Holy Cow!

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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I wonder if God, who created the cow, thinks she’s beautiful or ugly, or if she would look better as a purse or a hamburger.
Both.

Seriously. I understand the reasons for suggesting that using only grain makes more food available. The flaw in the argument is the notion that we are running out of farmland and food. It’s a lie.

There are over 6 billion people on the planet. If they were all gathered together, they could all be comfortably contained in the State of Texas with 1200 sqaure feet per person! I didn’t believe it when I read it. I did the math myself. It checks. Now think of that. All of the people of the world could fit into the State of Texas with 1200 square feet per person. That means that the bulk of the land mass on earth is uninhabited. There’s plenty of room to grow crops.

The farmers in the US have resorted repeatedly to burning crops because the excess would drive down prices. Relief agencies were limited by how much it cost to transport the crops and by local war lords who seize grain shipments as a tool of war to starve their rival tribes (See Somalia). Our famines are man made. The predictions of Malthus et al. never came to be.

If you want to focus on a real horror story relative to the food supply, it is the issue of transgenic plants and the increasing use of a relatively few genetically enhanced hybrid strains. One good blight affecting one of those few strains and it’s mass starvation.

The solutions to world hunger are political and military, breaking the stranglehold of local warlords on UN relief supplies. The requirements of vegan diets are too technical for most people in order to assure an adequate supply of vitamins and essential amino acids. Meat gives this in one sitting.

Now I agree that americans, myself included, eat too much meat. But balance is the order of the day, not the swing from one unhealthy extreme to another.

BTW, I’m munching frosted miniwheats as I write. Aren’t you proud?👍
 
I totally agree with you that we should pay attention to what we eat. Some things are, indeed, a little disconcerting. For myself, I am particularly suspicious of anything that comes from a foreign country outside the EU, and even then, some of the EU processed dairy products seem a trifle grungy to me. Unfortunately, we have a LOT of stuff, particularly produce, that comes from the Third World, and we have absolutely no idea at all under what conditions the stuff was grown, handled, treated, transported or processed.
:eek:
These are very different times. The big corps don’t care about our health, or care about animal suffering, or care about negative environmental impacts. They only care that we buy their products. We have to become knowledgable–because what we don’t know ***can ***hurt us.

And back to the animal suffering–I know that you are a conscientious cattleman and are not associated with the CAFOs. The majority of urbanites have no idea about grass-fed beef, corn-fed beef, how veal calves are treated, what a CAFO is etc. The majority of urbanites don’t know what constitutes organic produce or organic meat. The majority of urbanites don’t read the ingredient labels on the products that they buy, and are not inclined to learn what those long chemical sounding names in the products are. It would be nice if we could rely on, and trust the big companies to give us healthy products produced ethically, and with minimum suffering to animals, but we can’t. So I am all for LEARNING about how our food is produced and all the pertinent issues and concerns both for our health and for the treatment of animals/effects on the environment/effects on resources, etc.

I still would like to hear from someone who OPPOSES beekeeping. For now I am keeping an open mind about it. And as severus68 said, it sounds like bees are treated better than dairy cows.
 
I don’t think we have any of the PETA crew here, I myself prefer Catholic Concern for Animals as an organization to look to for guidance, etc. You sound kind of angry and speak of bias and predilection. You know of the authors that I cite and are familiar with their rationale. Care to be more specific? The general topic here is dogs, cows, bees–any difference in what we subject them to, does their suffering matter? Are they all equal in what we can or can not do to them? Do you have some specific points, observations, etc. that can help advance our discussion? As an animal researcher do you have some information that we may have not considered?
Yes, I am kind of angry at how much research has been harmed by placing animals on an equivalent plane with humans. And no, I no longer do animal research. That was for my master’s degree. My Ph.D. was microbiology. (No one cares how many E. coli get autoclaved)

I believe I’ve added quite a few specific thoughts and observations. You reject them, so I guess you don’t believe they advance the discussion.
 
Bees are like little robots; totally predictable if you learn their ways. Very engaging little creatures. Pretty too, in my eyes anyway.
You have a wonderful appreciation of nature!!! And a poetic way of describing it!!!
 
There are over 6 billion people on the planet. If they were all gathered together, they could all be comfortably contained in the State of Texas with 1200 sqaure feet per person! I didn’t believe it when I read it. I did the math myself. It checks. Now think of that. All of the people of the world could fit into the State of Texas with 1200 square feet per person. That means that the bulk of the land mass on earth is uninhabited. There’s plenty of room to grow crops.
Maybe we should try that–sending all Earth inhabitants to Texas!! We could greatly reduce our Worldwide Bigfoot Carbon footprint!!!

