Holy Strippers?

[Lokabrenna]

I’ve had this discussion many times with people and yes…I’m going there but not to disturb you but because I’m quite a curious cat. Could strippers be holy? Many times people would tell me ‘striping is immoral’ or ‘its the work of the devil’ and so forth. So yes my fellow people of earth, is a stripper considered immoral? And if so how?

I don’t usually post on this board because as a non-Christian, I’m not really up to speed on Catholic morality, but this is an interesting question.

Now, as a (neo) Pagan of Norse persuasion, I don’t have the same view of “immorality” (and no concept of sin) as the Catholics on this board do. In my view, stripping is not inherently immoral, but I think whether it is sacred or not depends on the intent of both the stripper and the audience. If strippers are being forced to strip, I’d assume they aren’t thinking of it in a sacred way (hierarchy of needs and all that), and neither is the audience (in fact, I would say the audiences who watch strippers usually don’t think of it in terms of a sacred rite), that’s okay too, because sometimes stripping (and sex work, and sex in general) is just stripping.

So in my view, the stripper isn’t doing anything wrong by stripping (especially if they’re being forced to do it) and such things can be holy, but other times they just are.

 

[Gaber]

I don’t usually post on this board because as a non-Christian, I’m not really up to speed on Catholic morality, but this is an interesting question.

Now, as a (neo) Pagan of Norse persuasion, I don’t have the same view of “immorality” (and no concept of sin) as the Catholics on this board do. In my view, stripping is not inherently immoral, but I think whether it is sacred or not depends on the intent of both the stripper and the audience. If strippers are being forced to strip, I’d assume they aren’t thinking of it in a sacred way (hierarchy of needs and all that), and neither is the audience (in fact, I would say the audiences who watch strippers usually don’t think of it in terms of a sacred rite), that’s okay too, because sometimes stripping (and sex work, and sex in general) is just stripping.

So in my view, the stripper isn’t doing anything wrong by stripping (especially if they’re being forced to do it) and such things can be holy, but other times they just are.

What a radical idea!!! You mean some things “just are???!!!”

 

[Lokabrenna]

What a radical idea!!! You mean some things “just are???!!!”

Some things just are, friend, some things just are.

 

[underacloud]

Did I miss somewhere where I said that we should crush prostitutes and strippers beneath our bootheel? All I have said is this:

1.) They engage in sinful behavior.
2.) Their culpability for that sin may diminish based on their circumstances, but the sin is still a sin.
3.) We are called to love them as fellow humans (as Jesus did) and to rebuke their sin (as Jesus did) with love and compassion. This isn’t calling them whores and stoning them in the street, this is trying to help get them out of their situation.

Yes, there are those who profess Christianity who are also horribly uncharitable people. I’ll thank anyone not to lump me in with them based on their own assumptions. You can be intolerant of sin without being hateful to a person.

I have no argument with what you have said. In fact, I think what you’ve said here is dead right. Their behavious is wrong, and we are called to love them, help them, and rebuke their sins.

I just think in this case that you’ve come in on an argument that started with the comment from another poster that: “I have very little sympathy for so-called hard luck prostitute/strippers.” It just seemed that you were defending this statement. I think that you weren’t, and hope that’s the case, but you got “lumped in” as you seemed to come to defense of that poster in general.

 

[PRmerger]

I used to be a taxi driver in a city that had strip joints. I got a lot of business from people in the sex industry and the gay community. That was because I treated everyone who got in my vehicle with dignity and respect. My job was only to get them from A to B.

Genuine curiosity, Gaber: did your passengers choose your taxi because you had a reputation for treating them with dignity and respect? Are you saying that they passed up other taxis to get to their destination, choosing yours instead?

The reason I am asking is because it appears from your post that you are maintaining that you received business because of your attitude of kindness. However, it’s been my experience that most people just hail a taxi–any taxi–and get in because they want to get to their destination.

 

[PRmerger]

but strippers are created in the image of God just like everyone else.

Yes, darned if even religious fanatics and bigots aren’t as well. You are right. Ain’t one of us who isn’t. And that comes, as far as I’m concerned, before any religious tenet or dogma. Thanks for your contribution.

You do realize, Gaber, that being “created in the image of God” is a religious tenet, yes?

