Holding hands at the Lord's Prayer

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I don’t hold hands during the Our Father because it is not a prayer of unity. Reception of the Eucharist is all the unity I need. At Mass this morning I had a lady actually grab my hand after I tried to politely refuse to hold her hand. I dropped her hand and Mouthed “no” to her. Perhaps this wasn’t charitable but I tried to warmly shake her hand at the sign of peace afterward. Protestants and Fundamentalists accuse us of adding man made traditions, this is one time I think they are right. I try to assume a prayerful posture, just not holding hands. The only time I have ever been exposed to hand holding at prayer is a non-denominational prayer group at the office.
 
Protestants and Fundamentalists accuse us of adding man made traditions, this is one time I think they are right. I try to assume a prayerful posture, just not holding hands. The only time I have ever been exposed to hand holding at prayer is a non-denominational prayer group at the office.

I’m happy to hear you have a non-denominational (is that the same as ecumenical?) prayer group at your office! But how is it that the ACLU has not filed a lawsuit against your company? (Ha ha.) Partly joking here, but do be discreet, it’s getting to be like the early days of Christianity when believers had to meet in secret to avoid persecution.
 
Our priest did announce it wasn’t part of the Mass, it wasn’t necessary, so kindly don’t do it.
It isn’t big deal to do things the way they are supposed to be done.
 
At least your priest announced it. Ours (so far) is just “live and let live” about it.

Not to change topic exactly, but we’ve got ANOTHER little abuse going on right along with the hand-holding at the Our Father-- and THAT is the “orans” posture. Honestly, at the church, 1/3 of them are holding hands and another 1/3 are standing there with their hands out a mile wide all the way through “Deliver us Lord from every temptation. . .”.

It looks like a circus, it’s incredibly distracting, and both postures are just plain wrong.

I don’t want someone to hold my hand. I don’t want to be elbowed by somebody standing in a “trance” doing the “orans.”
I don’t want to tap dance down the aisles doing the “kiss of peace” to all and sundry.

If we can’t be unified in our outward appearance, we are even less likely to be unified INWARDLY, or so I believe.
 
Gee, hasn’t anybody ever heard the saying, “Don’t sweat the small stuff!” Why don’t you all look around and see if there is anything really important to get upset about? Personally, I have many things that are much bigger to get upset about. Like … the woman next to me at church who is suffering from uterine cancer, the kids at my church who are attending Faith Formation classes but their parents barely bring them to mass ever, my good friend who is Catholic but thinks it is better to vote for someone who is pro-abortion just because he is Democrat, a student at school who is being burned with a curling iron by her mother when she misbehaves, the war in Iraq, world peace, I could go on and on and still never get to whether someone is holding hands or holding out their hands during the Lord’s Prayer.

Yes, people should follow the rules…I do, but I am not going to get angry and judge people based on their posture during a prayer - it is petty and legalistic. If you are spending so much time looking around to see how others are standing or worrying if someone is going to touch you (God forbid) you need to stop and worry about the message you are sending to others who are searching for Christ. Again, I am appalled at the mean-spirited and unkind rantings on this forum which you would think would be a place you might read something that sounded a little more Christ-like - isn’t that what we should be striving for? To be Christ-like! It is so much easier to follow all of the rules exactly than to be loving to people who may not be lovable, but the latter is more important. Read Luke 6 - Jesus broke the rules sometimes too. The rubrics are important but I will take Scripture over that anyday. I know that there will be replies saying “But the rubrics say…” My reply? “But the Scriptures say, " I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace.” (Eph 4:1-3) AND “Above all, let your love for one another be intense, because love covers a multitude of sins.” (1Peter 4:8)
 
Why is it mean-spirited to expect people to do things the way the Church asks?

Obedience to rules is not being legalistic, its being obedient in love.
 
Dear C-mom,
She might not have meant you personally. But, believe it or not, there are some people who spend their time at Mass critiqueing the behaviour of others. Yes, it’s been known to happen, I’ve heard the most petty negative comments myself, while meanwhile the critic had apparently totally missed the inspiring homily, beautiful music, or otherwise startling presence of our Lord.

