Historical accuracy of the gospel of John

[PNEUMA]

John says, “The Word was with God and the Word was God.” …

Wrong translation of the greek word “pros”, its not “with” but “to” God, meaning that the Word was connected to God (who is spirit and life) No wonder that you don’t understand, the gospel of John.

biblehub.com/greek/pros_4314.htm

John 6:63 “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

 

[kdbueno]

Collegiality, by reason of supernatural truth is equal. Apostolic oral tradition sprouts from the reasonable content of the biblical script.

 

[PNEUMA]

One of the doctrines of the Catholic Church is the Hypostatic Union. Jesus has two natures, one human, one divine. He was only one person, a divine person. In his divine nature He is God. Another doctrine of the Catholic Church is the Trinity, there are three persons in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but One God, all are co-equal in divinity. So beside Jesus, there are two other persons united with Him, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father, and begotten of the Father, and the love that exists between them begets the Holy Spirit.

Well, I see it this way. In John 8:16 Jesus says, he and the Father are two witnesses. Later in John 15:26 Jesus says, the Spirit (additionally) will come and witness about him. So there you have it, three witnesses, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

John 8:16 “my judgement is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. In your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid”

John 15:26 “But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me”

However, I do not read that “Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father” in Jesus’s answer to Philip. I read that the Father is in (dwells in) Jesus, that they are one, right there and then.

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

It is clearly the Father that speaks, right there and then.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Wrong translation of the greek word “pros”, its not “with” but “to” God, meaning that the Word was connected to God (who is spirit and life) No wonder that you don’t understand, the gospel of John.

biblehub.com/greek/pros_4314.htm

John 6:63 “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

It’s been translated as was for several millenia first by Jerome, a scholar of Greek. John says Jesus is God. Are you Catholic, because you are taking a non Catholic position.Note the context: When Jesus said these words it was 3pm - which was the liturgical hour of prayer for the Jews (cf Acts 3:1) - so Jesus as High Priest was entering into liturgical prayer. Also note that Jesus spoke in Hebrew here, which was rare for Jesus to do - this is one of the only times Jesus spoke and the Gospel Writer had to translate Jesus’ words: “Eli Lama Sbachthani, that is My God why have you forsaken me.” This is because Hebrew was the liturgical prayer language. And note that Jesus is indeed intoning Psalm 22, similar to when a Priest says “Our Father…” we automatically recognize what comes afterwards.

Now, Psalm 22:1 says: “My God why have you forsaken me, why are you so far from helping me.” So the “abandonment” felt here was that of not sending divine help to rescue him. Even though Jesus said “I can call upon my Father and He will send twelve legions of angels to me,” God the Father chose not to send this help in order that the Jews and Romans could have their way with Jesus.

There is no such thing as separation from the Father unless one is (a) non-Divine, and (b) in mortal sin. Jesus experienced neither. He was only ‘abandoned’ in the sense that God did not send help to rescue him.

It was David who originally prayed these words of Psalm 22. But we know David was not suffering separation from the Father or divine wrath. Rather, David was experiencing what all good Christians have experienced: I’ve been a good person, so why is this bad stuff happening to me, doesn’t God care about me? Jesus shows us that even when bad things happen to good people, it’s not because God is upset, but because God is using this bad to bring about a greater good. The Book of Job is about God sending suffering upon righteous Job, not protecting him, but it had nothing to do with God being separated from Job or upset with Job.

 

[PNEUMA]

It’s been translated as was for several millenia first by Jerome, a scholar of Greek. John says Jesus is God…

No, John crystally clear says that the word (the word) is God, that created everything. (John 1:1-5)

The whole problem is that you don’t acknowledge, that the Father and the Son came to the world in the human Jesus Christ, even if John says so.

John 8:29 “he who sent me is with me”
John 14:9 “He who has seen me has seen the Father”
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”
John 14:10 “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

Just as the Father is in Jesus and speak through Jesus, so also the Spirit is in the Apostles and speak through the Apostles.

Matthew 10:20 “it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you”

John 14:17 “the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you”

1 John 4:15 “God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God”

Maybe this will help you understand ?

In the beginning was the voice and the voice was God

breath, voice, sound, word, spirit is God

Joh 20,22 “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.””

Why do you think we say holy Father ?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

No, John crystally clear says that the word (the word) is God, that created everything. (John 1:1-5)

The whole problem is that you don’t acknowledge, that the Father and the Son came to the world in the human Jesus Christ, even if John says so.

John 8:29 "he who sent me is with me"
John 14:9 “He who has seen me has seen the Father”
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”
John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."

Just as the Father is in Jesus and speak through Jesus, so also the Spirit is in the Apostles and speak through the Apostles.

Matthew 10:20 "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you"

John 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you"

1 John 4:15 "God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God"

Maybe this will help you understand ?

