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Jerome42
Guest
Please elaborate.
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estesbob
Guest
I dont have a problem at all with Bella’s view as long as she doesnt, as Josephdavid does, use it as an excuse to vote for the abortionists. I disagree with her only in that I am pragmatice enough to not want the “perfect” to be the enemy of the “possible”. Bush’s view on abortion is the absolute best we can get from a canidate who wnats to have a reasonable chance of being elected president.
The mental mastrubation required to claim to be pro-life yet vote for abortionists is a terrbile thing to behold.
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Jerome42
Guest
Comment: How can anyone vote for the rights of the abortionist knowing full well that they have been responsible for over 47 million deaths of pre-born infants since 1973. There is absolutely nothing one can put on the other side of this argument that would even come close. Sorry, but it just doesn’t compute.
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estesbob
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The problem is many people are more wedded to their political party than they are to their Faith. This was not a problem before the Democrat party became the paty of Abortion,. Prior to 1973 one could make the case that the Democrat party did support Catholic Ideals better than did the Republican party but those days are long past. On all five of the non-negotiable issues the Democrat party is on the wrong side.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Back on point:
Hillary.
Named after Edmund Hillary.
Does Hillary support or vote against “Partial Birth Abortion”?
Hillary.
Named after Edmund Hillary.
Does Hillary support or vote against “Partial Birth Abortion”?
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Dandelion_Wine
Guest
We could make a list of what these pro-life politicians have accomplished recently.
Sorry bob, I don’t repspond to strawman arguments where people tell me what I believe.
What about our pro-abortion President???
Hush you two. No one wants to actually talk about that.
James G:
THANK YOU JAMES! Thanks for saying what I’ve been saying all along. I’m so tired of those on this board who treat the Republicans as if they could do no wrong and that if they did something wrong, at least it wasn’t as bad as what the Democrats did.
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estesbob
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Heres Bush’s record on abortion:
- Banned Partial Birth Abortion - by far the most significant roll-back of abortion on demand since Roe v. Wade.
- Reversed Clinton’s move to strike Reagan’s anti-abortion Mexico Policy.
- By Executive Order (EO), reversed Clinton’s policy of not requiring parental consent for abortions under the Medical Privacy Act.
- By EO, prohibited federal funds for international family planning groups that provide abortions and related services.
- Upheld the ban on abortions at military hospitals.
- Made $33 million available for abstinence education programs in 2004.
- Appointed pro-life Judge Alito to the USSC
- By EO banned federal funding of stem cell research on all but a few pre-existing stem cell lines.
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josephdavid
Guest
And again neither are. So I go with the lesser of two evils. Bush war policy in Iraq has killed hundreds of thousands of women and children for his own political agenda.
His budget pollicy is leaving millions of women with out health insurance denying them adequate health insurance. Resulting in one of the hightest infant mortality rates in the inustrialized world.
In third-world countries Bush’s agenda has cut off aid to health clinics because they offer contraceptives when he is for contraceptives! Now I agree if you are Catholic one should not use birth control. However the health clinics do more than offer birth control or abortion! So instead of negotiating his policy cut the aid all together so countless children have died.
His budget plans are cutting food stamps available for the poor and school lunch programs for children in inner cities.
Bush supports Plan-B and Alito voted down the partial birth abortion ban in New Jersey.
Remember the Contract of American when the Republicans took over both houses in 1994? Never mentioned abortion. Only taking care of the rich and big business. Nothing for the poor.
Then you have Republican Congressional members and their staff hiding the fact that they had a pedofile in their mix. Just so they can maintain a seat in the house.
Sounds hardly pro-life to me.
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josephdavid
Guest
Can you show me the document that one human life is more valuable than any other? Furthermore who are you to judge me. I was taught and continue to be taught that ALL HUMAN LIFE is valuable.
My political views are of consistant ethics towards life. NO PARTY HAS THAT YET. That I will agree. But let me ask you. Has abortion rate been reduced with Bush’s policies in place? Nope. You know that. Until the government address the issue of poverty head on instead of placing more value of people of wealth and big corporations we will lose this battle.
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rpp
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Ask and ye shall receive. The author is the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and now is our Holy Father. He wrote this in 2004.
priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm
Pay particular atten to paragraphs 2 and 3
You can continue to lie to yourself about abortion, but at least president Bush, if he had the opportunity to stop it. Both Gore and Kerry would have made it easier and expanded access. In fact, they both campaigned on that. And how can a president make abortion better with that 1973 Supreme Court ruling? The only way would be to go for the long term and appoint some justices who are opposed to abortion. Oh, wait. He did that. Not making abortion it better cannot be equated with making it worse.
By the way, if the grossly exaggerated numbers of dead in Iraq were even close to accurate:
*]Most were killed by other moslems
*]3800 people killed by abortion *each day *greatly outpaces even your exaggerated number of people who have died in Iraq, including those who dies of natural causes.
