Holy Strippers?

[Gaber]

Im not surprised…Its like me defining myself as a non-french speaker, then announcing I cant speak french, as though that is some kind of revelation!

on the other hand, I’m surprised you would make such a simplistic analogy. Perhaps AtheistGirl was polite to ignore it. But despite not being an atheist, I have to say that this doesn’t work. At all.

French can be pointed to, heard being spoken, seen as written, and while you might make analogies about that and the “Word of God,” you do not see a parallel between telepathic conversations with a personal “god” (in quotes and l.c. because that of most people is an imagined anthropomorphization, as distinct from Reality, imo) and the results one can get from speaking French, even to a non speaker.

 

[Gaber]

Only in the same way that your 4 year old daughter wouldn’t find any explanation you offer as to why you are holding her down to receive 4 immunizations.

You could explain it to her, but she would only respond, (if she’s bratty): “But you’re a Big Meanie! You hate me!”

So the alleged Children of God, Catholic and otherwise, through all time without exception, are all bratty 4yos?

 

[TimothyH]

People pray to be safe, but they’re not. People pray to be kept from harm, but they’re not. Yet this personal loving God also answers prayers. In His own way of course and beyond our understanding

Sarah x

I prayed for a ZR1 Corvette. God said no. He answered my prayer.

-Tim-

 

[atheistgirl]

I prayed for a ZR1 Corvette. God said no. He answered my prayer.

-Tim-

What did He sound like when He said no?

Do you just assume because you haven’t got one yet, that that’s God will. His answer to your prayer is no.

What if you work really hard, save, and buy one in a year?

Does the fact that you can now afford one mean, and you buy one, mean God has changed His mind, after saying no initially?

I know you post is meant to be funny (and it is ) but it did make me wonder.

I bet that’s exactly how believers react. One minute it itsn’t God’s will, so the prayer is answered just not in the wayt the penitant was expecting, then when circumstances change and they achieve (through their own merits) what their goal is, suddently it’s all praise and thanks to God who allowed it to happen

Sarah x

 

[Gaber]

I guess.

But it seems very inadequate somehow.

I could never move from a position of knowing and understanding why things happen, based on perfectly reasonable predictors such as the environement, homelife, social make up and political, educational, financial, and employment elements (to name a few), to a position of ‘‘God only knows’’ and all will be revealed when we die

Sarah x

Weird. I’m not an atheist, Sarah, but I find myself agreeing with you far more than the vast majority of religionists of any stripe that I’ve encountered. In fact, one of the One’s I have greatest respect for said quite plainly that your sort of stand is not only perfectly acceptable in the scheme of our paradigm, but serves perhaps better than religious postures in general.

So as I see it, while there is acknowledged usefulness in religions, the simplicity of what you are and do serves wondrously well on many or all levels, and is whole and complete as far as I’m concerned as you stand. And you know, if I sorted for “goodness” or “practicability” on the grounds of religious affiliation, I would consider myself a fool. Belief in God is just that. Action brings the definition of goodness, not tenets, as far as I’m concerned.

I’m grateful for your presence here.

 

[Gaber]

Merger,

Spend some time reading all of Gaber’s past posts. Gaber is in favor of homosexuality and same sex marriage. When asked what “Ronin” meant as Catholic…the question was avoided. Gaber has “Catholic” in the designation and your frustration is born out of the fact that Gaber’s point of view is skewed and not in line with the magesterium. Gaber, in my opinion has no point of view that is consistent with the OHCAC.

The question wasn’t avoided. I didn’t explain to you, and was going to say as much in another thread that was closed. I would, and did, give a full explanation to some who asked sincerely, but your general attitude put me off, as it did others. in that particular instance.

As for the OHCAC (jeez, what an acro…) I proselytized heavily for it for many years. I don’t disagree with it. I just see a way through what it says to its significant core that works for me. And what comes first? Integrity to oneself by one;s best light, or without what I would consider, as exemplified by many Catholics and non, a sincere and deep inquiry into “objective” and subjective space to discover answers that are too much of a conundrum to let pass as articles of mere acceptance, on my part, at least.

So as far as making off topic comments about me, thanks at least for making them in the open. As it’s been said, ideas can grow. Beliefs too easily lend one’s feelings to ademantine correctness and the results thereof.

 

[atheistgirl]

I’m grateful for your presence here.

And I very much enjoy your posts and your take on things.

:hug3:

Sarah x

 

[Blacksword]

I agree that earthquakes, tsunamis and so on are not evil in and of themselves. They are what they are, just physical events, and we understand why they happen. It’s all part of living on a watery rock floating about in space.

