o. Josh Alcorn and his goodbye note, how left dominated media packaged the news, and LGBT demonizing of Josh’s parents.

Even if you quibble that what transgender person demand is only to transition, or access to HRT, and not SRS, can you honestly answer this question: where does transitioning lead? According to reports by medical and mental health providers, as long as transgender patients are over 18 years old, undergo the requisite psychotherapy, hormone treatment and trial period of living as the target gender, the end goal is SRS for this patient population, the final “solution,” at least for MtFs, as long as ability to pay, or insurance coverage or funds from taxpayers for said surgical cost can be obtained.
,

 

[Rau]

It is not hard to come across in transgender affirming Internet sites, fora and news indicating, in effect, that if a transgendered person is prevented to or does not transition (to life as the opposite sex), there is no solution or outcome for the person but suicide. It is the overriding trans message being conveyed to society. The high suicide rate in the transgender population is invariably underscored, the subtext undeniable, that their families better not resist. Get on board, Mom and Dad, else you push your kid to self destruction. That is nothing less than emotional blackmail, IMO. Consider the story of 17 y.o. Josh Alcorn and his goodbye note, how left dominated media packaged the news, and LGBT demonizing of Josh’s parents.

Even if you quibble that what transgender person demand is only to transition, or access to HRT, and not SRS, can you honestly answer this question: where does transitioning lead? According to reports by medical and mental health providers, as long as transgender patients are over 18 years old, undergo the requisite psychotherapy, hormone treatment and trial period of living as the target gender, the end goal is SRS for this patient population, the final “solution,” at least for MtFs, as long as ability to pay, or insurance coverage or funds from taxpayers for said surgical cost can be obtained.
,

The fact of the high suicide rate should also be pondered, not merely referenced as evidence that people ‘threaten’ to suicide.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The fact of the high suicide rate should also be pondered, not merely referenced as evidence that people ‘threaten’ to suicide.

Indeed the reported suicide rate needs be pondered. And studied.

1. Have you heard of suicide contagion? If not, let me offer this helpful exposition on the subject of contagion of suicidal behavior,

The Contagion of Suicidal Behavior

Impact of Media Reporting on Suicide

Suicide rates go up following an increase in the frequency of stories about suicide. Moreover, suicide rates go down following a decrease in the frequency of stories about suicide. A dose-response relationship between the quantity of reporting on completed suicide and subsequent suicide rates has consistently been demonstrated. Changes in suicide rates following media reports are more pronounced in regions where a higher proportion of the population is exposed. The prevalence of Internet users, with access to Internet stories about suicide, has been associated with general population suicide rates in males, but not females.

The way suicide is reported is a significant factor in media-related suicide contagion, with more dramatic headlines and more prominently placed (i.e., front page) stories associated with greater increases in subsequent suicide rates. Repetitive reporting on the same suicide and definitive labeling of the death as a suicide have also been associated with greater increases in subsequent suicide rate. Content analyses of suicide newspaper reports from six countries with different suicide rates (Austria, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Japan, and the United States) found that attitudes toward suicide in newspaper reports varied by country, and that national suicide rates were higher in countries where media attitudes toward suicide were more accepting (Hungary) and suicide completers were more positively portrayed (Japan). Conversely, national suicide rates were lower in countries (Finland, Germany, and the United States) where reporting tended to portray the suicide victim and act of suicide in terms of psychopathology and abnormality, and to describe the negative consequences of the suicide. Moreover, media stories about individuals with suicidal ideation who used adaptive coping strategies to handle adverse events and did not attempt suicide have been negatively associated with subsequent suicide rates.

…

While the complex etiology of suicidal behavior is recognized, it has become increasingly apparent that suicide contagion exists and contributes to suicide risk along with psychopathology, biological vulnerability, family characteristics, and stressful life events. Strategies to prevent suicide contagion are essential and require ongoing evaluation.

1. Further, I ask: Is it possible if not probable that the mental health profession and media, wittingly or unwittingly, contributed to the phenomenon of high suicide rate in transgender individuals? Is this just a new way to be mad?

A New Way to Be Mad

The article is about apotemnophilia, a real mental disorder whereby the desire for amputation is strong and pervasive and there are surgeons who have indulged in “helping” the patient. However, it also says that the justification to surgical amputation, absent pathology, is akin to the justification of SRS.

Clinicians and patients alike often suggest that apotemnophilia is like gender-identity disorder, and that amputation is like sex-reassignment surgery. Let us suppose they are right. Fifty years ago the suggestion that tens of thousands of people would someday want their genitals surgically altered so that they could change their sex would have been ludicrous. But it has happened. The question is why. One answer would have it that this is an ancient condition, that there have always been people who fall outside the traditional sex classifications, but that only during the past forty years or so have we developed the surgical and endocrinological tools to fix the problem.

