Holding Hands at the Lord's Prayer

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Melman:
To many, “Charity” does not include tolerating abuses in the mass and the Eucharist, which is after all “the source and summit of the Christian life” (CCC 1324). The Church lays out clear standards and rituals, and we are expected to obey them in a spirit of obedience. Disobedience must not be explained away as “differences in the way others worship”.
And what, pray tell, are the ‘clear standards’ regarding holding someone’s offered hand at the Our Father? There are none. There is a standard that a priest may not leave the sanctuary or hold hands with altar servers etc. He may not force the congregation to hold hands. But, there is no rule forbidding or even discouraging accepting someone else’s hand.

Fear of cooties must not be explained away as “obedience to clear standards” when they don’t exist.

I don’t hold hands, but if some lonely soul or teenager offers his hand, I will hold it. Too many people have left the Church because they never feel welcomed for me to feel right about refusing someone’s offered hand. Believe it or not, people leave the faith because of small little rebukes like people are describing here (ie pretending to sneeze into your hand in order to discourage someone’s gesture).
 
Rubrics spell out what is proscribed, not what not to do. Therefore, postures based on personal initiative do not foster the total Communion of the church. They are rather disunifying.
 
Holding hand is not in the rubric nor is it required for people to do so.

The focus should be in the Sacrifice of Calvary not each other.
 
The version of the Lord’s Prayer that I learned begins with the phrase “Our Father,” not “My Father.” It seems that the prayer was designed by Christ for the Community, not just individuals. You come together at mass because you need the Christian community, the body of Christ, in order to be able to effectively worship God in a way that is pleasing to Him.

Unrepented hostility toward fellow parishioners might block some of the graces that come from participating in the mass and reception of the Eucharist.
 
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JNB:
Again, we are Catholics, not Evangelicals or Pentacostals, sadly at times the liturgy doesnt reflect that.
So Catholics don’t love each other enough to hold each others hands? What would Christ do? I think that some Catholics need to behave in a more evangelical way. The Pope is calling for it. The bishops are calling for it. We need to avoid being stuck in our ways.
 
I do not think some people are getting the concept. Fellowship is important, I agree 100% with that, there is enough time for that AFTER MASS. The our father prayer is a solem prayer that the community does together, it is not the same though as reception on the Eucharist that bonds the community to Christ. Again, holding hands during the lords prayer is not part of the rubrics, and these “extra” signs of unity tend to be superfical, and de sacramentalises the externals of the mass.

Again, want fellowship, do it after mass, support each other in the real world where it most matters. I brought this up in a previous thread, but ironically the parishes that I went to that did the hand holding during the lords prayer along with other “progressive” liturgical elemnets were the parishes where people simpily left after communion and most drove home after mass, the parish I went to that had true fellowship was a Traditional chapel that had the Traditional Mass.

The Pope is actually calling for a more solem mass to be celebrated, that is why new documents on the liturgy have been issued.
 
I pray the Our Father with my hands folded at chest level, head bowed and eyes closed, concentrating with all my being on the words of this wonderful prayer. It’s both personal and communal in the Mass. I’m present - that’s communal. I’m participating by saying the prayer - that’s very personal, but also communal.
 
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Charlemagne:
I pray the Our Father with my hands folded at chest level, head bowed and eyes closed, concentrating with all my being on the words of this wonderful prayer. It’s both personal and communal in the Mass. I’m present - that’s communal. I’m participating by saying the prayer - that’s very personal, but also communal.
Do you think that if you really focus on the words, you might be able to see why holding hands with your brother and sister in Christ while addressing your (pl.) Father might be appropriate? The prayer is obviously communal in nature, and a communal gesture is not contrary to the meaning of the prayer.
 
I think we are being too binary here. There are people on both sides of a fence when in reality there is a spectrum of practices.

In a situation where someone offers their hand and others simply fold their hands, I think it is only charitable to hold an offered hand. True, its not “in the rubrics”, but neither are May Crownings, mantillas, etc.

In a situation where the celebrant tells everyone to join hands and half of the prayer time is occupied by the formation of a human chain, I think it is best to ignore the priest’s inappropriate innovation.

In a situation where no one is holding hands or the person next to you doesn’t offer theirs it seems best to simply fold your hands, but offer a gracious “peace” if you are invited to do so at the sign of peace.