Not all land is suitable for growing crops. Are you familiar with the issues of drought and crop failure in Australia, for example??? Growing crops on arrid land, having to irrigate, lack of rainfall…
The farmers in the US have resorted repeatedly to burning crops because the excess would drive down prices. Relief agencies were limited by how much it cost to transport the crops and by local war lords who seize grain shipments as a tool of war to starve their rival tribes (See Somalia). Our famines are man made. The predictions of Malthus et al. never came to be.
In the US, almost 60% of crops are grown to feed animals, not people. (There’s a National Geographic special issue with stats this month–I don’t have it in front of me right now…)
If you want to focus on a real horror story relative to the food supply, it is the issue of transgenic plants and the increasing use of a relatively few genetically enhanced hybrid strains. One good blight affecting one of those few strains and it’s mass starvation.
And this is another one of those things that average urbanites are unaware of. Most people are unaware of seed, seed technology, GMOs, etc., and the pros and cons of all agricultural practices.
The solutions to world hunger are political and military, breaking the stranglehold of local warlords on UN relief supplies. **The requirements of vegan diets are too technical **for most people in order to assure an adequate supply of vitamins and essential amino acids. Meat gives this in one sitting.
The bolded phrase is completely untrue.
**Now I agree that americans, myself included, eat too much meat. **But balance is the order of the day, not the swing from one unhealthy extreme to another.
Like oodles of it!!!
BTW, I’m munching frosted miniwheats as I write. Aren’t you proud?👍
Next time get the ***unfrosted ***flavor!!!
 
Well, I don’t want any method of raising animals and slaughtering them for food. I don’t believe we need to eat meat today and I am vegetarian.

That is one of the problems today, compromises, or trade offs as you call them.

If more grain and other crops were grown, there would be less people starving. You are a scientist, you should know that Many, many Indians are Hindus and vegetarian. I do not think they would be please with you sending them beef.

By the way, I do think cows are cute.
Forgive my interjection (or don’t, I don’t really care) but if I had a carrot and a rib eye steak before me and was only allowed to partake of one… When I was finished eating, I’d still be able to feed a rabbit. 🙂
 
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I wonder if God, who created the cow, thinks she’s beautiful or ugly, or if she would look better as a purse or a hamburger?
Don’t be silly. “she” would actually be MANY purses and/or hamburgers. Don’t de-value her by suggesting that only one purse or one hamburger could be gained from an entire cow.
 
You have a wonderful appreciation of nature!!! And a poetic way of describing it!!!
Unduly kind of you, but thanks.

I do have an appreciation for nature, and for animals. I could go on about them all day. But I was raised in the country, and don’t have any illusions about any of it either. Compared to what nature has to offer, virtually any human husbandry is extremely benign. I know there are people who treat animals cruelly. But very few farmers and ranchers do, and the ones who do don’t last, because it’s economically stupid, and can be dangerous. Besides, it’s pointless and serves no human purpose. Most farmers and ranchers are actually kind to their animals, but if they have any sense at all, it’s a “kindness” that fits within the nature of the animal. It’s not the “human-to-human” kind. Kindness to animals is an altogether different thing.

Life isn’t so terribly kind to people either. We get sick. We have heartbreaks. We are treated cruelly. We get injured. We die.

But animals just are not people. What causes them pain is not what causes me pain, and vice-versa. One could say of them that they have emotions of a sort, but they’re not human emotions by miles and miles. What they have in the way of “desire” is not even remotely what we have. What they have as “fears” are nothing like human fears. What they have in the way of what we might superficially think of as “kindness” or “cruelty” don’t resemble our kindnesses or cruelties at all. (Animals are breathtakingly “cruel” if you think of them in human terms, but you can’t.) They’re not us, and we’re not them. Maybe you have to live among them a good while to know all that.

I have sometimes thought about “place” in creation, and it’s a marvelous thing to think about. The ancient Greeks, for example, made a very big deal out of "place’. “Hubris” was not so much “pride” as we think of it, but more a matter of attempting to exceed your “place”; your proper role. If you did, then the Erinys would ensure your downfall. Pagans were not without insight. Virtually the whole of the “Iliad” is about that. And, when I think about God, and about my Catholicism, I often think about it in terms of “place”. What’s my role? Am I fulfilling it or departing from it? I realize St. Therese of Lisieux was about more than that, but she had a remarkable sense of, respect for, and acceptance of “place”. And that sense was her comfort and much of her spirituality. She did not fear sin. She did not fear the devil. She did not fear her Creator. She did not fear damnation. And it was because she did not aspire to be something she was not, but accepted her ordained “place”. She did aspire to sainthood, and said so. But it was within the context of her own “place”.

We go through this world worrying all the time about how we fit into all of what we see around us, and don’t see. We worry about what we do or should do or think we should do, and in the process often lose sight of our “place” and the “places” of other things. Should I eat this apple and destoy its beauty? Should I pick this rose, knowing I will make it wither if I do? Should I resist this person or not do it? Should I eat this animal? Should I shoot this copperhead just to get rid of him; perhaps as a threat to a child someday or perhaps leave him as a threat only to rats?

