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Dorothy
Guest
I didn’t realize until now that you are the original poster. I hope you understand why I responded the way I did.
Yes, we are to love everyone, but I had gotten the impression that you had accepted their lifestyle.
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Yes, we are to love everyone, but I had gotten the impression that you had accepted their lifestyle.
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annemarie12345
Guest
This is what I was taught.Homosexuality is an unnatural sin condemned by scripture.
I do however know the difference in loving the person and hating their sin, and that is why I have met these two women.
My husband doesn’t understand this difference. His brother has frequently been in trouble for going on protests against gays and he has made posters saying things like ‘God hates fags’.
I fear this may destroy our family.
We are Christians. Perhaps I have become more liberal than my husband.
Will our grandchildren be OK? Is it possible in anyway they may become gay?
The whole problem is the gay thing. It seems to be the worst thing that could happen to us.
I do however know the difference in loving the person and hating their sin, and that is why I have met these two women.
My husband doesn’t understand this difference. His brother has frequently been in trouble for going on protests against gays and he has made posters saying things like ‘God hates fags’.
I fear this may destroy our family.
We are Christians. Perhaps I have become more liberal than my husband.
Will our grandchildren be OK? Is it possible in anyway they may become gay?
The whole problem is the gay thing. It seems to be the worst thing that could happen to us.
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Credo_ergo_sum
Guest
We all live in sin. Treat them like any other sinner. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
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losh14
Guest
I’m happy to hear of your daughter finding such a good young man. As a parent of two daughters I understand your concerns about what kind of family the man comes from because this is the family whose values I’d anticipate him to adopt to a large extent, or at least be informed by.
You must remember, though, that a young couple is free to begin their marriage with their own script, rather than following that of their parents. Having met this young man and his parents, you are able to tell how much he resembles either of them in mannerism, thought and temperament. I’d be more concerned with a potential son-in-law having learned poor anger management or irresponsible spending than with learning homosexuality as a preferential choice - if the latter were the case, he’d not be interested in your daughter. Rather, is he polite, hard-working, responsible, and devoted?
You do not mention his own sense of spirituality or how his outlook would impact your daughter and their children, should they marry. Does he look upon your daughter with chastity and a pure love that treats her as a person, or does he make ribald and untoward remarks about her body? Does he find her beautiful yet respects her person, or is he all over her? Is his physical contact appropriate and what you’d expect when he is in your house, or does he expect to violate rules such as sleeping over if she still lives with you?
I think that his parents being homosexuals should not disqualify him as a potential suitor any more than his parents being divorced ought to. If you have concerns, bring them up. It is valid for you to be concerned about your daughter’s well-being, and adult children of divorce sometimes bring problems with intimacy, establishing friendships, self-esteem and fears of abandonment with them. My parents divorced when I was 2 and fought for the next 20 years - as a result I needed counseling, and my wife (having met my parents) was very supportive of our continuing to attend counseling periodically, and our marriage is stronger for it. This young man may enter marriage as a better-adjusted individual than I was, or even than I am, but it is right for you to raise concerns you might have.
I would caveat, though, that if you have a concern related to your being surprised at how well his parents relate or what nice people they are, because it’s different from what you were raised to think, perhaps it’s best for the sake of diplomacy and good relationships with your daughter’s in-laws to keep that to yourself. You don’t have to approve of what someone might do in the bedroom in order to like them as a person.
As for your husband and his family, whether they choose to attend the wedding, should your daughter and her suitor deepen their love with the lifelong commitment that is matrimony, is up to him and them. I don’t think that such an action would prevent your daughter from marrying this young man, nor will it persuade her that this young man is unfit to marry because of his parents’ lifestyle. It certainly wouldn’t endear her to you.
You must remember, though, that a young couple is free to begin their marriage with their own script, rather than following that of their parents. Having met this young man and his parents, you are able to tell how much he resembles either of them in mannerism, thought and temperament. I’d be more concerned with a potential son-in-law having learned poor anger management or irresponsible spending than with learning homosexuality as a preferential choice - if the latter were the case, he’d not be interested in your daughter. Rather, is he polite, hard-working, responsible, and devoted?
You do not mention his own sense of spirituality or how his outlook would impact your daughter and their children, should they marry. Does he look upon your daughter with chastity and a pure love that treats her as a person, or does he make ribald and untoward remarks about her body? Does he find her beautiful yet respects her person, or is he all over her? Is his physical contact appropriate and what you’d expect when he is in your house, or does he expect to violate rules such as sleeping over if she still lives with you?