But it is possible to imagine another story: that our cultural and historical conditions have not just revealed transsexuals but created them. That is, once “transsexual” and “gender-identity disorder” and “sex-reassignment surgery” became common linguistic currency, more people began conceptualizing and interpreting their experience in these terms. They began to make sense of their lives in a way that hadn’t been available to them before, and to some degree they actually became the kinds of people described by these terms.

1. Importantly, as I have stated, my thoughts on the moral wrongfulness of SRS are also based on the guidance of our Church. Pope Benedict warned that “when freedom to be creative becomes the freedom to create oneself, then necessarily the Maker himself is denied and ultimately man too is stripped of his dignity as a creature of God." Church teaching allows for the acknowledgment that there can be a biological reason for gender-identity disorder. But it also allows for the possibility of other dimensions to this disorder—a sociological dimension and a psychological dimension— not addressed through cross-dressing and certainly not surgical intervention.

 

[thinkandmull]

So if someone is born with both genitalia, how do we know if they are a man or a woman? The Church hasn’t spoken on this right? What about women who have “phantom” penis’s, or men who insist they have the wrong body? Has the Church said “NO EXCEPTION’S WHATSOEVER”??

 

[Rau]

So if someone is born with both genitalia, how do we know if they are a man or a woman? The Church hasn’t spoken on this right? What about women who have “phantom” penis’s, or men who insist they have the wrong body? Has the Church said “NO EXCEPTION’S WHATSOEVER”??

I don’t believe the Church has taught moral principles pertaining to any of these conditions, beyond saying that one must be capable of a marital act to marry.

 

[thinkandmull]

I think the Church has spoken of when a true man wants to change his gender, for example. But what if he truly feels like he has a “ghost” vagina?

Maybe Pope Francis doesn’t wants to get involved

 

[Rau]

I think the Church has spoken of when a true man wants to change his gender, for example. But what if he truly feels like he has a “ghost” vagina?

Maybe Pope Francis doesn’t wants to get involved

I’ve not heard of gender changing, only changing body to align with gender perception. I stand by my answer. I don’t expect there to be teaching any time soon related to gender dysphoria given the subject is so poorly understood.

 

[TheSeeker2014]

So if someone is born with both genitalia, how do we know if they are a man or a woman? The Church hasn’t spoken on this right?

This part of your quote, the only person who can truely tell what gender they are is the person who is born with both-intersexed. Gender goes beyond the physical aspect of the body. Always has. One reason why more girls, like and act differently with things than most boys. (yes there are exceptions with them not being gay liking something, that is more associated with the opposite gender)
(Speaking of Catholic)
The Church as spoken upon this circumstance to an extent, That they can get married if they have the possible ability to have children. Other than that… everything else is normal in their lives when it comes to the Church life I think. Someone correct me if I am wrong on that.

 

[thinkandmull]

But before they get married, a hermaphrodite must have one of the genitals removed/fixed, right?

 

[Rau]

But before they get married, a hermaphrodite must have one of the genitals removed/fixed, right?

Is that a medical question?

 

[TheSeeker2014]

But before they get married, a hermaphrodite must have one of the genitals removed/fixed, right?

I do not see how it would be a have to… God made them that way and if they feel comfortable having what they have… why surgery?

 

[TheSeeker2014]

Something I wanted to share about transgender that was recently found. Transgendered people seem to have white and grey matter differences in the brain and it shows that the brain is not completely female or completely male unlike cisgender people. Maybe it is a case of intersexed people. Their is now physical evidence of biological of both genders being presented physically in the body.
Take the link and run with it.
This white and grey matter of the brain is one aspect of the structure of the brain. A male brain verse a female brain are structurally different and can be identified by experts. Transgenders do not show completely just one gender or the other.
testtube.com/dnews/temp-slug-episode-2021/?usera=14d2001c250627-07279239dad446-4f506c-140000-14d2001c2518ff&sn=fb

Thoughts? or need more info on the matter?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

It is not hard to come across in transgender affirming Internet sites, fora and news indicating, in effect, that if a transgendered person is prevented to or does not transition (to life as the opposite sex), there is no solution or outcome for the person but suicide. It is the overriding trans message being conveyed to society. The high suicide rate in the transgender population is invariably underscored, the subtext undeniable, that their families better not resist. Get on board, Mom and Dad, else you push your kid to self destruction. That is nothing less than emotional blackmail, IMO. Consider the story of 17 y.o. Josh Alcorn and his goodbye note, how left dominated media packaged the news, and LGBT demonizing of Josh’s parents.

The attempted suicide rate for transgender people is much higher than the background rate and the attempted suicide rate for those with unsupportive family is even higher, that is just truth.