Obviously, St. Francis of Assisi had a “place” that was different from that of, say, St. Benedict. Benedictines were animal husbandmen from the very first, and still are. A Benedictine will eat a steak with gusto. So, is their “place” the same as that of Carmelites, who never eat meat? We have to think not, and we have to think that somehow there is grace in both things. But they’re different things; different “places”.
 
Don’t be silly. “she” would actually be MANY purses and/or hamburgers. Don’t de-value her by suggesting that only one purse or one hamburger could be gained from an entire cow.
Respectfully… is that really what you thought Marfran meant?
 
I just started reading the book ***Why Animal Suffering Matters: Philosophy, Theology, and Practical Ethics ***by Andrew Linzey. bit.ly/2lqFZg So going back to the OP, should we consider differences in which animals we choose to make suffer for our food??? Is there a hierarchy of species??? What about insects, like bees??? We don’t ***need ***their honey–should we take it???
I found this web site that has LOADS of info on why honey is not vegan - friendsofanimals.org/actionline/fall-2004/is-honey-vegan.html
Honey is usually taken from the hive in the spring and fall. In the fall, beekeepers replace honey with white sugar syrup — a poor substitute for the bees’ natural food supply — or kill off the colonies to avoid maintaining the hives throughout the winter.
In a natural environment the queen honeybee would control the hive by choosing the hive’s location and by the number of eggs she produces. In a commercial bee operation the beekeeper manipulates the queen to keep honey production high. Queen honeybees are artificially inseminated after sperm is collected from a male bee by crushing his head and thorax, which forces the release of sperm by turning the bee inside out.[4] Sperm from several males is collected in a syringe that will later be used to inseminate the queen.
Queen honeybees have a natural lifespan of five years but most will be killed every one to two years.[5] Many beekeepers will clip the queens wings or put her in a cage called a “queen excluder” to keep her from flying away and taking the hive with her.
 
Well, tomorrow night it will be meatless. I am cooking a huge pot of pinto beans, onions, garlic, jalepenos, along with some cornbread. All animals are safe.
Yummy — do you have a good cornbread recipe to share? Here is my favorite from: theppk.com/recipes/dbrecipes/index.php?RecipeID=39
Vegan Cornbread
Submitted by Isa
prep time: 10-15 minutes | cooking time: 30-35 minutes | makes 12-16 squares
This is a delicious basic vegan cornbread. It is moist and crunchy and corntastic. It is not a sweet bread, but a bread to be savored with soup or smothered with guacamole. For best results, use old-fashioned cornmeal.
Equipment:
Ingredients
2 cups cornmeal
1 cup unbleached all-purpose flour
2 teaspoon baking powder
1/3 cup canola oil
2 tablespoons maple syrup
2 cups soymilk
2 teaspoons apple cider vinegar
1/2 teaspoon salt
Directions
Preheat oven to 350, line a 9x13 baking pan with parchment paper or spray the bottom lightly with non-stick cooking spray.
In a medium bowl, wisk together the soymilk and the vinegar and set aside.
In a large bowl, sift together the dry ingredients (cornmeal, flour, baking powder and salt).
Add the oil and maple syrup to the soymilk mixture. Wisk with a wire wisk or a fork until it is foamy and bubbly, about 2 minutes.
Pour the wet ingredient into the dry and mix together using a large wooden spoon or a firm spatula. Pour batter into the prepared baking pan and bake 30-35 minutes, until a toothpick inserted into the center comes out clean. Slice into squares and serve warm or store in an airtight container.
We take about half cup earth balance margarine and 1/4 cup agave nectar and mix for a ‘honey-like’ butter spread —
 
Well, I’ve never heard of a cow as being called “man’s best friend.”

They’re also notoriously uncooperative at playing fetch.

And they’re ugly.

We’re doing them a favor by eating them.

As for the bees, if we kill them, no more honey.

Though, John the Baptist ate locusts and wild honey. No mention of burgers.

:takeoff::takeoff::takeoff:
OH… I think cows are beautiful! http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_woltvyrjN...Sanctuary-cow-kisses-janeincatland-blog-F.jpg

And I don’t think we are doing them any favor by eating them…
Have you tried Agave Nectar - So much better than honey - and then we can leave the bee barf for the bees!
 
Actually, God gave commands about how to slaughter animals, so as not to cause pain. He also gave us animals for food, commanding which we could eat and not eat. A philosophy, theology or ethics that ignores this reality and second-guesses God’s wise design is automatically suspect. Jesus ate meat. What does that make Him?
Sadly animals raised for food today in the west are for the most part raised in CAFO, or factory farms - they are not slaughtered per Jewish law unless one is restricting their diet to Kosher meats - and even there there have been reports on how this system is now abused as well.

