Holding hands during the Our Father

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FAB said:
The point is that since this practice is considered as a local custom, it falls upon local dioceses, i.e bishop, to decide how to address it, not Rome and is not illicit, a term primary used when dealing with the effect on a sacrament.
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And where is holding hands an established local custom, protected by canon law?
 
benedictgal said:
Nice try, FAB, but, that is for the Phillipines. The statement does not have universal authority.
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I realize that it doesn’t have univeral authority. That has been my point, that there has been no universal decision as to the practice, no universal agreement.
I have seen a statment that the practice is illicit, or is not allowed based on an opinion from supposed credible authority which neither is the case.
If the practice is either of these things, then why is there a decison for Philipines that is opposit of those opinions? Are they somehow not in communion with the Church?

Peace,
FAB
 
ProVobis said:
And where is holding hands an established local custom, protected by canon law?
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Conon Law refers back to liturgical documents
D) Norms for adapting the Liturgy to the culture and traditions of peoples
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  1. Even in the liturgy,** the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community**; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples’ way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit.
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  1. Provisions shall also be made, when revising the liturgical books, for legitimate variations and adaptations to different groups, regions, and peoples, especially in mission lands, provided that the substantial unity of the Roman rite is preserved; and this should be borne in mind when drawing up the rites and devising rubrics
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roadsend said:
You follow your liturgist or whomever you please.
I will follow Rome.

This ritual of hand holding is not in the rubrics. It is not approved by Rome. It is disruptive and often extremely rude. It is every bit as illicit as snake handling or rolling in the aisles.
I will not participate in this ritual in any way, shape, or form and I will speak out against it whenever the subject is raised.
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  • Hand holding has not been disapproved by Rome.
  • Hand holding can be disruptive.
  • I personally have not found the practice to have been extremely rude. I’m from the Midwest, so perhaps other parts of the country have had extremely rude experiences.
  • I respect your choice not to participate in hand holding nor should you feel compelled to do so.
  • I think it is a fair topic to speak out against. Keep in mind however, that it hasn’t been disapproved of by Rome so others are free to accept the practice.
 
Personally, I’m hoping they’ll re-introduce the Kiss of Peace. I’ll position myself carefully between two pretty girls and then, bingo! Heaven on Earth!

[heh heh]
 
Stylteralmaldo said:
  • Hand holding has not been disapproved by Rome.
  • Hand holding can be disruptive.
  • I personally have not found the practice to have been extremely rude. I’m from the Midwest, so perhaps other parts of the country have had extremely rude experiences.
  • I respect your choice not to participate in hand holding nor should you feel compelled to do so.
  • I think it is a fair topic to speak out against. Keep in mind however, that it hasn’t been disapproved of by Rome so others are free to accept the practice.
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It has been disapproved by Rome.
We are NOT free to introduce unapproved rituals/practices into the Mass.
Both of these points are discussed earlier in the thread.
 
I’m curious, what would actually happen if the Vatican declared that there should be no holding of hands during the Our Father? I know of many people that do this, and I don’t think that many would willingly cease to do it. There’s even one parish in my town where it’s pretty much mandatory, as the entire congregation participates in it, and anyone who doesn’t gets funny looks from everyone else. I doubt they would simply give up holding hands if the Vatican told them to do so.
 
"roadsend:
It has been disapproved by Rome.
We are NOT free to introduce unapproved rituals/practices into the Mass.
Both of these points are discussed earlier in the thread.
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But it appears that the bishop or bishop’s conference can allow changes such as holding of hands:
roadsend said:
Sacrosanctum Consilium says:
"Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority."
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Prior to this statement, Sacrosanctum Consilium says:
"1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop."

"2. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established."
  1. Could there be laws within the church given to the bishop which would allow for the holding of hands? In other words, if the bishop allows congregants within his diocese to hold hands, wouldn’t that then make it licit?
  2. Could the holding of hands fall within the realm of the ‘certain defined limits’ that belong legitimately to the USCCB? I doubt the USCCB would have made any pronouncement regarding the holding of hands, but if they have, that could be pretty convincing evidence for me. The document from the Vatican seems to allow for the USCCB to make such a ruling regarding the holding of hands from my reading of the document.
 
forgive me everyone, but i just couldn’t help myself.

i know there are several polls out there already, but i wanted to be a bit more specific in terms of those times when you are not surrounded by family members. if this poll shows that most people do not prefer holding hands, then hopefully it will serve as a tool to help make this custom go away. if so we could print out the results and mail or email them to our Bishops. 🙂

another Hand-Holding Poll

if you have a minute, please vote.

thanks.
 