It is only because Judeo-Christianity has proclaimed this religious tenet that you know this. No other religion had the temerity to proclaim such a blasphemous concept until God chose to reveal this to the Jews.

So when you dismiss religious dogma in favor of a, well, religious dogma, that seems inconsistent to me.

 

[Debora123]

I’ve had this discussion many times with people and yes…I’m going there but not to disturb you but because I’m quite a curious cat. Could strippers be holy? Many times people would tell me ‘striping is immoral’ or ‘its the work of the devil’ and so forth. So yes my fellow people of earth, is a stripper considered immoral? And if so how?

A person who is a stripper can still be a good person, but the act of stripping is immoral. We are not to judge the people themselves, we are only to judge acts.

 

[Debora123]

Someone who repeatedly has people tell them something without believing it is more than just curious. Tell me, what prompted the question really? Are you thinking of becoming a stripper yourself? Have you had a bunch of people telling you the opposite - that stripping IS holy? Or what?

Do you feel the need to question other things people tell you in this way? Are you the sort of person who wonders whether 2+2 really does equal 4 every single time? Or whether the sun really does rise in the east and set in the west every single day?

I don’t find your question disturbing, I do find it nonsensical.

Whoa, a little hostile are we?

 

[Gaber]

You do realize, Gaber, that being “created in the image of God” is a religious tenet, yes?

It is only because Judeo-Christianity has proclaimed this religious tenet that you know this. No other religion had the temerity to proclaim such a blasphemous concept until God chose to reveal this to the Jews.

So when you dismiss religious dogma in favor of a, well, religious dogma, that seems inconsistent to me.

Methinks you have a skewed picture of what I say and why. But hey, we are people, and that once in a while happens.

“Created in the image of God” is one way of saying it, and I use it here because I am a cradle Catholic and so is most of our audience here, so it is useful and courteous to employ common terminology. But that same thing, meaning the same thing, has been said in other ways. And before Jesus. And before much of the O or N T. And did I say it wasn’t a religious concept? It’s been made into that by religionists who have book learning of it. So I have to ask if you think that an assertion, even in the form of a “revelation,” is the equivalent of the experience it points to? That being answered, we might get more interested in the question of what religion actually is.

 

[Debora123]

Loving a sinner is not tolerating their sin, but it is treating them with dignity and respect. That’s love. And no matter who the sinner is, no matter how bad the sin, we are to treat them with dignity and respect. That’s what loving the sinner is.

But people don’t want to treat porn addicts, strippers and prostitutes, thiefs, adulterers and homosexuals with dignity and respect. They want to hate the sin and rebuke the sinner for it, but wind up throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Many self proclaimed Christians beat people over the head with intolerance of sin but wouldn’t knock on the person’s door and ask them to go for a walk around the block and pray with them, or invite them to Bible study in their home, or offer to give them a ride to the doctor.

Jesus invited them to dinner.

-Tim-

Tim, this is beautiful! :clapping:

 

[Gaber]

Loving a sinner is not tolerating their sin, but it is treating them with dignity and respect. That’s love. And no matter who the sinner is, no matter how bad the sin, we are to treat them with dignity and respect. That’s what loving the sinner is.

But people don’t want to treat porn addicts, strippers and prostitutes, thiefs, adulterers and homosexuals with dignity and respect. They want to hate the sin and rebuke the sinner for it, but wind up throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Many self proclaimed Christians beat people over the head with intolerance of sin but wouldn’t knock on the person’s door and ask them to go for a walk around the block and pray with them, or invite them to Bible study in their home, or offer to give them a ride to the doctor.

Jesus invited them to dinner.

-Tim-

Well said, Sir! Thank you.

 

[PRmerger]

“Created in the image of God” is one way of saying it, and I use it here because I am a cradle Catholic and so is most of our audience here, so it is useful and courteous to employ common terminology. But that same thing, meaning the same thing, has been said in other ways. And before Jesus. And before much of the O or N T.

Do you have some sources for this, please?

(Note, of course, that I did not claim that only Jesus proclaimed this religious dogma. This was revealed, as I said, to the Jews, before Christ.)

And did I say it wasn’t a religious concept? It’s been made into that by religionists who have book learning of it. So I have to ask if you think that an assertion, even in the form of a “revelation,” is the equivalent of the experience it points to?