Personally, I find it distracting to hold someone’s hand, but I imagine they find it more distracting if someone simply refuses to hold theirs. Isn’t it more charitable to not want someone else to be distracted or is it best to simply care about your own participation, not your neighbors?

In something which is not allowed, the answer is obvious, but we are talking about something which is not commented on in the rubrics.
 
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maxk:
Isn’t it more charitable to not want someone else to be distracted or is it best to simply care about your own participation, not your neighbors?
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But is it charitable to let someone continue in error? Does a good mother give in to her children when she knows what they want isn’t what is right?

Also, I have said before that if someone leaves the Church because I didn’t hold hands with them for 20 seconds during the Our Father, even though I did extend my hand in the Sign of Peace (the APPROPRIATE time to extend one’s hand in friendship during Mass), then there are probably other issues going on that have little to do with me.

This whole section of the discussion board deals with liturgical abuses; yet we stay in the Church because we know we have found the TRUTH. I don’t think any of us is leaving because someone does or does not hold hands with us. Once you have TRUTH, it’s hard to leave…

We are not at Mass to be entertained or to “feel good;” we are there to worship GOD. The “feel good” is only a byproduct. I feel good going to Mass because I experience God’s love for me in the EUCHARIST and in His infinite MERCY. If that wasn’t there, there would be no reason for going, no matter how many people held my hand or smiled or waved at me. :twocents:
 
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maxk:
And what, pray tell, are the ‘clear standards’ regarding holding someone’s offered hand at the Our Father? There are none.
Please listen carefully, I’m going to type this s-l-o-w-l-y. If it’s not in the rubrics, it is NOT to be done. Period.
I don’t hold hands, but if some lonely soul or teenager offers his hand, I will hold it.
I wouldn’t even see it because I’m either looking straight ahead or I have my eyes closed briefly. (No, I don’t sneeze on my hands.) I don’t waste time looking around to see who’s holding out their hand.
Too many people have left the Church because they never feel welcomed
Then they didn’t understand why they were at Mass to begin with. Welcoming and warm fuzzies are for outside of Mass.
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iguana27:
The version of the Lord’s Prayer that I learned begins with the phrase “Our Father,” not “My Father.” It seems that the prayer was designed by Christ for the Community, not just individuals. …] So Catholics don’t love each other enough to hold each others hands? What would Christ do? …] Do you think that if you really focus on the words, you might be able to see why holding hands with your brother and sister in Christ while addressing your (pl.) Father might be appropriate? The prayer is obviously communal in nature, and a communal gesture is not contrary to the meaning of the prayer.
These are lovely sentiments, but in the context of behavior at mass, they are incorrect. Sorry.
 
Have you ever attended a Mass where the priest actually said, “let’s join hands and say the our father” - I have and then he holds hands with the altar servers to boot - makes me want to stand up and shout “DON’T DO THIS”. :eek:

There is unfortunately nothing saying folks can’t hold hands during the Pater Noster but there is something that says the priest should hold his hands in the Oran position. The priests need to set an example and they need to speak up and tell folks not to do it. :mad:

At the N.O. Parish I attend, I am the only one I see that DOES NOT hold hands - I try to seat myself at the end of an outside aisle so as not to interrupt their little chain - 😦
 
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catholiclady:
Have you ever attended a Mass where the priest actually said, “let’s join hands and say the our father” -

That happens at our parish too. We’re actually told to hold hands as a sign of our unity. So now we really look hostile and odd when we fold our hands in prayer instead of reaching out to hold hands. It’s so frustrating. And by the way, when explanations of the new GIRM came out, our parish printed something from another diocese that stated the reasons why holding hands was not considered to be an “appropriate posture” during the Lord’s Prayer, and which postures were acceptable (and why). A side note added, however, that since it was not specifically forbidden by the GIRM, we would continue to do it, and they expected us to follow the custom just as we would be expected to follow whatever custom is practiced in other parishes.

I think it is apparent that this is an extremely divisive issue and should be clarified by the bishops uniformly throughout the U.S.
 
