Heterdox Teachings in Catholic Schools

[Traditional_Ang]

rwoehmke:

Quite frankly I am surprised that you are obviously a second semester freshman in this College. Why haven’t you pulled up stakes and transferred to somewhere better? I get no sense whatsoever that you have discussed either the College or your brothers high school with your parents. Are you orphans? I will say this only once. If you live on campus you and /or your parents have to be putting up at least $25,000 a year for what you are getting. You cannot afford either the money or the time to try to bring this place down or into compliance. As the anti-war folks say,“It is time to cut and run.” Write your letter to the Bishop if it makes you feel better, but get on with your life as soon as possible. There are good Catholic Schools and Universities out there. Find one and transfer those credits before you get locked in.(Many colleges require your attendence during the last year or two at the college where you will take your degree.)

rwoehmke:

I would tend to agree. I would write the letter to the Bishop, and then I would GET OUT!

This is 2006, and not 1976, and Fr. Fessio is the Provest of Ave Maria University, not the dirctor of some beleaguered Institute within a liberal catholic university whose Campus Ministry Masses weren’t licit and maybe not valid. And, Fr. Brian Mullady, O.P. is a star on EWTN and in retreats, not a beleaguered instructor at the same beleaguered Institute.

Because this is 2006, and not 1976, there are orthodox schools that Vanus Empty can go to.

I’m just listing the two people I listed because I knew them both. Neither one would steer him wrong. I believe there are better things to do than to butt heads with an obstinate heretic, and no one has a moral obligation to “tough out” a hellish situation which can only harm his soul.

Ave Maria’s Info is here:
naples.avemaria.edu/

Fr. Brian Mullady doesn’t run a University, but does do TV shows and give lectures.

Scott Hahn - St. Paul center for Biblical Theology
salvationhistory.com/

If you really want a challenge - Priests for Life has both Lay and Priestly Apostolates - And they do run a Seminary:
priestsforlife.org/

I think it might be wiser to use one of the newer options and then to send a letter to the Bishop so you can fulfill your obligations under Ezekiel 33. Personally, I think someone could do the church and this country a real good by joining Fr. Pavone and Priests for Life.

Sometimes, it’s just better to isolate the heretics and to leave them with smaller and smaller pieces of the Church.

Pan Vobiscum.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Walking_Home]

Kirane:

It is remarkable that what the Pope of Rome and the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church and the Vicar of Christ says here as quoted means nothing to you.

Here is what our Holy Father Benedict 16, has to say about Jewish conversion.

www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=46890&eng=y

 

[ChiRho79]

Thanks for the support and advice. I’ve had two theology teachers this year, one is an OSB nun and the other was a former priest who left the order to get married or something like that, and both of them have had their fair share of heretical statements.

Today, my school (the high school Vanus mentioned), had every student take a survey, and one of the questions was regarding the teachers. They said to rate them and to suggest an improvement or generally comment. My answer was this (and I quote): “They’re too liberal, except for Mr. Nadeau (hardCORE convservative, represent!)…and they should take an Oath of Fidelity to the Magesterium to ensure their unconditional acceptance of Catholic authority.”

I’m not joking about that, either. You teach at a Catholic school, you should take an Oath of Fidelity to the Magesterium. With that being said, let me move on to a statement made by the nun at my school.

We were talking about morality, and I brought up the point that the Catholic Church is infallible in matters of Faith and Morality. My teacher (OSB nun), in return, said that we don’t have to follow all of the Church’s moral teachings if we don’t accept them.

My first semester teacher (the former priest) said in a class discussion (more like a debate between him and I) that other religions are able to get someone salvation, and a few other things that made it seem like the Catholic Church was a useless thing. For instance, he said that Hinduism and those types of religions were leading to the same place as Catholicism is (because, you know, Christ isn’t necessary for eternal salvation).

I don’t know what to do, I could start something now, 7 weeks before school ends for the year, wait, or not do anything at all. It’s a tough one, I honestly admit, but I have to pick my battles.

 

[Vanus_Empty]

rwoehmke:

Quite frankly I am surprised that you are obviously a second semester freshman in this College. Why haven’t you pulled up stakes and transferred to somewhere better? I get no sense whatsoever that you have discussed either the College or your brothers high school with your parents. Are you orphans? I will say this only once. If you live on campus you and /or your parents have to be putting up at least $25,000 a year for what you are getting. You cannot afford either the money or the time to try to bring this place down or into compliance. As the anti-war folks say,“It is time to cut and run.” Write your letter to the Bishop if it makes you feel better, but get on with your life as soon as possible. There are good Catholic Schools and Universities out there. Find one and transfer those credits before you get locked in.(Many colleges require your attendence during the last year or two at the college where you will take your degree.)

rwoehmke and Traditional Ang,

Let me clear up some misunderstandings about my situation. I have not said that I would battle the heresy that is going on at my university. I gave that project up long ago. The thing I want to change is the heterdox teachings that are being taught at my brother’s high school.

