Holding hands at the Lord's Prayer

[Veronica_Anne]

Fullsizesedan:

I hope you’re being sarcastic, but really people should have more respect for longstanding religious traditions in some churches.

When in Rome do as the Romans.

Um, I’m not sure what you mean by “longstanding.” This has only been going on for the last 15 years or so. And not everywhere, either.

As far as I can see from seeing Masses on TV celebrated other than the U.S., we Americans seem to be the only region in the world that does that “kumbaya” hand-holding thing at Mass.

And they CERTAINLY do NOT do that in Rome! OR Vatican City!!

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Beverly:

Trying to picture Jesus doing this or even just refusing to hold someone’s hand…Why would anyone be so offended by someone holding out their hand to you?!?

I do understand the liturgy and why we do things the way we do and I am obedient to that - but I personally will not refuse to hold someone’s hand when it is offered, probably out of them not knowing they are offending someone by this gesture. My husband recently became a Catholic after 17 years of marriage and lots of prayers and these types of discussions have him shaking his head in bewilderment at how caught up we get in rules and rubrics. Probably the hardest thing to explain to a new Catholic is how all this wrangling about whether it is okay to hold hands during the Our Father or whether we can move our hands in any way when we say “And also with you.” in answer to the priest is how this is not legalism. I agree that we have a lot of Catholics out there who do not understand their faith. But I would never want to hurt or embarrass someone who holds out their hand to me during a prayer and maybe cause them to feel so unwelcome that they don’t come back. I think some people need to take a step back and remember that we need to have a little love and compassion so we are not just a bunch of clanging cymbals. You could go to mass and do every little thing perfectly according to the rubrics and miss the point completely.

Um, it’s not that I’m “offended” by someone holding out their hand to me. It’s that holding hands is something you do ONLY with your husband (a sexual relationship) or (if you are single) someone of the other gender with whom you are in a romantic relationship.

Or if you’re a toddler and an adult is walking you across the street for your safety.

NOT if they’re a stranger. It just *creeps me out no end * to have to hold a stranger’s hand.

And being chastized for the sake of possibly “making them feel UNwelcome” is Not Good.

This is EXACTLY why there are rubrics! Not just so that EVERYbody knows what the gestures and postures are. It’s because our gestures and postures are to mean what they mean.

And holding hands is definitely NOT part of the rubrics. Anywhere.

It’s very distracting for me to even see this go on!

Where is the respect from them for me? See-- it’s a two-way street.

Speaking of which – I really DO wish that folks would look at me while they’re shaking my hand at the Sign of Peace – and not already looking toward the next person they’re planning to shake hands with.

At my parish, the Sign of Peace is getting to me more of a race to “hurry-up-and-shake-hands-with-everyone-within-reach-that-you-can-before-the-Mass-starts-up-again!”

As if the Sign of Peace, in itself, is NOT as much a part of the Mass as any other part.

Sigh. Thanks for listening. I’m obviously on a tear here.

 

[Beverly]

Veronica Anne:

Where is the respect from them for me? See-- it’s a two-way street.
QUOTE]

My point is that I am sure that no one who holds out their hand to you during prayer is in any way aware that they are disrespecting you. The problem is that not all priests are explaining the rubrics to their parishes and some people do not know what they are doing is wrong. I am just appalled to see so much anger and unkindness on this thread over something that is just innocent ignorance. I think until every parish priest explains this you are going to have people who reach out to others during the Lord’s Prayer and there has to be a way to handle this with kindness rather than threatening to wipe their nose on the offender’s hand. It could even be that some of those people reaching out their hand feel the same way you do but are trying not to hurt your feelings.

Holding hands is something I would not do with just anyone either. Although I disagree that it is only a romantic gesture or reserved for small children crossing streets. (I held my children’s hands as much as possible because I knew there would come a time when they wouldn’t want to…) I can think of times when I have held my grandmother’s hand in a companiable way when walking. A time when my friend held my hand in comfort when my nephew died. A woman who came to me and grabbed my hand and led me to the deacon for prayer when I was needing prayer so much that I could barely ask for it on my own. Also I work in the special ed dept at a high school with the most severely autistic and mentally challenged so it seems normal to me to hold hands without any romantic intentions. I realize not everyone would be comfortable doing this.