It is greed that has abused God’s wise design - so, since we can easily get by without meat, dairy or eggs in the west, given the availability of other sources of plant based protein - we can just eliminate the need to be part of that process.
 
Gerard Nadal;5786123]In the interests of full disclosure, I am a Ph.D. Molecular Biologist who did animal research on spinal cord physiology during his master degree. I am also a committed omnivore.
I find it interesting that you focus on the way things were before the fall, and ignore God’s instructions for the rest of the Bible after the first few chapters of Genesis. St. Paul says no problem in eating MEATS offered to idols, as Jesus’ blood has washed all things clean, just not to do it if the nature of the sacrifice would scandalize weaker members of the community.
Jesus ate fish, ate the Passover supper (lamb), and who knows how much more.
I have no problem with people being vegan. I do have a problem with the missionary activity of the vegan and animal rights community that flies in the face of scriptural instruction. Your concerns are nice, even laudable, but in no way can you say that you have evolved beyond the revelation that God gave in the fullness of His time. If vegetarianism were to become such a moral imperative, God would have built that in to the corpus of revelation.
As to your concerns about how animals are raised and slaughtered, the scriptures address that. However, in my dealings with PETA and crew, those scriptural injunctions are intolerable as well.
Not being part of the PETA crew - but being a committed vegan - what has resonated for me with my Catholic faith is a result of what I learned about how meat, dairy, eggs, fish are raised and slaughtered today for food - and the impact on the environment, the communities, the workers, resources… all this lead me - in my 50’s to make a complete change from being an omnivore to being a vegan -
Eat only vegetables. Just don’t attempt to craft a moral theological imperative for the rest of us. Science and scripture are not on your side.
What I do try to share is why this choice makes sense to me in light of my Catholic faith - living my faith today.
 
Me too. Especially as prime rib.
Seriously, I was only kidding about them being ugly, but not about being tasty

God Bless
Funny thing I’ve found as I moved to a vegan diet - meat does not appeal to me anymore - sure there was a transition period when I did miss it - thought it smelled good cooking - or saw commercials on tv and thought I missed it — but 5 years on it not only does not appeal to me, when I see a commercial on tv where they are cutting into a big bloody steak it actually seems so gross… 😦
 
Next time get the ***unfrosted ***flavor!!!
You’ve GOT to be kidding!? You really ARE trying to make me indistinguisable from the cows! These things are mini bales of hay!!! :yup:

Have you ANY idea how difficult it is to eat grass to begin with? The frosting is the only thing keeping me in the game here! Have mercy, I beg you:thumbsup:
 
Funny thing I’ve found as I moved to a vegan diet - meat does not appeal to me anymore - sure there was a transition period when I did miss it - thought it smelled good cooking - or saw commercials on tv and thought I missed it — but 5 years on it not only does not appeal to me, when I see a commercial on tv where they are cutting into a big bloody steak it actually seems so gross… 😦
I know what you mean. You need first rate garlic bread for the blood! Seriously, at 49, I’m starting to notice that I can’t handle loads of red meat anymore. :bighanky::bighanky::bighanky:

As for the impact on the environment, that’s a can of worms relative to bad science and politics. But I do believe that we need to be ever vigilant in husbanding our resources.

God Bless
 
I know what you mean. You need first rate garlic bread for the blood! Seriously, at 49, I’m starting to notice that I can’t handle loads of red meat anymore.

As for the impact on the environment, that’s a can of worms relative to bad science and politics. But I do believe that we need to be ever vigilant in husbanding our resources.

God Bless
You are ‘kind of a’ funny guy aren’t you… 😉

Ok… it will certainly be good for you if you’ve cut down on red meat (not to mention how good it will be for the beautiful cows and pigs!) - I’ll be happy to share some great satisfying vegan recipes! - Funny we had bar-b-que vegan ‘loaf’ and garlic bread tonight!

You may suspect that the impact on the environment is bad science and politics… but if you will just consider the issues of water pollution alone… (from just a quick search…)
  1. berrystreetbeacon.wordpress.com/2009/01/17/cafos-damage-water-quality-in-the-st-marys-river/
  2. nocafos.org/
  3. appvoices.org/index.php?/site/voice_stories/farmers_worry_about_cafo_dairy_pollution_land_values_are_concerns/issue/25
  4. blackwarriorriver.org/cafos.html
 
Respectfully… is that really what you thought Marfran meant?
Just as respectfully… no, it’s my silly response to a silly topic. I have no problem with people who don’t want to eat meat (there’s that much more for me), but with all the real problems that face the world today, I don’t really see this as being in the upper part of the list. So, I too may taking a breather and being silly. 😉
 
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