Even if you quibble that what transgender person demand is only to transition, or access to HRT, and not SRS, can you honestly answer this question: where does transitioning lead? According to reports by medical and mental health providers, as long as transgender patients are over 18 years old, undergo the requisite psychotherapy, hormone treatment and trial period of living as the target gender, the end goal is SRS for this patient population, the final “solution,” at least for MtFs, as long as ability to pay, or insurance coverage or funds from taxpayers for said surgical cost can be obtained.
,

Nice goal post moving.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The attempted suicide rate for transgender people is much higher than the background rate and the attempted suicide rate for those with unsupportive family is even higher, that is just truth.

If parents or family members of a transgender person do not support his or her transitioning, are you placing blame on the family for the suicide attempt(s)?

Nice goal post moving.

The question"Where does transitioning lead?" is reasonable.

According to information from medical providers, SRS is more than not, part of, or end of, transitioning.

Psychiatrist Dr. George Brown, a member of the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria and with the assistance of Case Western Gender Identity Clinic) studied gender dysphoric patients and wrote a paper (Bioethical Issues in the Management of Gender Dysphoria) where he said patients are frequently driven and manipulative, putting physicians on defensive when SRS is refused. The conclusion reached is revelatory.

Gender dysphoric patients as a heterogeneous group of individuals express varying degrees of dissatisfaction with their anatomic gender and the desire to possess the secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex. Only a minority of these patients, said Dr Brown, can be considered on the extreme end of a spectrum of subjective dissatisfaction with assigned anatomy with the societally sanctioned gender role as transsexual.

Another doctor indicated that transsexualism has led to the most tragic betrayal of human expectation in which medicine and modern endocrinology and surgery have been engaged. Transsexual people have become a frenetic preoccupied with obtaining cross-gender hormones and SRS, often to the exclusion of progressing through school, building relationships, or maintaining employment, because of their quest for an all-encompassing somatic treatment.

When presenting for treatment, gender dysphoric patients are already convinced that only hormones and surgery will end their plight. Of the 17 gender dysphoric patients Dr Brown studied, five were already on hormone pills which were by the way illicitly obtained. Not all whose chief complaint is “I want SRS” are transsexual. In fact, there is a list of differential diagnoses (12) to rule out, among which are Body Dysmorphic Disorder (a male who pleads to be castrated may be having on an unconscious level significant castration anxiety), Personality Disorder, and even the finding of malingering. This means a number therefore do not meet the criteria for transsexualism. In addition, there may be patients with mental retardation or subnormal intellectual functioning who are unable to fully consent on consequences of SRS and its irreversibility, or history of schizophrenia or bipolar illness, or poor medical condition, all contraindicating SRS. Yet, each one who claims to be “gender dysphoric” maintains that hormones and SRS are necessary for his dysphoria.

Reporting of news like that of Josh Alcorn’s suicide is heavily slanted to produce emotional appeal, casting blame on parents and society. The big picture is being missed altogether. I hope you read the links I provided to Rau, one about the contagion of suicidal behavior and the (irresponsible) role of media, and the other link about the currency brought about by the mental health profession of their relatively new conceptualization of transsexualism and gender dysphoria, giving an interpretation that people grab for their confusing experience, and justification for a very radical intervention (surgery) to transsexualism. In fact, there are many physicians (surgical and non-surgical specialties) who deem removal of healthy organs highly unethical.

Social construction of sexual orientation, the 1973 declassification of homosexuality in the DSM, and success of the homosexual movement in legalizing so called gay marriage have facilitated the transgender push for somatic treatment of a psychiatric illness via medical (HRT) and surgical intervention. With the organization of WPATH, transitioning and SRS became standards of care!

Think about the points I raised, Joie, when you argue for the “truth” of the high suicide rate in the transgender population. Before the availability of endocrinological and surgical methods to “treat” transsexualism, there was not a 40 or 50 % of transsexuals attempting to commit suicide. It would not surprise if many or most managed and might continue to manage with psychotherapy and anti-depressive medication had developments been different.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Oops, here is the link to Dr. Brown’s paper.

Conclusion

Clinicians faced with the evaluation and treatment of gender dysphoric individuals are plagued with difficult bioethical issues. While we, as a medical community, have no qualms about genital surgery for inborn biological errors, e.g. ambiguous genitalia conditions and pseudohermaphroditism (49) , th e same detached approach has not been applied to altering the anatomy of transsexuals. Since we have found no consistent biological (hormonal, genetic, anatomic) marker or defect, the etiology is presumed to be psychogenic/developmental by default, and the appropriateness of radical surgical treatment for functional disorder is called into question (50). “Above all, do no harm” is to be heeded with special care by mental health professionals facing both a lack of knowledge and an abundance of ethical dilemmas. This could, and should, lead to the restriction of SRS to centers involved in a multiuniversity research project aimed at addressing the relevant extant clinical questions (22,32).