I think that his parents being homosexuals should not disqualify him as a potential suitor any more than his parents being divorced ought to. If you have concerns, bring them up. It is valid for you to be concerned about your daughter’s well-being, and adult children of divorce sometimes bring problems with intimacy, establishing friendships, self-esteem and fears of abandonment with them. My parents divorced when I was 2 and fought for the next 20 years - as a result I needed counseling, and my wife (having met my parents) was very supportive of our continuing to attend counseling periodically, and our marriage is stronger for it. This young man may enter marriage as a better-adjusted individual than I was, or even than I am, but it is right for you to raise concerns you might have.
I would caveat, though, that if you have a concern related to your being surprised at how well his parents relate or what nice people they are, because it’s different from what you were raised to think, perhaps it’s best for the sake of diplomacy and good relationships with your daughter’s in-laws to keep that to yourself. You don’t have to approve of what someone might do in the bedroom in order to like them as a person.
As for your husband and his family, whether they choose to attend the wedding, should your daughter and her suitor deepen their love with the lifelong commitment that is matrimony, is up to him and them. I don’t think that such an action would prevent your daughter from marrying this young man, nor will it persuade her that this young man is unfit to marry because of his parents’ lifestyle. It certainly wouldn’t endear her to you.
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Marc_Anthony
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
I’m amazed that having gay parents is considered “the worst thing that could happen to you”.
Really? So it wouldn’t be nearly as bad if they were drug addicts? Or alcoholics? Or if they were in and out of prison? Or if they had violent tempers? You consider homosexuality more harmful toward your daughter than that?
Yes, living in a homosexual relationship is a grave sin (Grave only. We don’t know if it’s normal because we aren’t sure of the extent of knowledge or consent of will. That’s God’s job to judge). But in terms of how harmful it would be for your daughter…what’s your issue? Will it “rub off” on her? Is she still against homosexual relationships? Does she lie about it to his “parents” to make them feel better?
If these aren’t issues, it sounds to me like you’re fine.
But I’m a teenager, so I don’t have experience on my side. So what do I know?
Really? So it wouldn’t be nearly as bad if they were drug addicts? Or alcoholics? Or if they were in and out of prison? Or if they had violent tempers? You consider homosexuality more harmful toward your daughter than that?
Yes, living in a homosexual relationship is a grave sin (Grave only. We don’t know if it’s normal because we aren’t sure of the extent of knowledge or consent of will. That’s God’s job to judge). But in terms of how harmful it would be for your daughter…what’s your issue? Will it “rub off” on her? Is she still against homosexual relationships? Does she lie about it to his “parents” to make them feel better?
If these aren’t issues, it sounds to me like you’re fine.
But I’m a teenager, so I don’t have experience on my side. So what do I know?
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I highly doubt that this post is real.
But in case it is here’s my advice: His parents are absolutely none of your business.
But in case it is here’s my advice: His parents are absolutely none of your business.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
So your brother in law is a member of the Westboro “Baptist” Church? AFAIK, they are the only group that is ever seen holding signs saying “God hates fags.” If you have in-laws that a part of that group…your future son in law’s parents are the least of your problems.
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losh14
Guest
As unusual as this post may be to some of us, I appreciate when posts are taken sincerely as this one has been.
Our own generation has it’s own challenges, too. With the openness comes a feeling-out, of sorts. Many of us were raised in public school health class to say “it’s okay that you’re gay, I won’t judge you for who you love” but it’s very simple to give the gay kid a pat on the back and say that bullying is wrong. We’re now looking at the adults who were often ostracized by the Church and expecting them to embrace the virtue of chastity which, on the one hand, would reject a gay relationship altogether, but at the same time would prefer monogamy over promiscuity. Where we condemn gay culture for promiscuity, we must also condemn promiscuity among heterosexuals, and at the same not paint committed gay couples with the brush of promiscuity. I would imagine that there are a number of long-term committed gay couples who are trying to reconcile a need for GLBTQ community with their disgust at displays of sexual fetishism at pride parades and drag shows.
How do they treat your daughter? Are they kind to her? Do they offer her hugs and respect if she doesn’t want a hug? Do they ask about her work, her day, the latest movie she saw? How do they treat their son?