In regards to my university: I am transferring to Ave Maria University in Fall 2007. Mind you, I would like to transfer as soon as possible, but there are many factors out of my control that impedes my transfer until said date. Ave Maria University is more expensive than my university. The reason I chose to attend Saint Leo University (I reluctantly told you where I attend) is because I was deceived by the administration into thinking it was a wholesome, faith-based, Catholic atmosphere. But the school seems to forget that it’s Catholic once the parents leave.

I am a commuter, and I wanted to go to a Catholic university close to home. Saint Leo was the only one. Since I live in the Tampa area, AMU is about 2 hrs away from here. So obviously, I can’t drive there. I will have to be a resident student. And of course, that costs more money.

I really hate my school. I can’t bear the fact that I will have to stay there for two more semesters. But under the circumstances, I cannot transfer to AMU until Fall 2007.

Nota Bene : the next person to reply to one of my posts, please read all of it and analyze it properly. Some of you have overlooked some key points. For example, I AM NOT TRYING TO INVOKE CHANGE AT MY UNIVERSITY, ONLY IN MY BROTHER’S HIGH SCHOOL. It is possible to change things at my brother’s school because it is fairly young school and its faculties are not fully developed.

Thank you, Traditional Ang, for your advice. It was really helpful. But again, I’m not trying to change my school. Can the Mandatum be revoked from a Catholic high school once it has been proven that heresy is being taught in its theology classes?

Another thing: I’m not writing to the Bishop to make myself “feel better.” I’m going to write a letter to the bishop about my brother’s school to CHANGE THINGS. That’s why I asked advice on what I can do to make him listen. I’m not going to write a letter to the Bishop about MY school. I’m going to write one about MY BROTHER’s school.

 

[Holly3278]

I would personally report the school to the bishop ASAP.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Kirane:

What we have here is a case of Contradictory Opposition. One is right, and one isn’t. Ether the Catholic Church has taught for the past 1970 years as these other posters have posted, or as you have posted…

Kirane:

I find this to be inconsistent. First you say to search. Then when I give you quotes similar to what the nun was preaching in a high school, you say to give it up.
The fact remains that my point remains valid that it was not a case of one single nun who is preaching such doctrine. These ecumenical discussions are being preached by more than one single nun in one single RC high school.

…Knowing a Religion’s holidays, giving that religion’s figures honor and showing how what they taught confirms the Gospel of Christ is as old as St. Paul who used that when he pointed to the “Temple of the Unknown God” in Athens and tried to convince the Athenians they were worshipping G-d, but unknowningly! (Acts 17:23)

*Then Paul stood up at the Areopagus and said: "You Athenians, I see that in every respect you are very religious. For as I walked around looking carefully at your shrines, I even discovered an altar inscribed, ‘To an Unknown God.’ What therefore you unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all that is in it, the Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in sanctuaries made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands because he needs anything. Rather it is he who gives to everyone life and breath and everything.

He made from one the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions, so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us. For ‘In him we live and move and have our being,’ as even some of your poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’

Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.

God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent because he has established a day on which he will ‘judge the world with justice’ through a man he has appointed, and he has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead."

When they heard about resurrection of the dead, some began to scoff, but others said, “We should like to hear you on this some other time.”

And so Paul left them.

But some did join him, and became believers. Among them were Dionysius, a member of the Court of the Areopagus, a woman named Damaris, and others with them. Acts 17:22-34*

St. Paul never said that someone could do OK if he “lived a good life” and that they didn’t need Jesus Christ. He only used things they were familiar with to confirm the truth of the Gospel and to help them understand the Gospel.

That’s completely different from what you’re claiming.

The “Great Commission” goes something like this:

*And he said to them, "Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Yerushalayim. (Heb. for Jerusalem) Luke 24:46-47 *

But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Yerushalayim, throughout Yehuda and Shamron, and to the ends of the earth. "Acts 1:8
Yehuda = Judea - Shamron = Samaria

And, what did our Lord say to the Canaanite woman, *“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?” Matt. 15:24 *

Our Lord definitely did not exclude the Am Yisroel from the preaching of the Gospel. On the contrary, he specifically included the Am Yisroel and the Eretz Yisroel as first and foremost. Since he wasn’t going to give His people political freedom, don’t you think he would bive them spiritual freedom?

How would leaving His people in the Old Covenant, which did not have the power to free men and women from sin, have the ability to give them that spiritual freedom?

Wouldn’t He want them to have the New Covenant so they could have the Spiritual Freedom promised in the Prophets?

And, If he wanted His people to have the New Covenant in the 1st and 2nd centuries, don’t you think that He’d want them to have that Freeing Covenant in the 21st Century?