Good. Then you understand that it was inconsistent to say, “I believe in a religious tenet and that comes before any religious tenet.”

That being answered, we might get more interested in the question of what religion actually is.

I do love this question.

Religion, which comes from the Latin word religare for binding, is about binding ourselves to God. It is from whence we get the term “relationship”. Thus, religion is about a relationship with God.

 

[Gaber]

Some things just are, friend, some things just are.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I used to be a taxi driver in a city that had strip joints. I got a lot of business from people in the sex industry and the gay community. . .

I’d met just as many (if not more) in the entertainment industry, and treated many of them with much more respect than they treated me. However, none of that in my limited opinion somehow automatically confers any type of expertise on a person, which could make us some type of “authority” on these matters.

. . . My job was only to get them from A to B.

…Which is actually not totally different from the stripper’s job (whether they are actually coerced into doing it or not), if you think about it :

Your clients were on their way to “B” - your job was to get them much closer. The “B” you drop them at is simply a point proximate to their ultimate “B”.

Men who go to watch strippers, are most of the time, also on their way to immoral “B” . The decision has usually already been made (whether gradually or definitively - whatever) to depart from moral “A” , or perhaps even moral neutrality (somewhere between “A- and B+” ) ; and the function of the stripper is to assist them in arriving at immoral “B”.

The question wasn’t worded all that clearly- :

I’ve had this discussion many times with people and yes…I’m going there but not to disturb you but because I’m quite a curious cat. Could strippers be holy? Many times people would tell me ‘striping is immoral’ or ‘its the work of the devil’ and so forth. So yes my fellow people of earth, is a stripper considered immoral? And if so how?

. . . Subsequently some confusion could have easily arisen between “stripping is immoral” and “is a stripper considered immoral”.

Deborah123’s post and several other previous to have have differentiated between the two , but it might be a better idea to cut that member some slack, because the OP’s question is somewhat ambiguously worded.

Furthermore, if we follow the pathology backwards, men going to see strippers are almost inevitably linked to these same men or their friends/acquaintances having previously gone to see strippers - a lose/lose situation for both the men and the strippers in terms of morality because it only compounds the problem.

Well said, Sir! Thank you.

As eloquently worded as Tim’s post was (), perhaps it would be preferable if you were to refrain from posting the words “Well said” anywhere on these forums Gaber. . . . . . that is, if you’re going to continue posting comments like this -

. . . at least you will have some real experience of what you are tossing off about.

. . . or maybe you could at least postpone the "Well said" commentary , until everyone reading this thread has a chance to actually discover what “tossing off” means.

( Go ahead guys - use your seach engines and enter “tossing off” . . . and see what you get ) .

I should think your claims of showing respect for certain types of people would gain a lot more credibility once you are able to understand how to “respect” proper CAF decorum.

 

[Debora123]

…Which is actually not totally different from the stripper’s job (whether they are actually coerced into doing it or not), if you think about it :

Your clients were on their way to “B” - your job was to get them much closer. The “B” you drop them at is simply a point proximate to their ultimate “B”.

Men who go to watch strippers, are most of the time, also on their way to immoral “B” . The decision has usually already been made (whether gradually or definitively - whatever) to depart from moral “A” , or perhaps even moral neutrality (somewhere between “A- and B+” ) ; and the function of the stripper is to assist them in arriving at immoral “B”.

The question wasn’t worded all that clearly- :

I object to this 100%. Comparing a fellow poster’s job here as a taxi driver to a job as a stripper is completely uncalled for. Stripping as a job is objectively sinful, taxi driving is not. :nope:

 

[NeedImprovement]

I object to this 100%. Comparing a fellow poster’s job here as a taxi driver to a job as a stripper is completely uncalled for. Stripping as a job is objectively sinful, taxi driving is not. :nope:

Well, I was focusing on the getting someone from A to B part and making the analogy of physically transporting a person from “A” to “B” with morally transporting someone from “A” to “B” (the moral “B” being located in the vicinity described by our Blessed Lord in Matthew 5: 28 [or worse] ).