So, while you, yourself, may have been focused purely on Love through obedience to our Lord, I know that I have heard condemning comments by others that have very clearly not reflected Christ’s Love.

Also, I must say, 6 years ago, while the two parishes run by one priest here where I attend church were involved in a Corinthian style civil war over some of these minor liturgical matters, I was suffering greatly as a new widow, with 2 little girls 3 and 1, and not one offer of help to me extended because apparently the truely most important matter was whether one held hands during the Our Father or not! This attitude almost drove me from the Church and it hurt me badly!
 
My Parish holds hands also. I have asked our Priest about this and he feels as iif it promotes the togetherness of the community. My parish also sings the prayer. I prefer to recite the prayer. I have also discussed this with our Priest and he said he may see about singing it on occasions and reciting at others. I am a new Catholic and I have to wonder what is the right thing to do.
 
That being said, if this is matter is causing these divisions, I wish the higher ups would lay down the law clearly. It’s weak leadership that is causing this confusion. I’d be more than happy to get rid of this silly hand holding with all these different expectations and standards by the people in the pews.I’ll bet half the people don’t even know it’s a controversy.
 
put me down as a vote against the holding of hands during the Lords Prayer (at least with someone who does not reach for you), I have no proablem holding the hand of someone who reaches for my hand (usually my wife and son) because who knows, that person may need the physical contact to feel closer to God and community…, so i couldn’t refuse, albiet i would prefer not to have to be looking to see if someone offers… 👍
 
Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found…

Abominations!!!

Christ had a few things to say to the Pharisees, and not a little of that was directed to their legalistic, moralistic, minimalistic attitudes.

No, it is not in the rubrics. And with the introduction of the new GIRM, with all the howls of agony, angst and anger from the conservatives over holding hands during the Our Father, one cannot assume they were unaware of the issue.

And most interestingly, they chose not to address it. Logically, that puts it fairly close to the end of the spectrum called “non-issues”.

Your personal space was invaded! Heavens, that you should need to be charitable towards someone else in the bench! How uncouth of them to not realize how visceral an issue this is with you…

Beverly, you go, girl (in the words of my twin daughters)!

Yes, it is not liturgically sound, for probably several reasons. Yes, if no one did it, it would be perfectly fine with me. But I have yet to see anyone hold hands as something they are trying to force on someone else; never have I seen it done as an uncharitable act. I have seen people refuse it in a very uncharitable manner. I swear, some people would refuse to hold Christ’s hand if he were standing next to them, nail marks and all. And I was taught that I was to see Christ in the person next to me.

As one of the most charitable people I’ve ever witnessed, I would point to Mother Theresa; she washed the bodies of the dying; people with open sores. I’d bet whe knew the rubrics about as well as anyone. AndI’d also bet that if some stranger reached out to hold hands during the Our Father, she would hold on tight; she wouldn’t worry about whether or not they had a cold, or her personal space, or think it an abomination of the rubrics of the Mass.

I am all for following the rubrics; however 1) it is not addressed (particularly when the bishops chose, after it had occured for a long time, not to address the issue), 2) on the scale of liturgical abuses, it is so minor as to pale into insignificance; 3) charity says you give of yourself, not demand your own way.

The only truly charitable respons I’ve seen in this thread is Beverly. You all would do well to reread her comments; you might even want to write them down and take them along with you and meditate on them during your next prayer time. She truly gets it.
 
Well, I was at the spring concert at the school and sat next to a Catholic fellow that I know who was there to see his grandchildren. We started discussing this topic, among other things. He, apparently, is a pro-handholding kind a guy, and seemed to think it was very proper. I told him about this forum, and this particular thread, and that folks seem to feel it’s against the rules in a big way. I mentioned that Karl Keating had chimed in about it being a big no no and all. He was surprised about that fact. Anyways, he was pretty passionate about it being proper. The guy is a very involved type churchgoer, along with his wife.