Melman:
Please listen carefully, I’m going to type this s-l-o-w-l-y. If it’s not in the rubrics, it is NOT to be done.
Ahhh, I see. If it’s not required, then its forbidden. Gotcha.
Then they didn’t understand why they were at Mass to begin with. Welcoming and warm fuzzies are for outside of Mass.
Well, I guess I can see why traditionalists get so little traction and attention from most US chanceries. You have to realize that your post says that you could not care less if someone next to you (who may not have memorized the GIRM yet) leaves the Church because they needed a warm fuzzy. Like I said in the other thread, I am a stoic upper midwestern German who gets the creeps when someone tries to give me a warm fuzzy, but I still have a capacity to recognize that some people need them. I also recognize that Christ told us to put other people’s needs ahead of our own.

Some people even leave Church if they don’t feel an emotional bond to other people there. True, that isn’t the first purpose of Mass, but that person will never be around to experience the real, ultimate purpose of the Mass, if you refuse them any kind of personal touch. They will either be home on Sunday morning or they will have gone to another denomination which still recognizes that people are made in the image and likeness of the Blessed Trinity (ie a community, not three individuals).

Try thinking of these other people’s needs rather your own need for strict attention to a detail which doesn’t exist in the rubrics.
 
You know, why is it the US and possibly Canada the only places where people hold hands during the Lords Prayer?(and again, not even in the US is this a uniform practice thankfully). Is the US right and everyone else wrong? Or is it this is another gimmick that has crept into the mass.

As on other threads, Melman is no traditionalist, I have debated with him on the kneeling for communion issue, but both of us agree that warm fuzzies are for after mass and in everyday life. As for cahncery office,s the reason why Traditionalists have not gotten much traction there is because so many are still dominated by dissident nuns and priests who are stuck in the 60s and 70s.
 
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DigitalDeacon:
I personally think - “A mountain is being made out of a mole hill” on this issue. If I am with my wife at Mass which is not very often because I am normally in the Santruary doing my Diaconal Duties, I hold hands with my wife. If this offends anyone I am not sorry. We don’t need the Liturgy Police telling me I can’t hold my wife of 41 years hand .

DigitalDeacon
**I have to say that I agree with you…I don’t know why people get so upset over this matter…If you don’t want to hold hands, don’t. Just put your hands in front of you, or do as I do, and put my hands in an open palmed positon (sort of orans)…I do hold hands with my husband, if he is with me. **

 
In response to my post :
Melman:
These are lovely sentiments, but in the context of behavior at mass, they are incorrect. Sorry.
Praise God! I am happy to be incorrect if it means loving my neighbor. I don’t have to be right, I just have to follow the example of my savior and love my neighbor as myself, even at Mass.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will renew our hearts with a fresh love for His children.
 
I wrote:
Too many people have left the Church because they never feel welcomed
Melman responded:
Then they didn’t understand why they were at Mass to begin with. Welcoming and warm fuzzies are for outside of Mass.
Are you a Calvinist?

Its simply too bad if they leave the Church, but after all they didn’t know why they were there to begin with so I guess they weren’t one of the elect anyway. Ho Humm no big loss…
This may not be what you want to convey, but it is what is felt on the receiving end.
 
It is interesting to note that altogether there are 6 pages discussing this issue - if you count both threads. There are not 6 pages about anything else on the whole Liturgy forum. Why is this such a hot button issue? There are so many worse abuses that one could upset about. I do not hold hands but if others do so, I don’t mind. It is not my place to decide what things can be done even though it doesn’t say you can or what things can’t be done even though it doesn’t say you can’t. It is not my place to decide that receiving the Eucharist in the hand where it approved is not as holy or valid as receiving on the tongue. It is not my place to say that mass should still be in Latin. Nor is it any individual’s right. It is the work of the Pope and Bishops together. I personally believe that so called Cafeteria Catholics who call themselves Catholic and think it is okay to support abortion rights, etc. and Traditional Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II are ALL just disobedient Catholics. I believe that when Christ founded His Church and said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it, he was serious and I can trust Him completely. I am done with this thread - it is discouraging to see all the uncharitable and unkind things and I am just as guilty - I apologize for anything unkind I have said and wish you all would think about whether you would speak to others in person as offensively as you do when you type. For instance, I wouldn’t think of saying to anyone, “Let me say this very s-l-o-w-l-y so you can understand…” in a discussion about church. It is rude and condescending.
 
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