Now, there’s the greater issue about whether we need Jesus, which I will take up in the next post.

Shalom, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Kirane:

This is from the previous post, and deals with the allegation that we don’t need the Cross of Christ in order to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is our Lord’s unyielding standard for Righteousness. I want you to pay attention, and ask yourself if you’ve known anyone who’s even come close to meeting this standard:

*I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

"It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.’ But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

"Again you have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘Do not take a false oath, but make good to the Lord all that you vow.’ But I say to you, do not swear at all; not by heaven, for it is God’s throne; nor by the earth, for it is his footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Do not swear by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black. Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one.

"You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt. 5:20-48*

Here is another standard of judgment. Do you know ANYONE who has NEVER turned a homeless, hungry or lonely person away? Do you know ANYONE who has ALWAYS had time to visit those in prison and has ALWAYS been able to care for the sick?

• "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matt. 25:31-46*

To be con., Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Con., from previous:

I’m sorry, but I don’t, not even the most Righteous Person I know of from the 1990’s, Dr. David Applebaum (who paid for the medical bills of Palestinians out of his own wallet), met either of these standards. At some point, even that Tzedeck needed G-d’s mercy and forgiveness.

If even Dr. Applebaum, who paid the medical bills of those who celebrated his murderand that of his daughter needed G-d’s mercy and forgiveness, don’t you think the ordinary decent person would also need G-d’s mercy and forgiveness?

Can’t you see how, in order to be freed from sin and death, even the most righteous of us need the Cross of Christ? And, If we don’t, why did all those Martyr’s die trying to preach it to people who killed them? If we don’t, why did Jesus then condescend to suffer as he did and die at the hands of evil men?

Or, Are you trying to say that you don’t really believe in the Cross of Christ, and that you don’t really believe hat He Rose from the Dead, and that Jesus’ Crucifixion and Resurrection aren’t the central facts to your faith?

If that’s what you’re trying to say, then this is what the Apostle St. Paul has to say:

*For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, I Cor. 15:16-22*

A friend of mine took care of AIDS patients from 1982-99 (a near fatal accident forced his retirement). At one point in his practice, his groups buried an ave. of 6 patients/week. He personally buried about 1/3 of these, often after they had been baptized at St. Mary’s, and often with NO family members present.

The only way he dealt with that pain was the certainty, “For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,” It was the certainty that, because of jesus Death and resurrection, and his power to save, he would see them again.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Vanus Empty:

I think you’re making a wise choice transfering to AMU. I believe that you’ll find that it will be worth the added expense and hastle.

I know what it’s like to work in a place you hate. One thing that’s really hard is not taking it home. You know, They’re building a Catholic town from the ground-up around the campus of the University. Have you considered taking a Sabbatical and working on the construction site for a year? If nothing else, working in a pro-Catholic environment, and making money to pay for the extra fees, can’t hurt.

I know Fr. Fessio and he’s both orthodox and caring. I know the people he hired at the St. Ignatius institue reflected that, so I’m sure that those at Ave Maria will not only be first rate scholrs, but also faithful and caring individuals…

In my case, I had to remind myself that my own tendency to stay and fight was NOT the wisest choice in your situation.
Vanus Empty:

rwoehmke and Traditional Ang,

Let me clear up some misunderstandings about my situation. I have not said that I would battle the heresy that is going on at my university. I gave that project up long ago. The thing I want to change is the heterdox teachings that are being taught at my brother’s high school.

In regards to my university: I am transferring to Ave Maria University in Fall 2007. Mind you, I would like to transfer as soon as possible, but there are many factors out of my control that impedes my transfer until said date. Ave Maria University is more expensive than my university. The reason I chose to attend Saint Leo University (I reluctantly told you where I attend) is because I was deceived by the administration into thinking it was a wholesome, faith-based, Catholic atmosphere. But the school seems to forget that it’s Catholic once the parents leave.

I am a commuter, and I wanted to go to a Catholic university close to home. Saint Leo was the only one. Since I live in the Tampa area, AMU is about 2 hrs away from here. So obviously, I can’t drive there. I will have to be a resident student. And of course, that costs more money.

Nota Bene : the next person to reply to one of my posts, please read all of it and analyze it properly. Some of you have overlooked some key points. For example, I AM NOT TRYING TO INVOKE CHANGE AT MY UNIVERSITY, ONLY IN MY BROTHER’S HIGH SCHOOL. It is possible to change things at my brother’s school because it is fairly young school and its faculties are not fully developed.

Thank you, Traditional Ang, for your advice. It was really helpful. But again, I’m not trying to change my school. Can the Mandatum be revoked from a Catholic high school once it has been proven that heresy is being taught in its theology classes?