As far as the grandkids becoming gay, I don’t think it’s any more likely because they’d have gay grandparents. Think of it - not every gay person has gay parents or gay grandparents. Again, if you have a concern about sexual abuse or mistreatment, by all means bring that up. There are cases of survivors of sexual abuse becoming gay or embracing a paraphilia or perversion, but not all gays were sexually abused, so you cannot automatically make the connection.
Enjoy these very nice couples (they sound very nice) and leave it at that unless you have reason not to.
I will say that there are always exceptions and exceptional couples, but studies have noted that promiscuity remains a greater concern among gay men than gay women (as it is a greater concern among straight men than among straight women). That said, I don’t know how this helps. If his father and father’s other have affairs with other men, I’m sure that would be difficult for the young man and I’d hope that the OP and her husband would lend an ear if this young man needed to talk, or respect his privacy if he did not wish to talk about it. I’d almost prefer the latter - my own parents (divorced) appreciate that I respect their privacy and don’t talk about my father’s wife to my mother’s husband other than when he cordially asks how they’re doing and if they’re able to make things like our youngest’s baptism. Adult children learn quickly that they are the best ones in the marriage to handle difficulties brought on by their own parents.
Agreed. We will have to remember to observe certain norms - we must be loving and remain examples of humility and faith to our Lord, and that includes maintaining friendships as much as it does defending the faith when called upon.
Agreed, though the mentality among my parents’ generation is generally that homosexuality is reason to condemn the person. My wife’s father has two cousins who are lesbians. One is married to her partner and lives openly, and my wife’s grandmother will have nothing to do with her (“Pat the Lesbian” she calls her). The other lives very discretely with her roommate Cathy, and together they raise three adopted black children (and from time to time another foster child comes around), all of whom were cocaine-exposed as babies. My wife’s grandmother probably knows but treats Barb and Cathy with the same subtlety that they present themselves (“Cathy, it’s so good of you to come along with Barb and help out at Thanksgiving. I know you’re missing your own family so I appreciate you being here.”).
Our own generation has it’s own challenges, too. With the openness comes a feeling-out, of sorts. Many of us were raised in public school health class to say “it’s okay that you’re gay, I won’t judge you for who you love” but it’s very simple to give the gay kid a pat on the back and say that bullying is wrong. We’re now looking at the adults who were often ostracized by the Church and expecting them to embrace the virtue of chastity which, on the one hand, would reject a gay relationship altogether, but at the same time would prefer monogamy over promiscuity. Where we condemn gay culture for promiscuity, we must also condemn promiscuity among heterosexuals, and at the same not paint committed gay couples with the brush of promiscuity. I would imagine that there are a number of long-term committed gay couples who are trying to reconcile a need for GLBTQ community with their disgust at displays of sexual fetishism at pride parades and drag shows.
This is the source of the difficulty. I think your brother-in-law will do more harm than this couple would. But your daughter’s marriage has nothing to do with your brother-in-law’s acceptance, and if your brother-in-law tries to make trouble for your daughter, it’s your husband’s duty to tell him to back off. If he won’t, the duty falls to you. I hate if this comes about for you, but you know that there’s a limit to how far you carry someone’s sinfulness. I can understand drug addicts and child molestors - you want to keep them away from your family as much as possible. That’s not remotely where we’re at here.
I’m sure you could think of worse things. An abusive boyfriend. An unwanted pregnancy resulting in abortion. The boyfriend having a violent father who has murdered his mother. Stuff you see on Jerry Springer. If this boy’s parents came dressed in drag or in fetish clothing or acted outwardly sexual towards members of your family or tried to touch the younger relatives inappropriately, you’d have grave reason to be concerned. You’ve mentioned none of that - rather, I get the image of two nice couples who offer to bring casseroles and who probably avoid talking politics knowing that they are on opposite sides of the spectrum from their future daughter-in-law’s family.
How do they treat your daughter? Are they kind to her? Do they offer her hugs and respect if she doesn’t want a hug? Do they ask about her work, her day, the latest movie she saw? How do they treat their son?
As far as the grandkids becoming gay, I don’t think it’s any more likely because they’d have gay grandparents. Think of it - not every gay person has gay parents or gay grandparents. Again, if you have a concern about sexual abuse or mistreatment, by all means bring that up. There are cases of survivors of sexual abuse becoming gay or embracing a paraphilia or perversion, but not all gays were sexually abused, so you cannot automatically make the connection.
Enjoy these very nice couples (they sound very nice) and leave it at that unless you have reason not to.