I am sorry if you felt I was chastising anyone for making people feel unwelcome but I do think one of the most important responsibilities we have is to lead others to Christ. I would hate to think of some poor searching soul coming into our church and seeing others reaching out during the Lord’s Prayer and doing the same only to be rebuffed by someone who is too caught up in the rubrics to recognize an opportunity to make someone feel welcome in God’s house. It is not my intention to chastise anyone but maybe to make other people aware that there are a lot of people out there who are in no way aware that anyone feels this way about holding hands during the Our Father and some of the reactions I have read here would hurt and humiliate them enough not to want to come back.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Beverly:

Veronica Anne:

Where is the respect from them for me? See-- it’s a two-way street.
QUOTE]

My point is that I am sure that no one who holds out their hand to you during prayer is in any way aware that they are disrespecting you. The problem is that not all priests are explaining the rubrics to their parishes and some people do not know what they are doing is wrong. I am just appalled to see so much anger and unkindness on this thread over something that is just innocent ignorance. I think until every parish priest explains this you are going to have people who reach out to others during the Lord’s Prayer and there has to be a way to handle this with kindness

rather than threatening to wipe their nose on the offender’s hand. It could even be that some of those people reaching out their hand feel the same way you do but are trying not to hurt your feelings.

Holding hands is something I would not do with just anyone either. Although I disagree that it is only a romantic gesture or reserved for small children crossing streets. (I held my children’s hands as much as possible because I knew there would come a time when they wouldn’t want to…) I can think of times when I have held my grandmother’s hand in a companiable way when walking. A time when my friend held my hand in comfort when my nephew died. A woman who came to me and grabbed my hand and led me to the deacon for prayer when I was needing prayer so much that I could barely ask for it on my own. Also I work in the special ed dept at a high school with the most severely autistic and mentally challenged so it seems normal to me to hold hands without any romantic intentions. I realize not everyone would be comfortable doing this.

I am sorry if you felt I was chastising anyone for making people feel unwelcome but I do think one of the most important responsibilities we have is to lead others to Christ. I would hate to think of some poor searching soul coming into our church and seeing others reaching out during the Lord’s Prayer and doing the same only to be rebuffed by someone who is too caught up in the rubrics to recognize an opportunity to make someone feel welcome in God’s house. It is not my intention to chastise anyone but maybe to make other people aware that there are a lot of people out there who are in no way aware that anyone feels this way about holding hands during the Our Father and some of the reactions I have read here would hurt and humiliate them enough not to want to come back.

Um… that thing about wiping the nose with someone else’s hand wasn’t me.

It’s unfortunate that you are uncomfortable with my anger at having someone else force themselves on me at Mass.

And it’s unfortunate that others who don’t know that what they’re doing is disrespecting my own personal space.

I am certainly aware that others have no clue that this is not a required gesture – to hold each others hands, I mean.

I was complaining about others who DO INSIST on grabbing MY hand at the Lord’s prayer.

I’m gonna stick with keeping my eyes closed and holding my own hands together during the Lord’s prayer.

 

[cmom]

If someone grab’s your hand you simply say “No thank you, that is not part of the Mass” and go on from there. Its no big deal. If you want to explain further after Mass you do so.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

cmom:

If someone grab’s your hand you simply say “No thank you, that is not part of the Mass” and go on from there. Its no big deal. If you want to explain further after Mass you do so.

That’s what I’ve been doing. Unfortunately, folks want to get into a discussion right then and there.

I’m just gonna keep on keeping my eyes closed and holding my own hands together until after the doxology and I can hear the rustling of people returning to where we all were before this all went on.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Amethyst]

Fullsizesedan:

The real reason, Karl , is that you’ve never been to an AA meeting. The tradition there has been to hold hands during the Our Father at the end of the meeting. I believe the AA tradition preceded the tradition of some churches to hold hands during this prayer.