In the beginning was the voice and the voice was God

breath, voice, sound, word, spirit is God

Joh 20,22 "As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”"

Why do you think we say holy Father ?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/97/e9/74/97e97454023296bafa0bd95b9704b3aa.jpg

In John Jesus utters the Holy Name when speaking of Himself. Jesus is God.

 

[PNEUMA]

In John Jesus utters the Holy Name when speaking of Himself. Jesus is God.

You really don’t get it do you ? It is the Father that is speaking ! Why is that so difficult to understand ?

Do you understand that there are evil (unclean) spirits in several people Jesus meet ? that the evil spirits speak to Jesus ? If you do ? How come you don’t understand that there is a good spirit in Jesus, a holy (clean) spirit that speak through him.

God the Father is spirit and he is in Jesus.

Mark 1:23 “there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.” But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent, and come out of him!” And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him.”

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

You really don’t get it do you ? It is the Father that is speaking ! Why is that so difficult to understand ?

God the Father is spirit and he is in Jesus.

Nope. Just God the Son. In John’s gospel we have a voice from heaven adressing Jesus.

Are you Catholic?

 

[ynotzap]

John 14:8

“Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

It is clearly the Father that speaks, right there and then.

If Jesus is not the Father, and Jesus states that " Who ever has seen me has seen the Father" In that case Jesus reflects the Father, two distinct personalities in one God, this is the Mystery of the Trinity. Jesus is by spiritual generation begotten by the Father, by filiation, the Son.

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13987447:

You really don’t get it do you ? It is the Father that is speaking ! Why is that so difficult to understand ?

Do you understand that there are evil (unclean) spirits in several people Jesus meet ? that the evil spirits speak to Jesus ? If you do ? How come you don’t understand that there is a good spirit in Jesus, a holy (clean) spirit that speak through him.

God the Father is spirit and he is in Jesus.

Nope. Just God the Son. In John’s gospel we have a voice from heaven adressing Jesus.

Are you Catholic?

The voice (The Father) can be anywhere

The Spirit was in Jesus (John 20.22) (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1120)

God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets (Acts 3:21) (Luke 1:70) (Catechism of the Catholic Church 687)

Hebrews 1:1 “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son”

"The One whom the Father has sent into our hearts, the Spirit of his Son, is truly God. Consubstantial with the Father and the Son, the Spirit is inseparable from them, in both the inner life of the Trinity and his gift of love for the world. In adoring the Holy Trinity, life-giving, consubstantial, and indivisible, the Church’s faith also professes the distinction of persons. When the Father sends his Word, he always sends his Breath." (Catechism of the Catholic Church 689)

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13984653:

Well, I see it this way. In John 8:16 Jesus says, he and the Father are two witnesses. Later in John 15:26 Jesus says, the Spirit (additionally) will come and witness about him. So there you have it, three witnesses, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

John 8:16

"my judgement is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. In your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is valid"

John 15:26 "But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me"

However, I do not read that “Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father” in Jesus’s answer to Philip. I read that the Father is in (dwells in) Jesus, that they are one, right there and then.

John 14:8 "Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works."

It is clearly the Father that speaks, right there and then.If Jesus is not the Father, and Jesus states that " Who ever has seen me has seen the Father" In that case Jesus reflects the Father, two distinct personalities in one God, this is the Mystery of the Trinity. Jesus is by spiritual generation begotten by the Father, by filiation, the Son.

Trinity is three persons in one being. Why would then two persons in one being, be a problem ?

 

[patrick457]

Wow. I’ve just been gone for a bit and the discussion’s moved on to something else.

Before I answer the last issue, re. the Trinity. The Catechism:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. (Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421) The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” (Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26) In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.” (Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804)

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.” (Fides Damasi: DS 71) “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” (Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:25) They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” (Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804) The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.” (Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 528) Indeed “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.” (Council of Florence (1442): DS 1330) “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.” (Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331)

And this is what it says about Jesus’ two natures. I won’t quote it here because it’s too long.

It’s times like these that I wish we brought back the Athanasian Creed.

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the Father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, nod made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshiped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood.

Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the Godhead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ.

So far, that’s what the Catholic Church believes regarding the Trinity and Jesus.

 

[patrick457]

Trinity is three persons in one being. Why would then two persons in one being, be a problem ?

The way I see it, the Father and the Son (in His divine nature) being consubstantial (of the same ousia or essence/substance) does not mean that the Father is the Son and vice versa. or that the Father became incarnate in Jesus. Because that would be implying that the Father suffered on the cross, which is heresy (Patripassianism / Sabellianism / Oneness theology).

 

[po18guy]

In one thread, we have gone from an absurd historical proposition all the way to debates regarding geography. It must be an election year.

 

[patrick457]

In one thread, we have gone from an absurd historical proposition all the way to debates regarding geography. It must be an election year.

I wonder where we’ll be going next.

 

[PNEUMA]

The way I see it, the Father and the Son (in His divine nature) being consubstantial (of the same ousia or essence/substance) does not mean that the Father is the Son and vice versa. or that the Father became incarnate in Jesus. Because that would be implying that the Father suffered on the cross, which is heresy (Patripassianism / Sabellianism / Oneness theology).