Again I have no problem understanding that we do bad things from time to time. I understand it in various contexts, none of which includes ‘‘permission’’ from a Deity to be like so.

If I did believe in a God, I would have issues understanding why He feels the free will of a psychopathic rapist and murderer to do as he wants, is more important than the suffering he will inflict on his 8 year old victim, and their family, for generations to come.

More so when I remember this is a personal, loving God, who apparently has every hair on our head counted. Makes no sense to me.

People pray to be safe, but they’re not. People pray to be kept from harm, but they’re not. Yet this personal loving God also answers prayers. In His own way of course and beyond our understanding

Sarah x

Sure, I get it. I am glad, btw, that you accept that so called “natural evil” is not a material issue, which saves time in not having to go on that tangent…so it comes down to only human evil for you. Your question seems to be “How could God really value free-will so much that He would allow things such as…?” per the scenario you describe. The answer, though sometimes hard to accept in practice but obvious in detached reflection is: because God is not a cosmic genie, He does not “poof” things about, and thus will not jump here and there into the world to stop people doing awful things to one another. That sort of God would be more akin to the creationist deity who poofs things into existence and generally acts as a cosmic tinkerer in the creation, not the “That than which nothing greater can be imagined” God who we posit as the First Cause and Unmoved Mover.

So, does God value freedom so much as to allow such evil? Yes, since if an evil man is not ultimately free to attempt the murder of a child or whatever other heinous act, he isn’t really “free” in his conscious will at all. It is up to us humans to act on God’s will to try to prevent such evil intent from being carried out, not up to God to hamstring his own creation.

 

[atheistgirl]

Your question seems to be “How could God really value free-will so much that He would allow things such as…?” per the scenario you describe.

It’s more why doesn’t God answer prayers in the face of such direct evil. Like the case of little Madeline McCann. Missing now for five years, masses offered for her daily, comes from a strong Catholic family, even the Pope blessed her picture and prayed for her.

And yet that family continue to go through the unimaginable nightmare of their child still being missing and not knowing if she’s dead or alive. Can you even begin to imagine the mental and emotional torment that family is going through?

Ok, so this personal loving God won’t stop the kidnappers - they’ve not had their free will interfered with - they’ve done the deed - ok, so how about stopping the torture of the family and either she’s found alive or her body is discovered but at least the family can start to draw a line with whatever scenario they’re dealing with.

But no. Nothing. Despite all the prayers, and masses and petitions and vigils to God.

Nothing.

So, does God value freedom so much as to allow such evil? Yes, since if an evil man is not ultimately free to attempt the murder of a child or whatever other heinous act, he isn’t really “free” in his conscious will at all.

Fine. But why say stuff about if you have faith you can move mountains, ask in Jesus name and it will be given to you and so on Because clearly, your faith can’t interfer with the physical world, you can’t move mountains, and billions of faithful Catholic and other Christian and non Christian people offering up mass and vigils and asking for the safe return of this little girl to her family has fallen on deaf ears.

It is up to us humans to act on God’s will to try to prevent such evil intent from being carried out, not up to God to hamstring his own creation.

And that for me is the bottom line.

Nothing gets done, unless we do it ourselves.

So what’s the point of this personal loving Deity counting the hairs on our head and saying ask and it will be granted to you?



Sarah x

 

[Blacksword]

It’s more why doesn’t God answer prayers in the face of such direct evil. Like the case of little Madeline McCann. Missing now for five years, masses offered for her daily, comes from a strong Catholic family, even the Pope blessed her picture and prayed for her.

And yet that family continue to go through the unimaginable nightmare of their child still being missing and not knowing if she’s dead or alive. Can you even begin to imagine the mental and emotional torment that family is going through?

Ok, so this personal loving God won’t stop the kidnappers - they’ve not had their free will interfered with - they’ve done the deed - ok, so how about stopping the torture of the family and either she’s found alive or her body is discovered but at least the family can start to draw a line with whatever scenario they’re dealing with.

But no. Nothing. Despite all the prayers, and masses and petitions and vigils to God.

Nothing.

Fine. But why say stuff about if you have faith you can move mountains, ask in Jesus name and it will be given to you and so on Because clearly, your faith can’t interfer with the physical world, you can’t move mountains, and billions of faithful Catholic and other Christian and non Christian people offering up mass and vigils and asking for the safe return of this little girl to her family has fallen on deaf ears.