This fellow seemed very adament and particular about his POV. He mentioned the proper way to bow before receiving the host, that genuflecting was taboo now, that only the bow was proper. He also seemed to think it was improper NOT to hold hands! I told him that I had heard that genuflecting was a-okay. The fellow also was a big fan of standing before and after communion. He said all these things were unity things. I told him that I dislike holding hands, it’s just not my thing, but that I like to just do what seems to be the norm where I go. Anyways, I did detect a little intolerance on his part for people who aren’t crazy about all these changes and didn’t like these details of the Mass handled in the same way he did. But, we had a nice conversation anyways…

Anyways, all this hairsplitting over church ettiquette does seem a bit Un-Christlike. Do you think St Peter will be asking people at the pearly gates if they were handholding during the Lord’s Prayer? Somehow, I doubt it. In fact, I’ll bet some people might read this thread and start thinking “These people need therapy!”
 
Veronica Anne:
It all comes down to the division that happens even within a parish when a rubric is not consistently obeyed and followed. No wonder converts and newbies get confused… folks are choosing to disobey the rubric… or just aren’t educated about that particular rubric that they’re breaking so that they can make the choice to obey it, or not.
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Amen to the point of confusion! I recently converted from the Episcopal Church, and we kneeled during the Lord’s Prayer. And we bowed our heads as we kneeled to receive communion.

I sometimes feel funny showing what I feel is less reverence (in my actions, that is) for what I now know is truly our Lord present than I did for what was merely a piece of bread. During RCIA I heard some of the folks talking about how they thought the reverence had decreased during the mass. I remember telling my sister (she was received in the Church about 17 years ago) that knowing what I know now, I felt that we should all be prostrating ourselves, but if that was not practical, I thought it sad that we didn’t genuflect or kneel at least. A bow is such a miniscule motion. During RCIA, I would go up for a blessing and watch as others received the Eucharist to try to figure out how they were doing it. From my experience most people’s bow wasn’t even noticable. Previously, I knew my children could watch me and everyone else receive and would be able to learn just by watching. I’m afraid that now, they will think you just walk up with your hands out 😦

I found the whole hand holding thing to be a bit disconcerting and I for one don’t particularly care for it. But when you are new and don’t know the liturgical details, you don’t want to be doing the opposite of what everyone else is. So in effect, the hand holding was imposed on you. I would really like to see the bishops and/or priests knock this one out. I feel it detracts from the reverence of the mass. Get enough things detracting from that, and pretty soon you have people doing all sorts of things…

God bless,

Ken
 
Beverly:

The point is that the point of reciting the Lord’s Prayer is to recite the prayer that Our Saviour gave us. You won’t convince me that holding a total stranger’s hand doesn’t detract from this very important part of the Mass.

It’s wrong and it’s just another incursion of relativist philosophy into the Holy Mass. If it were a necessary part of the Mass, it would written into Canon law.
 
Nostalgia is such an interesting thing. Now it is suggested that we go back to the1962 Missal (Tridentine Mass). I’ve been around long enough to see what occured during those Masses years ago. People showed up physically, but mentally one would question why they were there; there was a great popularity in saying the Rosary during Mass; reading a book of miscellaneous prayers and devotions, or just simply being present (and no, they did not speak Latin). One of the great questions was “How late can I come and still meet my Sunday obligation”, which was followed by “How soon can I leave and still…”
I have seen more awareness of what is happening since we moved to English; I’ve seen a greater awareness of Scripture. One can be just as reverent holding someone else’s hand as not holding it.

I am neither in favor of holding hands, nor in favor of not holding hands. I understand enough of liturgical action and posture to know that it is not the best we could do. But I have to agree with Beverly that the responses in this thread seem to lack an essential element; that of Christian charity to our neighbor. There are a large number of people who live alone (and they are not all elderly), for whom the only human touch they receive that week might be from you. If you want to withhold that touch, and stand on the rubrics which simply don’t address it, then perhaps you may want to go back and read the Gospels, and highlight the times Christ spoke to the Pharisees, and re-read the comments he made to them.
 
You know otm, as cliche’ as this is, the more things change, the more they stay the same. The 15 minuite low mass mentality that was all too common Pre Vatican II still dominates liturgical life today. While there may be more hymns sung since most sunday masses now have a chior, the active participation from the parishoners is still minimal, and the extreme horizontalisation of the liturgy has done much to diminish the belief in the real presence in the eucharist. I often have seen people just take the host in their hand in a casual manner then head out for the door, hardly an imporvment.