Who said the Father is the Son ? The Father is Spirit, the Son is flesh and blood.

The Father left the Son before the suffering (Matthew 27:46) Why would Jesus say that the Father dwells in him (John 14:10) if that wasn’t so ? And why would Paul say “in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell” if that wasn’t so ? (Colossians 1:19)

 

[patrick457]

Who said the Father is the Son ? The Father is Spirit, the Son is flesh and blood.

The Father left the Son before the suffering (Matthew 27:46)that why would Jesus say that the Father dwells in him (John 14:10) if that wasn’t so ? And why would Paul say “in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell” if that wasn’t so ? (Colossians 1:19)

I think the problem is with your term usage, because it’s rather confusing.

The way I read you, you sound like you’re saying that (1) God the Father was separated from the Son (Jesus’ divinity) on the cross (which is different from Jesus feeling in His humanity that He was forsaken), which would be Arianism, and/or (2) Jesus’ divine nature was a separate entity who abandoned the human body it ‘possessed’ on the cross, which would be a kind of Docetism or Adoptionism.

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13989407:

Who said the Father is the Son ? The Father is Spirit, the Son is flesh and blood.

The Father left the Son before the suffering (Matthew 27:46) Why would Jesus say that the Father dwells in him (John 14:10) if that wasn’t so ? And why would Paul say “in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell” if that wasn’t so ? (Colossians 1:19)

I think the problem is with your term usage, because it’s rather confusing.

The way I read you, you sound like you’re saying that (1) God the Father was separated from the Son (Jesus’ divinity) on the cross (which is different from Jesus feeling in His humanity that He was forsaken), which would be Arianism, and/or (2) Jesus’ divine nature was a separate entity who abandoned the human body it ‘possessed’ on the cross, which would be a kind of Docetism or Adoptionism.

Arianism = the Son was created by the Father. This has nothing to do with, the Father dwelling in the Son (John 14:10)

Docetism = the Son was not a human. This has nothing to do with what I said “the Son is flesh and blood”

Adoptionism = the Son was adopted by the Father. This has nothing to do with anything I said

So it seems as you are just using these fancy words, thinking no one will check what they really mean ?

 

[patrick457]

Arianism = the Son was created by the Father. This has nothing to do with, the Father dwelling in the Son (odJohn 14:10)

Docetism = the Son was not a human. This has nothing to do with what I said “the Son is flesh and blood”

Adoptionism = the Son was adopted by the Father. This has nothing to do with anything what I said

So it seems as you are just using these words, thinking no one will check what they really mean ?

Arianism holds that the Son is a creature (hence not begotten), a lesser divinity than (hence not equal to) the Father, that they are not of the same substance/essence - they are only of similar substance. Hence in their view they are separate / separable.

Docetism is a tricky term. You’re right that in its proper sense it refers to those who denied that Jesus’ human body was real, but at the same time some Christians also used the term to refer to those who thought that Jesus’ divinity (‘Christ’) was a separate, spiritual entity who possessed the human body of Jesus at some point in His life (they usually identified it with the Spirit that came to Him during His baptism) and who abandoned this body during the Passion. Which is similar to what you see among Adoptionists (that Jesus the man was made God and Son of God at some point in His life.)

Before you accuse people of randomly using words, give them the benefit of the doubt. Looking back at it, I probably should have used Monarchianism or Sabellianism/Modalism. By which I’m not saying that you actually are a Monarchian or a Modalist, just that your last post could give someone the impression that you’re espousing a similar idea.

 

[PNEUMA]

Arianism holds that the Son is a creature (hence not begotten), a lesser divinity than (hence not equal to) the Father, that they are not of the same substance/essence - they are only of similar substance. Hence in their view they are separate / separable.

Docetism is a tricky term. You’re right that in its proper sense it refers to those who denied that Jesus’ human body was real, but at the same time some Christians also used the term to refer to those who thought that Jesus’ divinity (‘Christ’) was a separate, spiritual entity who possessed the human body of Jesus at some point in His life (they usually identified it with the Spirit that came to Him during His baptism) and who abandoned this body during the Passion. Which is similar to what you see among Adoptionists (that Jesus the man was made God and Son of God at some point in His life.)

Before you accuse people of randomly using words, give them the benefit of the doubt. Looking back at it, I probably should have used Monarchianism or Sabellianism/Modalism. By which I’m not saying that you actually are a Monarchian or a Modalist, just that your last post could give someone the impression that you’re espousing a similar idea.

Again

Monarchianism = God is only one person (the same goes for Sabellianism/Modalism)

Arianism, Docetism, Adoptionism

None of this, has nothing to do with, the Father being a spirit in the human Jesus Christ

John 14:8* “Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”*

Acts 3:21 “God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old”

Hebrews 1:1* “In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son”*

God spoke by the mouth of the Son