Biedrik said:
I’m curious, what would actually happen if the Vatican declared that there should be no holding of hands during the Our Father? I know of many people that do this, and I don’t think that many would willingly cease to do it. There’s even one parish in my town where it’s pretty much mandatory, as the entire congregation participates in it, and anyone who doesn’t gets funny looks from everyone else. I doubt they would simply give up holding hands if the Vatican told them to do so.
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I would guess that many would continue this illicit ritual, as they did after the pronouncements during the '70, when the ritual had just started in a few places.
Perhaps this is why the bishops have not been more outspoken in condemning this illicit ritual. They suspect that thousands would openly defy them and they just don’t want to have to deal with it…
How many folks actually follow what the Church says that we should do at Mass? (bow during the Credo and at Communion etc.)
The bishops might just be focusing on what they see as more important issues, although some of them obviously agree with this ritual.
 
Unless I’ve missed it somewhere on the thread, can anyone provide a source for Rome’s disapproving of the custom? At least in my mind, it would settle the debate right there.
 
Lycorth said:
Unless I’ve missed it somewhere on the thread, can anyone provide a source for Rome’s disapproving of the custom? At least in my mind, it would settle the debate right there.
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There’s no such source.
 
Biedrik said:
I’m curious, what would actually happen if the Vatican declared that there should be no holding of hands during the Our Father? I know of many people that do this, and I don’t think that many would willingly cease to do it. There’s even one parish in my town where it’s pretty much mandatory, as the entire congregation participates in it, and anyone who doesn’t gets funny looks from everyone else. I doubt they would simply give up holding hands if the Vatican told them to do so.
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I would like to see the Vatican ban hand holding at the Lord’s prayer, and I would love to see the sign of peace be moved towards the begining of the Mass or just taken out 🙂
 
I’ve only been to Mass twice at this parish. The first time I was pretty overwhelmed and everyone held hands (myself included). That time it seemed as if everyone was doing it. The second time I went I sat near the front (the place where I’m most comfortable in Church - less distractions when there are less in front of you 🙂 ) and when it came time for the Our Father the lady beside me didn’t reach for my hand and I didn’t reach for hers. I noticed that the majority of people in front of me were not holding hands (I checked mostly to make sure I wasn’t doing something wrong - I know NOTHING about Mass, I am learning by watching).

In the end I enjoyed the not hand holding much more. I focused all my attention on the Father (I love that posture of hands upheld towards the heavens - dunno why but it just touches me).

Anyway, the hand holding made me uncomfortable. I’m not going to lie… but not so much that I would leave if it was imposed on me every service. If those beside me wish to hold hands I will take their hand. Refusing to do so would make them uncomfortable and I have no desire to do that.

Unless it is expressly forbidden by the Church I will allow this slight discomfort to make my neighbors more comfortable. I will not reach for anyone’s hand, but if they reach for mine I will take it.

That’s just my position on this. 🙂 As a not-yet-Catholic and not completely understanding the Mass Christian.
 
archangel04 said:
I would like to see the Vatican ban hand holding at the Lord’s prayer, and I would love to see the sign of peace be moved towards the begining of the Mass or just taken out 🙂
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Considering that the revised Roman Missal has been approved with niether provision, you may be waiting for a while.
Peace,
FAB
 
archangel04 said:
I would like to see the Vatican ban hand holding at the Lord’s prayer, and** I would love to see the sign of peace be moved towards the begining of the Mass **or just taken out 🙂
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I would love that myself. It really seems out of place and illogical to me to have us turn to one another when the Blessed Sacrament has just been consecrated and Jesus is right there on the altar. HE is the focus of my attention at that point, I just cannot turn away from Him in order to shake hands with others.
It just plain interrupts the flow of Mass and feels disrespectful.

I’m trying to get into the habit of wishing my brothers and sisters the Peace of Christ as I am entering the Church.
 
I couldn’t care less if you hold hands or not. I’ve done it a few times, and it’s not made me uncomfortable. If you want to do it, go ahead, if you don’t…don’t; it’s that simple. Nobody is forcing you to do it. The sign of peace isn’t mandatory either. Sometimes our priest walks down and offers the sign of peace. Heck, it’s the only part of Mass anybody really smiles and looks alive. Every Catholic church I have ever been to in my life, everyone stands there and looks like zombies. I am usually the only young person there though too hahaha.
 
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