You seem to be little more than a Bush hater and your mind is closed. You invent excuses to vote against Bush and his policies even if it means voting for a baby killer. This is not intended as an insult, but an observation. When you are motivated by that degree of dislike, it is time to go on a 1, 2 or 4 week Carmelite retreat.
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josephdavid
Guest
Thank you! Read it. Read it 4 times.
It clearly says not to vote in favour of abortion. Which I do not. I made my case clearly here in these threads I LOBBY AGAINST IT. I do not vote for a candidate because he/support abortion. In fact in 2004 I did not vote for Kerry but wrote in my vote for Senator Nelson. So with in the guidelines there.
Lastly it says: N.B. A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons
However I have e-mailed the website to further clarify this document.
I never share the candidates position on abortion or euthanasia. In fact for example when I found out Sen. Obama voted against Parental Notification of I wrote to him and spoke with him asking why he voted against this. He explained that the only reason he voted against it because there were no measures with regards to the occassion of rape or incest. Although I understood why he voted against I still disagreed with him and voiced my opinion on the matter.
I wish Bush would of lived up to his promised in 2000 claiming he was a compassionate conservative holding dear the sanctity of life. However he has shown otherwise. In fact he even came out recently in support of Plan-B’s OK to go over-the-counter.
You find me a political party that hold sacred life from womb to tomb and believe me I will be behind that person and that party 100%. One reason I worked on George Ryan Campaign in 'IL and Tommy Thompson WI (both Republicans). Sadly found out how corrupt Ryan is.
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estesbob
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Yet time and time again when it comes down to voting you vote for the abortionists, You supposedly send Obama a nasty letter yet in the end you vote for him. Abortion is legal today mainly because misguided Catholics contnue to put their Politics ahead of their faith. You cry crocodile tears about poverty while voting for those who’s policiy’s have kept African Americans in Poverty for generations. You decry the alleged mistreatment of minorities while enthusiastically supporting those who’s policy’s have KILLED 25% of all African American chuldren in the last 33 years.
I would recommend those who read this thread to research Catholic teachings on this subject on their own rather than take the word of those who avidly support the abortionists
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josephdavid
Guest
And yet you do not realize that the other candidate was in favor of abortion also. So again I take the lesser of two evils.
Again you assume I only vote for Democrats regardless. Again you are wrong when I had stated as for myself I have voted for and worked for Republicans such as Tommy Thompson and George Ryan. I support McCain but wait… he is ok with abortion. There are some things I even like about our current President. But wait… he is ok with Plan B and abortion on certain issues.
Poverty and abortion are both a faith issues as well as a political issue.
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estesbob
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You have distorted the Church teaching of proportionality. You claim that if a canidate A supports abortion only in the case of rape and incest and Canidate B supports abortion in all cases they are both Pro-abortion and one can vote for canidateB if they beleive he is better on other issues.
That is flat out wrong. In this case the Church emphatically asserts you vote for canidate A . It also teaches you CAN not vote for canidate B. Proportionality ONLY refers to a Canidates stand on Abortion. No isssue-not the war, not poverty, not capital punishment nor ANY other issue or combination of issues, trumps abortion. I and other have posted the explict Church teaching on this numerous times and you ignore it every time because it conflicts with your political veiws.
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josephdavid
Guest
Then I need to talk to the three priests I have consulted with on this issue. Because believe me it has been bothering me a great deal what to do.
Also please I ask you finally stop considering me a baby killer. I am not. I do not support it and I will never support it. Being a father who has lost an infant at birth I know the sactity of life.
I am curious though Bob, why hasn’t the Church officially ex-communicated Sen. Kerry? Also received him formally at the funeral of John Paul II. Personally I am not supporting Kerry’s positions and in many cases quite hypocritical however. I am curious about this.
Listen… As I said before you I am not telling people how to vote however post truths against some mis-truths posted here in these threads how saintly some of these Republicans are. If one chooses such as yourself to vote Republican then go for it.
Let me ask Bob… If there was a Democrat who was for aboloshing abortion but also for Catholic Social Justice would you vote for him/her?
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estesbob
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The clear teachings of the Church have been presented to you numerous times. Rather than accept them you keep looking for Priests or web sites to help your rationalize your support of the abortionists. I figure you are a lost cause-so consumed with politics that that you consider 40 million dead children as merely collateral damage, necessary to promote the greater ‘good’ of pushing the Liberal agenda. BUT I am must to reply lest others reading these threads take you false assertions about Catholic teaching as the Truth. If you want to continue to empower the abortionists that is your business but please stop trying convince others that you are following Church techings.
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rlg94086
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I’ll answer that…First, I’ll assume that you mean the Democrat would actually vote in a pro-life manner and not just “personally opposed to abortion.” and that your idea of Catholic Social Justice means the government has to pay for it.
Yes, if the Republican candidate was pro-choice.