The hand holding during the lords prayer is not needed, it is not part of the mass, and it further horizontalises the mass, and I will not participate in hand holding during the lords prayer when I am in such situations, because I come to mass to worship God, not the community. The reverence, and it is possible with the current missal, is what will help restore the faith to where it has been lost, not gimmicks, not forced particpation, not a need to dumb down the liturgy.
 
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otm:
Nostalgia is such an interesting thing. Now it is suggested that we go back to the1962 Missal (Tridentine Mass). I’ve been around long enough to see what occured during those Masses years ago. People showed up physically, but mentally one would question why they were there; there was a great popularity in saying the Rosary during Mass; reading a book of miscellaneous prayers and devotions, or just simply being present (and no, they did not speak Latin). One of the great questions was “How late can I come and still meet my Sunday obligation”, which was followed by “How soon can I leave and still…”
I have seen more awareness of what is happening since we moved to English; I’ve seen a greater awareness of Scripture. One can be just as reverent holding someone else’s hand as not holding it.

I am neither in favor of holding hands, nor in favor of not holding hands. I understand enough of liturgical action and posture to know that it is not the best we could do. But I have to agree with Beverly that the responses in this thread seem to lack an essential element; that of Christian charity to our neighbor. There are a large number of people who live alone (and they are not all elderly), for whom the only human touch they receive that week might be from you. If you want to withhold that touch, and stand on the rubrics which simply don’t address it, then perhaps you may want to go back and read the Gospels, and highlight the times Christ spoke to the Pharisees, and re-read the comments he made to them.
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Last I checked there were no vernacular languages prior to Novus Ordo except in rites other than the Roman. Let’s not get into a debate over this, because you will lose.
 
As AnnieM pointed out, I noticed this in the Philadelphia area about 30 years ago, among people who had attended the Marriage Encounter weekend. As Karl pointed out, it’s a very intimate gesture, and perhaps it was appropriate for husband and wife to hold hands while asking to “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” But somehow the hand-holding spread to everyone in the congregation. As Karl pointed out, it’s a let down to just shake hands afterwards.
 
Hey, OTM, good posts! I was feeling a little lonely (as I am sure I would feel going to mass with some of these folks). I have yet to figure out how holding hands (which I also could take or leave) dampens down anyone’s reverence for the Eucharist. Only recently has anyone ever told us here in the booney’s where Catholicism is rare and considered strange by most people that we were supposed to bow in the communion line. I am glad we do - I do think it adds to the reverence. Strangely the same people who started doing this first and follow the rubrics to the letter also do not think it is right for our first communion children to dress in white or be in any way made to feel special on their special day. When I think back to my First Communion Day, I remember it with awe. I had such a strong childlike faith and such reverence and awe for the Body and Blood of Jesus. I felt special not because of who I was but who I was going to receive in the Eucharist. However God made me human and knows that as I grow older all sorts of distractions made me have to say “Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!” That, I think, is when REAL faith steps in - when you have to continue to act upon what you know to be true even when the feelings are not there.

OTM, you and I are fighting a losing battle with trying to reason with people who put the rubrics before anything else. I was taught that mass is worshipping as a COMMUNITY - that is why it is not okay to just pray at home or in the forest. Jesus called us to share a meal, but some of these people would rather just see it as a drive thru window - “just give me my food and don’t make me talk to anyone else”. We are gathering in communion with everyone else at mass everywhere and all the angels and saints to worship. God is not less worshipped if we notice the others around us. (in a good way rather than just checking to see if they are doing it right!) Remember the Great Commandment that all the others stem from - to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind AND to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus spent a lot of time urging people to love others even if it broke the rules (hint - the Samaritan was the enemy of the Jews) and not one bit of time telling people to be sure to follow the rubrics.

OTM, do you know the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist? You can negotiate with a terrorist. 😃

Just joking - some of my favorite people at church feel as some of you do and I love them too. I just am not allowed to show it during mass…HAHAHA
 
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