The analogy was actually how a stripper can be an occasion of sin to someone else already weakened by their own (lack of ) resolve . The focus was on going from A to B and how even a stripper who has been coerced into stripping, by the very act of (um)“performing” , can be a vehicle helping to complete the sin - the seed of which , has usually been conceived previously in the man’s heart. The stripper helps bring that sin to fruition. I’m sorry , but I don’t see where we disagree.

Even if you were to disagree 200% you appear to have missed the point. There was absolutely no inference that driving a cab was immoral ; try looking at it through the other end of the pipe. The inference was that the **stripper can be a vehicle **to bring the man’s sin to fruition. I was concentrating on the man’s sin first because this is the origin and because it hasn’t been overly mentioned here : If there is no one there to watch a stripper, then it is much more difficult to construe the act of stripping as something objectively sinful.

The only thing I have to apologize for is spelling your username wrong in that post - nothing else ( So, sorry for that part Debora123 )

If the aforementioned was the only part you objected to, then for now I’m free to assume you’ve already done the math with your search engine on this other part -

. . . at least you will have some real experience of what you are tossing off about.

. . . and have discovered what someone "tossing off about " something means -

 

[Not_Sure_1]

A person who is a stripper can still be a good person, but the act of stripping is immoral. We are not to judge the people themselves, we are only to judge acts.

“Why call me therefore good, there is no good but He who is in heaven above”

 

[Not_Sure_1]

Well, I was focusing on the getting someone from A to B part and making the analogy of physically transporting a person from “A” to “B” with morally transporting someone from A to B.

The analogy was actually how a stripper can be an occasion of sin to someone else already weakened by their own (lack of ) resolve . The focus was on A to B and how even a stripper who has been coerced into stripping, by the very act of (um)“performing” , can be a vehicle helping to complete the sin - the seed of which , has usually been conceived previously in the man’s heart. The stripper helps bring that sin to fruition. I’m sorry , but I don’t see where we disagree.

Feel free to disagree 200% if you wish because you appear to have missed the point. There was absolutely no inference that driving a cab was immoral ; you’re looking through the wrong end of the pipe. The inference was that the stripper can be a vehicle to bring the man’s sin to fruition. I was concentrating on the man’s sin first because this is the origin and because it hasn’t been overly mentioned here : If there is no one there to watch a stripper, then it is much more difficult to construe the act of stripping as something objectively sinful.

The only thing I have to apologize for is spelling your username wrong in that post - nothing else ( So, sorry for that part Debora123 )

If the aforementioned was the only part you objected to, then for now I’m free to assume you’ve already done the math with your search engine on this other part -

. . . and have discovered what someone "tossing off about " something means -

A stripper is not an occasion of sin, once you have walked into a strip club, you have committed a sin.

 

[NeedImprovement]

A stripper is not an occasion of sin, once you have walked into a strip club, you have committed a sin.

Could you please refer to my answer two posts ago again, Not Sure ? Your quote of my post appears to be missing the *Matthew 5:28 * part.

You have already committed a sin in your heart the moment you have decided to go to the strip club - not when you get there and go in. This is what our Blessed Lord was trying to tell us. And the ethical ramifications can become complicated. For instance, if there was no stripper (um) “performing” - the man could not be “tempted” to go and watch. Then, does the temptation stem from a previous visit he made , or is it more the fabrication of a personal fantasy ?

From Modern Catholic Dictionary, Fr. John Hardon, S.J. :

OCCASION OF SIN
Any person, place, or thing that of its nature or because of human frailty can lead one to do wrong, thereby committing sin. If the danger is certain and probable, the occasion is proximate; if the danger is slight, the occasion becomes remote. It is voluntary if it can easily be avoided. There is no obligation to avoid a remote occasion unless there is probable danger of its becoming proximate. There is a positive obligation to avoid a voluntary proximate occasion of sin even though the occasion of evildoing is due only to human weakness.

 

[Debora123]

A stripper is not an occasion of sin, once you have walked into a strip club, you have committed a sin.

Not necessarily. If you work as some sort of emergency personnel (EMT, Police Officer, fire fighter, etc etc) and you walk into a strip club due to an emergency, you’re not committing a sin.

Also, out of charity, we should stop referring to/viewing strippers as “occasions of sin.” Doing so is just as dehumanizing and objectifying as the profession itself. Strippers are, first and foremost, our sisters/brothers in Christ and children of God. Their ACTIONS are occasions of sins.