Which is another reason I don’t like to hold hands during the Mass, Fullsize! (May I call you Fullsize?) I’ve sometimes found myself starting to blurt, “Keep coming back, it works!” at the end of the prayer…

DEFINITELY not in the rubrics…

 

[WhiteDove]

My policy is to look at the person next to me out of the corner of my eye, and take their hand if offered. Otherwise, I prefer not to hold hands. But, it’s definately a minor issue in the grand sceme of life, IMO.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut folks. I appreciate your sharing your experiences and points of view.

It all comes down to the division that happens even within a parish when a rubric is not consistently obeyed and followed. No wonder converts and newbies get confused… folks are choosing to disobey the rubric… or just aren’t educated about that particular rubric that they’re breaking so that they can make the choice to obey it, or not.

Having said that, it is STILL incredibly DISTRACTING to me to even have to deal with a disobedience to the established rubrics.

If the Congregation of Divine Faith ever changes a rubric, I hope that our local parish priest lets us all know.

We’ve FINALLY stopped applauding the music group at the end of Mass. It took the Bishop to put out a notice to all the parishes in the diocese about that.

Our bishop made it very clear to us, in clear, clean English – that we are NOT to applaud the music group or singers who lead us during the Mass… any more than we are to applaud the acolytes or the lectors or the ushers. These are their ministries. They are trained and skilled in their ministries just as much as the singing group (if there is one) are trained and skilled in THEIR ministry.

Our bishop said, too, that if we WANT to – we can certainly go up after Mass to thank the singers if we are so inclined.

I’m SO GLAD that he came out and made that all clear – because for way too long I’ve been leaving Mass with a sense that I’ve just been to a theatrical play at which I’d have to applaud the singing group in order to be polite.

Again, folks. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I’m going to continue to keep my eyes closed and hold my hands loosely linked together at my waistband during the Lord’s prayer… and opening my eyes only when the Agnus Dei starts.

 

[Beverly]

Veronica Anne:

Um… that thing about wiping the nose with someone else’s hand wasn’t me.QUOTE]

I know it was not you. I was referring to the angry and hostile tone to many of the posts. There are so many injustices in this world that we can get angry about - this is not one of them but you have answered all of my posts with …um…sarcasm and anger although I have read back over my posts to see if I had a sarcastic tone and am sorry if you think I did. And yes, your anger does make me uncomfortable - it isn’t necessary!

 

[WhiteDove]

Why is this such a huge deal? I still don’t get it. Why not everyone just be sensitive to the person next to then, and not take it personally if they like or dislike holding hands? Don’t assume they like to, not everyone likes being touched. But, what’s the harm in holding some little old lady’s hand if it’s important to her?

My girls seem to like it, it makes them feel included I believe. Anyways, I personally just go with the flow try to concentrate on the prayer. Focus on the prayer and all will be well!

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Beverly:

Veronica Anne:

Um… that thing about wiping the nose with someone else’s hand wasn’t me.QUOTE]

I know it was not you. I was referring to the angry and hostile tone to many of the posts. There are so many injustices in this world that we can get angry about - this is not one of them but you have answered all of my posts with …um…sarcasm and anger although I have read back over my posts to see if I had a sarcastic tone and am sorry if you think I did. And yes, your anger does make me uncomfortable - it isn’t necessary!

It’s unfortunate that you thought I was answering your posts in anger at YOU, personally. That was never my intent.

I’m equally surprised that you read that I was being sarcastic.

My anger is at what I see happening in liturgical abuse in America. The liturgy IS the liturgy. It’s not a point that lay people can decide how to celebrate the Mass like they decide how to throw a private party. It’s simply not our right nor our calling.

This is, after all, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

It is the lay person’s role to obediently follow the Magesterium, including the rubrics for Mass.

I’m just pointing that out.

For the entire world to read if they have access to this post of mine, just to give it some light – recently at Confession I confessed my trouble with a priest who at every Mass that he celebrates he invites whomever is celebrating a birthday, or a wedding anniversary, or the like to come around the altar and they all hold hands while he reads the first part of the Eucharistic Prayer.