Another thing: I’m not writing to the Bishop to make myself “feel better.” I’m going to write a letter to the bishop about my brother’s school to CHANGE THINGS. That’s why I asked advice on what I can do to make him listen. I’m not going to write a letter to the Bishop about MY school. I’m going to write one about MY BROTHER’s school.

…I don’t think people are going to read all the posts here - the best we can hope for is that they read the posts they respond to and that they try to respond more charitably than someone who’ll remain unnamed for reasons of charity. I don’t know why someone would respond to "Catholic Bashing’ without reading enough of a post to see that’s NOT what the poster had in mind. Just because we can flame each other on these boards doesn’t mean we should.

…Regarding your brother’s school - You need to get your parents involved, even if all they do is sign your complaint letters and accompany you to conferences. They’re the ones who are paying the bill and who have “Legal Standing”. Follow the advice I gave you for your university. the better documented your case is, the better. Since it’s common for students to tape lectures, have your brother tape all the lectures where teachers talk about the Faith and to have 2 or 3 people listen to the tapes, Take down the names of the Textbooks used for the religion and threology classes and photocopy the Title Pages (where the Imprimater and Nihil Obstat should be). If they aren’t there, that’s part of your case.

Document like this is a Final Paper, and the complaint has to come from your parents, even if you do all the work, and all they do is sign the cover letter.

I hope this helps. Be careful.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Kirane]

Traditional Ang:

Can’t you see how, in order to be freed from sin and death, even the most righteous of us need the Cross of Christ?

Hello TradAng:
Thanks for all the details. What you say may well be true, but I think that my point still holds: it is not just one nun in one school but there are other Catholics, some of them in high places, who hold to the teaching that a Jew may be saved.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Kirane:

Hello TradAng:
Thanks for all the details. What you say may well be true, but I think that my point still holds: it is not just one nun in one school but there are other Catholics, some of them in high places, who hold to the teaching that a Jew may be saved.

Kirane:

It’s one thing to say that G-d in His mercy and love may decide to give salvation to a particular Jew because that Jew has never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel completely presented. That has been referred to as “Invincible Ignorance”. It’s quite another to say that the Jews don’t need Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross. That contradicts the Church’s Teaching for over 1900 years.

I think the people that you’ve quoted have become confused about that difference, and this has brought them into error. This should bring that error into focus:

“Credo Apostolicam Ecclesiam”: Wednesdays in Saint Peter’s Square
chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=46890&eng=y

We don’t have to believe that all religions are equal in order to treat members of other religions as we would have them treat us.

In Christ, Michael

 

[JSmitty2005]

Kirane:

I think that my point still holds: it is not just one nun in one school but there are other Catholics, some of them in high places

If all your point was to show that there are dissidents in high places, I don’t think anyone’s arguing with you. However, don’t try to say that because of that that these thing they teach are the Church’s teaching. These statements are in no way authoritative, and as I’ve said before truth is not determined by a majority vote. If it were, we’d all be Arians. By the way, a jew may be saved through invincible ignorance and baptism of desire but that is not to say that judaism itself is a means of salvation.

 

[Kirane]

JSmitty2005:

By the way, a jew may be saved through invincible ignorance and baptism of desire but that is not to say that judaism itself is a means of salvation.

I know some Jews who have read St. Thomas and the New Testament and have studied it, but still reject it and reject JC based on their reading of the Old and New Testaments and the Talmud. Would these people be called “invincibly ignorant,” even though they have studied and read about Catholicism and reject it? BTW, they don’t want Baptism in any form, whether it be of water or of desire. I guess what i am asking is what do you mean by the term invincibly ignorant. Isn’t it just a theological loophole which guarantees that a nonBeliever in Chirst can still be saved?
In any case, I still don’t see that my point has been successfully rebutted: It is not the case of just one single nun in one school, who is teaching this type of ecumenism. It is rather widespread in the RCC.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Kirane:

I know some Jews who have read St. Thomas and the New Testament and have studied it, but still reject it and reject JC based on their reading of the Old and New Testaments and the Talmud. Would these people be called “invincibly ignorant,” even though they have studied and read about Catholicism and reject it? BTW, they don’t want Baptism in any form, whether it be of water or of desire. I guess what i am asking is what do you mean by the term invincibly ignorant. Isn’t it just a theological loophole which guarantees that a nonBeliever in Chirst can still be saved?
In any case, I still don’t see that my point has been successfully rebutted: It is not the case of just one single nun in one school, who is teaching this type of ecumenism. It is rather widespread in the RCC.

If they’ve studied it, then, no, they are not invincibly ignorant. Also, invincible ignorance doesn’t guarantee anything. There are no guarantees when it comes to salvation. Finally, if that’s all you’re trying to prove, then no one is trying to rebut you!!! Like I said before: “If all your point was to show that there are dissidents in high places, I don’t think anyone’s arguing with you.”