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Todd_Easton
Guest
This is what the Church teaches on the subject of homosexuality, including how those with homosexual tendencies ought to be treated by Catholics.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**Chastity and homosexuality **
2357. Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[140] tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”[141] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358. The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.". They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359. Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**Chastity and homosexuality **
2357. Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[140] tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”[141] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358. The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.". They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359. Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
- Cf. Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27;1 Cor 6:10; 1 *Tim *1:10.
- CDF, Persona humana 8.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
That right there was what made me sure this was fake. The WBC has about 25 members and all but one are members of the Phelp’s family.So your brother in law is a member of the Westboro “Baptist” Church? AFAIK, they are the only group that is ever seen holding signs saying “God hates fags.” If you have in-laws that a part of that group…your future son in law’s parents are the least of your problems.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
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annemarie12345
Guest
Thank you so much losh14. Your advice is very helpful and much appreciated.
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1ke
Guest
Um, because “spouse” is what I happened to type. Is there some alternate meaning to the word “spouse” I am unaware of?
I also used “fiance” in another post. What is your problem?
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Celticone
Guest
This is my first post, and only posted when I read the word “HATE” in the above sentence.
I was brought up never to hate anyone, and as a Christian we are told we are not to judge others, thats Gods job. The fact that this boy and his sister have turned out to be well adjused human beings is a plus for their parents. These people have done a lovely job in bringing them up and are to be congradulated. We accept the people not their lifestyle, what happens in their bedroom is their business not ours, also just because they are living together does not give us the right to assume they are also having sexual relations. They could love one another but living as sisters and brothers.Whatever happened to “Love your enemies” and these people are not even your enemies. I have no idea what you thought these two women would be like, the only difference between them and you are they love someone of the same sex, they dont have two heads etc.they are first and foremost two of Gods work of art.
We are all sinners in one way or another.
I think 1ke’s first post in this thread is the key.
There are all kinds of unusual and/or immoral situations that the parents of a couple wishing to marry could be involved in. Those situations have been making life complicated for children, step children, sons-in-laws, and daughters-in-law for centuries.
In this particular case, the real issue is whether or not this couple will have a Catholic marriage and raise their children as Catholics. If they intend to do so then they will have challenges that are unique to their situation. It is the duty of good parents to point out these difficulties and perhaps offer suggestions. But it is also good parenting to butt out sometimes. (…and perhaps to tell one’s own extended family to butt out as well.)
If this couple will not be pursuing a Catholic marriage then the grooms parentage seems rather inconsequential in comparison.
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1ke
Guest
As long as the Church continues to refer to Joseph as Mary’s “most chaste spouse” I don’t think there is a language war that needs winning.
Just because other groups may co-opt a term and use it to their devices does not mean they can take it away from me or that I will stop using it. It is a perfectly appropriate word. I think you are overreacting. Not everything is a conspiracy. Certainly not my use of the word “spouse”.
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shainski
Guest
It seems to me that the answer is simple.
This is your daughter. I assume that nothing you do or don’t do is going to change that she will marry this man.
If that is the case, then it would benefit you to figure out how to strengthen the relationship that you have with your daughter and your son-in-law.
If his parents were divorced and living with other opposite-sex partners - you sound like you would still not approve - but would you shun them?
If you were the one getting married, then you might want to take this into account - but you are not! Why would you take an approach which may drive your daughter away from you. And - if you are so afraid of the upbringing of future grandchildren - you would likely have no role in their lives.
I would graciously attend the wedding. I would congratulate the mom/step-mom and dad/step-dad on their son being married - and i would bite my tongue on how much you disapprove of their lifestyle. You have nothing to gain by pursuing this and a lot to lose.
This is your daughter. I assume that nothing you do or don’t do is going to change that she will marry this man.
If that is the case, then it would benefit you to figure out how to strengthen the relationship that you have with your daughter and your son-in-law.
If his parents were divorced and living with other opposite-sex partners - you sound like you would still not approve - but would you shun them?
If you were the one getting married, then you might want to take this into account - but you are not! Why would you take an approach which may drive your daughter away from you. And - if you are so afraid of the upbringing of future grandchildren - you would likely have no role in their lives.
I would graciously attend the wedding. I would congratulate the mom/step-mom and dad/step-dad on their son being married - and i would bite my tongue on how much you disapprove of their lifestyle. You have nothing to gain by pursuing this and a lot to lose.
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