My confessor, agreeing that this was definitely liturgical abuse, gave me as my penance to pray for him – because priests have it tough like the rest of us.

Of course, I’m practicing that penance.

Still… that doesn’t mean that I can’t put my point across when it comes to discussing this liturgical abuse with other lay people.

Thanks for listening. And no, I’m NOT trying to be sarcastic or angry. I’m just frustrated and distracted no end by someone insisting on grabbing my hand at the Lord’s prayer like they have a right to do so… or like they are SUPPOSED to do so.

Whether they’ve ever even HEARD of the GIRM… knoweldgeable or not… they do NOT have the right to grab my hand unless I offer it.

Even simple courtesy says that. Which is what weirds me out even more when they get this “hurt” look on their face when I simply avoid taking their hand and continuing to speak the words of the Lord’s prayer.

Jesus doesn’t want all this to be going on. I’m just being bulled into it – and resent that.

Sigh.

Please pray for me like I pray for you. Thanks!

 

[Agnes]

This hand-holding issue seems so funny to me, because of my own experience. I had a period of years where I moved quite a bit. One day I went to Mass at a new church and everyone joined hands for the Our Father. Something new to me. “Hmmm, I guess it’s a nice idea,” I thought, “but probably peculiar to this parish.” Then time went on and I moved to other parishes and realized this was the norm. So I just assumed it was some new practice encouraged by the bishops to foster feelings of unity. I never examined it too closely from a theological viewpoint, I merely hoped the person next to me did not have a cold.

Then, about a year ago, at my small local church, where they still do the hand-holding, during the sign of peace a woman visiting from a large urban town could not resist whispering to me, “You are all so behind the times here! The Vatican instituted this hand-holding years ago, but now the Pope has changed his mind and we’re not supposed to be doing it anymore.” (So it came from the Holy See, no less!)

Oh my! If only the bishops would only take responsibility to keep their flock (the priests) in line, maybe communication would be clear and people would not get confused, or even disgusted, and opt out for the local Protestant church where things seems so simple. The Catholic faith is simple, and beautiful, if it’s taught correctly, and not melded in with a bunch of psychobabble.

 

[Beverly]

I realize that things can be very frustrating in any parish - you are taking people from so many different backgrounds and different levels of understanding and putting them together to worship in one place. It is different from Protestant churches because Protestants search for a “church home” and find one where people feel the way they do about things and the preacher believes the same way they do. In the Catholic church it is not that way - we all are supposed to be on the same page. But we are human. As for me I have attended the same church - the only Catholic Church around until very recently - since I was 6 months old. Sometimes I get very discouraged because all my kids friends go to Protestant churches and their youth groups are so well funded and organized (or at least it appears that way from the outside) while we just struggle to keep a program going. We have the added problems (and joys) that go along with having a very racially diverse parish so we have to juggle Spanish and English and any big celebration has to be bilingual (and sometimes trilingual and more if you throw in Philipino and Indian). Things will never be perfect on this earth. We struggle all the time to keep all the lectors and choirs and such following the guidelines correctly.

But sometimes don’t you feel that God is just kind of shaking his head and thinking " Why don’t they just set down the books and lists of rules and just love each other?" I know this may be simplistic, but isn’t it a nice thought? We are called to love the unlovable - to see Jesus in everyone around us including the rude person beside us reaching out to grab our hand in church and not wanting to take no for an answer. Personally, I have never had anyone actually grab my hand. I think so many misunderstandings could be avoided by the priests talking very clearly about what we should be doing not just once but every so often. I know as humans we need guidelines to help us make sense of everything. I guess a nice thing to remember is that we won’t need rubrics when we get to heaven - everyone there will see everything clearly and we will all be worshipping perfectly together for all of eternity.

I like to remember that, even in dealing with my Protestant in-laws, that we are all searching and striving for the same thing - to be closer to Christ and more like Him every day. It is better to emphasize our shared beliefs than to argue about how we differ. So may Christ’s peace be with you, Veronica Anne!