In spite of proclamations that nothing else holds promise for the treatment of transsexualism other than SRS (25), less invasive interventions have been shown to be useful for some patients, e.g. expressive group psychotherapy (42), hormonal treatment in conjunction with psychotherapy (51), and behavior therapy (52). Ethical dilemmas related to denial of SRS continue, such as the reported increased rate of suicide attempts and withholding treat ment considered by some experts to be life saving. Controlled, prospective studies comparing treatment modalities are needed.

Is SRS then, an elective cosmetic procedure as most insurance carriers claim? Is it the treatment of choice for selected gender dysphoric patients, or a well-intentioned mutilation tantamount to mayhem? There are no generalizations to adhere to, no convenient “rules-of-thumb.” But there are patients with severe, pervasive disturbances in their sense of self who seek out those health care professionals who are willing to confront their own ethical and moral standards in an attempt to provide appropriate care. Unaddressed negative countertransference responses to gender dysphoric patients, who are often manipulative and driven, may interfere with clinical decision-making and contribute to the suffering these patients endure (53).

 

[InSearchofGrace]

A sentence in the fourth paragraph of my post above should read

…Transsexual people have become a group frenetically preoccupied with obtaining cross-gender hormones and SRS, often to the exclusion of progressing through school, building relationships, or maintaining employment, in their quest for an all-encompassing somatic treatment. …

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

If parents or family members of a transgender person do not support his or her transitioning, are you placing blame on the family for the suicide attempt(s)?

The question"Where does transitioning lead?" is reasonable.

According to information from medical providers, SRS is more than not, part of, or end of, transitioning.

Psychiatrist Dr. George Brown, a member of the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria and with the assistance of Case Western Gender Identity Clinic) studied gender dysphoric patients and wrote a paper (Bioethical Issues in the Management of Gender Dysphoria) where he said patients are frequently driven and manipulative, putting physicians on defensive when SRS is refused. The conclusion reached is revelatory.

Gender dysphoric patients as a heterogeneous group of individuals express varying degrees of dissatisfaction with their anatomic gender and the desire to possess the secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex. Only a minority of these patients, said Dr Brown, can be considered on the extreme end of a spectrum of subjective dissatisfaction with assigned anatomy with the societally sanctioned gender role as transsexual.

Another doctor indicated that transsexualism has led to the most tragic betrayal of human expectation in which medicine and modern endocrinology and surgery have been engaged. Transsexual people have become a frenetic preoccupied with obtaining cross-gender hormones and SRS, often to the exclusion of progressing through school, building relationships, or maintaining employment, because of their quest for an all-encompassing somatic treatment.

When presenting for treatment, gender dysphoric patients are already convinced that only hormones and surgery will end their plight. Of the 17 gender dysphoric patients Dr Brown studied, five were already on hormone pills which were by the way illicitly obtained. Not all whose chief complaint is “I want SRS” are transsexual. In fact, there is a list of differential diagnoses (12) to rule out, among which are Body Dysmorphic Disorder (a male who pleads to be castrated may be having on an unconscious level significant castration anxiety), Personality Disorder, and even the finding of malingering. This means a number therefore do not meet the criteria for transsexualism. In addition, there may be patients with mental retardation or subnormal intellectual functioning who are unable to fully consent on consequences of SRS and its irreversibility, or history of schizophrenia or bipolar illness, or poor medical condition, all contraindicating SRS. Yet, each one who claims to be “gender dysphoric” maintains that hormones and SRS are necessary for his dysphoria.

Reporting of news like that of Josh Alcorn’s suicide is heavily slanted to produce emotional appeal, casting blame on parents and society. The big picture is being missed altogether. I hope you read the links I provided to Rau, one about the contagion of suicidal behavior and the (irresponsible) role of media, and the other link about the currency brought about by the mental health profession of their relatively new conceptualization of transsexualism and gender dysphoria, giving an interpretation that people grab for their confusing experience, and justification for a very radical intervention (surgery) to transsexualism. In fact, there are many physicians (surgical and non-surgical specialties) who deem removal of healthy organs highly unethical.

Social construction of sexual orientation, the 1973 declassification of homosexuality in the DSM, and success of the homosexual movement in legalizing so called gay marriage have facilitated the transgender push for somatic treatment of a psychiatric illness via medical (HRT) and surgical intervention. With the organization of WPATH, transitioning and SRS became standards of care!

Think about the points I raised, Joie, when you argue for the “truth” of the high suicide rate in the transgender population. Before the availability of endocrinological and surgical methods to “treat” transsexualism, there was not a 40 or 50 % of transsexuals attempting to commit suicide. It would not surprise if many or most managed and might continue to manage with psychotherapy and anti-depressive medication had developments been different.

Uh okay, you have made a bunch of accusations, and?

You say the attempted suicide rate was not that high, why do you say that? What proof do you have? Does lack of epidemiological studies in the 19th centuries of the lynching of black men show it wasn’t common?