No, if the Republican candidate was pro-life.
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Julianna
Guest
*[Also please I ask you finally stop considering me a *baby killer. I am not. I do not support it and I will never support it. Being a father who has lost an infant at birth I know the sactity of life.
Listen… As I said before you I am not telling people how to vote however post truths against some mis-truths posted here in these threads how saintly some of these Republicans are. If one chooses such as yourself to vote Republican then go for it.
/I]
joseph, I understand what you are saying. The lesser of two evils…is still evil. Do the math. Neither party has the grass roots level voter’s best interest at heart. Politics plays upon whose heart strings they can get the best tug from. As I stated before, Hillary Clinton can wear a cross or a bone through her nose…it is not up to me to judge her motives, nor does it make me think any better or worse of her for doing so.
I find it interesting though that I face the big red EDIT when I state that some are extreme in their religious teachings, but the accusation of baby killer goes un-noticed.
Politicians will promise you the moon if it gets them elected. It so happens that the last 15 or so years…the extremists in the Republican Party have capitalized on the issue the extreme Christian Right has tossed their way. It will just be a matter of time before those that voted for the Republican Party on “one” issue will realize that in the last 20 years…they have received lip service. IMHO (yes, my opinion)…if the social injustices in this country were addressed head on, healthcare, seniors health and welfare, single mothers/fathers in poverty, education, teen pregnancy, drug use, the demise of the nuclear family…abortion would cease to exist.
I respect bob and his values. I disagree with him on many issues. You will not convince him to see the other point of view, as he is steadfast in his belief system. Good for him, it is to be admired, despite the fact he can’t give you any credence to believe in yours. Absolutism has it’s price, as does apathy. I often wonder when the arguing will stop and the action will begin.
Listen… As I said before you I am not telling people how to vote however post truths against some mis-truths posted here in these threads how saintly some of these Republicans are. If one chooses such as yourself to vote Republican then go for it.
/I]
joseph, I understand what you are saying. The lesser of two evils…is still evil. Do the math. Neither party has the grass roots level voter’s best interest at heart. Politics plays upon whose heart strings they can get the best tug from. As I stated before, Hillary Clinton can wear a cross or a bone through her nose…it is not up to me to judge her motives, nor does it make me think any better or worse of her for doing so.
I find it interesting though that I face the big red EDIT when I state that some are extreme in their religious teachings, but the accusation of baby killer goes un-noticed.
Politicians will promise you the moon if it gets them elected. It so happens that the last 15 or so years…the extremists in the Republican Party have capitalized on the issue the extreme Christian Right has tossed their way. It will just be a matter of time before those that voted for the Republican Party on “one” issue will realize that in the last 20 years…they have received lip service. IMHO (yes, my opinion)…if the social injustices in this country were addressed head on, healthcare, seniors health and welfare, single mothers/fathers in poverty, education, teen pregnancy, drug use, the demise of the nuclear family…abortion would cease to exist.
I respect bob and his values. I disagree with him on many issues. You will not convince him to see the other point of view, as he is steadfast in his belief system. Good for him, it is to be admired, despite the fact he can’t give you any credence to believe in yours. Absolutism has it’s price, as does apathy. I often wonder when the arguing will stop and the action will begin.
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rlg94086
Guest
You can’t do both at the same time?
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system
Guest
I’m very discouraged that this thread has been allowed to go on past 150 comments, when at least half of them are “uncharitable” to say the least!
I’ve seen edits and posts removed in other threads for much less.
So what gives? Is this an anything goes thread because of who it is about?
am I even allowed to question these things?
Here’s a thought: God works in mysterious ways. Anyone can be converted - anyone. Any life can be redeemed. Any life. There’s alot of folks here who are certain that they know God’s gameplan. I know alot of good people who were written off as hopeless by other human beings. And those who wrote them off were proven wrong.
Who knows how the holy spirit works? As for that cross, who knows why she wears it? I still don’t know why I felt compelled to secretly carry rosaries in my pocket for years before actually taking them out and using them. I can only look back in hindsight and say, maybe that was the holy spirit. I don’t know. Maybe someone else was praying for me. I don’t know.
Peace
I’ve seen edits and posts removed in other threads for much less.
So what gives? Is this an anything goes thread because of who it is about?
am I even allowed to question these things?
Here’s a thought: God works in mysterious ways. Anyone can be converted - anyone. Any life can be redeemed. Any life. There’s alot of folks here who are certain that they know God’s gameplan. I know alot of good people who were written off as hopeless by other human beings. And those who wrote them off were proven wrong.
Who knows how the holy spirit works? As for that cross, who knows why she wears it? I still don’t know why I felt compelled to secretly carry rosaries in my pocket for years before actually taking them out and using them. I can only look back in hindsight and say, maybe that was the holy spirit. I don’t know. Maybe someone else was praying for me. I don’t know.
Peace
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