 

[kongulo]

I have all the right reasons for pronouncing 'holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer" is wrong. I don’t need to listen from others why holding hands makes them feel good, nor do I need to defend why I have these reasons. I don’t need either to go through all elaborate actions to avoid holding hands like sneezing, holding a prayer book, closing my eyes and pretend deep piety. I just don’t hold hands, and I thank God for making me an instrument to teach my beloved Catholic brothers and sisters next to me that not holding hands is the correct and proper thing to do during mass, and has all the reasons to be correct and proper. I will use words to teach them after the mass if words become necessary in the teaching.

I am also happy to learn from your posts here, and am glad to discover that I am not alone with this sentiment.

 

[WhiteDove]

If this is such an important issue, why in the heck don’t the priests announce that it’s not allowed? This is ridiculous.

It seems that most places I go outside of my parish, it’s the norm. Where I live, there are two small parishes that share one priest. They are 2 miles apart but have their own identities. One has the vigil Mass and the 10AM Mass. At the 10 AM Mass they are definately into it. At the vigil it’s a mixed group. The other parish has the 8 AM Mass, is extremely traditional, doesn’t allow women readers, a lot like to take communion kneeling, only altar boys, and they offer only under one species. Hand holding is pretty much non-existant there.

The priest here seems to like to stick to the rules, but he’s never said anything about this. I think he likes to allow some individual preferences expressed, and lets the two parishes set their own rules. One thing he doesn’t tolerate is poorly trained altar servers.

Anyways, people ought to not be pushy about their handholding. It’s absurd to be offended about this.

 

[Marie]

Agnes:

Then, about a year ago, at my small local church, where they still do the hand-holding, during the sign of peace a woman visiting from a large urban town could not resist whispering to me, “You are all so behind the times here! The Vatican instituted this hand-holding years ago, but now the Pope has changed his mind and we’re not supposed to be doing it anymore.” (So it came from the Holy See, no less!)

She may have been sincere, but she was sincerely mistaken. The Vatican never instituted it. It was and is a goofy fad which the Vatican finally said “NO, it is not the norm nor has it ever been”

That is another problem we see a lot of. Someone goes off course and then someone else says the Vatican say’s to do it. Then the misinformation and the liturgical error’s spread and become instituted. Eventually the Vatican has to correct them. That is all they did when it became evident that it was becoming a widespread problem.

 

[Marys_daughter]

no text

 

[Karl_Keating]

WhiteDove:

The priest here seems to like to stick to the rules, but he’s never said anything about this. I think he likes to allow some individual preferences expressed, and lets the two parishes set their own rules. One thing he doesn’t tolerate is poorly trained altar servers.

Anyways, people ought to not be pushy about their handholding. It’s absurd to be offended about this.

By your own account, the priest doesn’t “stick to the rules.” Hand holding at the Our Father is not authorized by the rubrics and therefore should not be permitted by a priest. A priest who does permit it or who encourages it is not “sticking by the rules,” at least with respect to this one item.

The Mass is the universal prayer of the Church. Priests are not permitted to ad lib the prayers of the Mass because the Mass thereby becomes their private prayer. Similarly, parishes are not allowed to “set their own rules.” The more they are permitted to do so, the less they are in union with other Catholics.

Lastly, it is not “absurd to be offended about” the hand holding. Granted, it is a smaller abuse than many others seen at Mass, but it is an abuse nonetheless, and no abuse should be waved off as inconsequential.

 

[WhiteDove]

Well, I personally refuse to let this issue distract me from the prayer. If others want to worry about it, feel free. As I say, it’s totally widespread in the Diocese of Yakima, including the Cathedral. It was done at a recent Mass I attended presided over by Biship Sevilla. I noticed it at Blessed Sacrament in Seattle (a Dominican Parish), and when I went to California recently, it was done there. In fact, the only church I haven’t seen it done in is this local 8 AM parish here.

So, I will leave it to the higher authorities to address the matter. Maybe you can send a note to Bishop Sevilla, of Yakima. Our previous Bishop, Francis George also permitted it.