And that for me is the bottom line.

Nothing gets done, unless we do it ourselves.

So what’s the point of this personal loving Deity counting the hairs on our head and saying ask and it will be granted to you?



Sarah x

Yes, Jesus said that, but there is also the important consideration: what sorts of things does a person who really has such faith pray for? Prayers specifically for miracles, signs, or magical favors from on high are not the sort of thing one asks for who truly has such faith. I know that seems a little “catch-22-ish” but it’s true nonetheless. Prayers for peace and healing spiritually, prayers for perseverance in the face of such horror (and I have two little girls, yes, I have an inkling of the kind of abject terror and unending pain such a family would be in) are the kind of things such a person of faith asks for, not “God, solve this for us now and say Presto please!”

And we still also never know the subtle ways such prayers are answered, the promptings of the hearts of people by God, but these are generally the ways in which God answers, and even the Scriptures indicate this to the careful reader: God answers Elijah in a whisper in the wind, not the thunder clouds.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If I did believe in a God, I would have issues understanding why He feels the free will of a psychopathic rapist and murderer to do as he wants, is more important than the suffering he will inflict on his 8 year old victim, and their family, for generations to come.

If you do not see the value of freedom, then this explains why you don’t understand. This is another annoying thing I find irritating about some atheists. They actually dislike the idea of free will.

It’s why they’re often associated with anti-freedom and anti-responsibility philosophies like Socialism, Communism, and Maoism.

 

[atheistgirl]

If you do not see the value of freedom, then this explains why you don’t understand.

Oh, I completely see the value of freedom.

But this personal, loving God doesn’t appear to, to me.

Thankfully the civil authorities don’t think the murdering rapists ‘‘free will’’ trumps that of the 8 year old girls to be protected from him.

They actually dislike the idea of free will.

I don’t dislike the idea of free will. I dislike the inconsistency. God can’t appear and prove Himself according to some here, as that would interfer with our ‘‘free will’’ somehow, yet God has allegedly appeared to many holy people and Saints, with no ill effects of their free will apparently.

Jesus said ask in my name, and you will receive. This simply isn’t true, or at least isn’t consistent, and believers then have to equivocate all over the place with stuff like, well, we cant know what we’re praying for is what its best for us (like the return of Madelaine McCann to her distraught family is not best for them!) or God did indeed answer the prayers, just not in a way we can see or appreciate

People light candles in thanks to Saint Anthony for finding their passport, or keys, or whatever - prayer answered - the world, including the Pope, prays for the safe return of a little innocent girl to her family, for the last 5 years - prayer not answered.

Why would a set of car keys be more important than a missing child when deciding which prayers to answer?

Sarah x

 

[PumpkinSeed]

This is absolutely wonderful and I thank God for you firm and trusting Faith, your generosity and kindness, and a great blessing and witness.

But do you really think that condemning another or others is the way to travel and the way of The Gospel?

Do you think Jesus told someone when they were doing wrong?

I’m not condemning anyone. But being a stripper is morally wrong.

 

[PRmerger]

So the alleged Children of God, Catholic and otherwise, through all time without exception, are all bratty 4yos?

Sorry, I have no idea what this means. Could you please 'splain?

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Well, thinking about it, I do believe God can give you hope, and he can always give you love, and he can give you help in some way, even if its not much, or in the way you expected.

But when things turn rough, thats when people need to keep their faith in God.

I dont know why God allows little children to starve in Africa, or only some of them.

I dont know God’s plan for everybody/everything, and I don’t necessarily understand why he does/doesnt do certain things.

But I do know that he CAN help you, and that you should not underestimate him even if you dont understand him. Sometimes it feels like hes not doing anything to help you, but he just very well might be, even if you can’t see it.

Always trust in the Lord. He knows best, more than you or I can ever imagine.

 

[TimothyH]

What did He sound like when He said no?

Do you just assume because you haven’t got one yet, that that’s God will. His answer to your prayer is no.

What if you work really hard, save, and buy one in a year?

Does the fact that you can now afford one mean, and you buy one, mean God has changed His mind, after saying no initially?

I know you post is meant to be funny (and it is ) but it did make me wonder.

I bet that’s exactly how believers react. One minute it itsn’t God’s will, so the prayer is answered just not in the wayt the penitant was expecting, then when circumstances change and they achieve (through their own merits) what their goal is, suddently it’s all praise and thanks to God who allowed it to happen

Sarah x

One day I saw one and said, “Wow, that’s beautiful” and was at peace with the idea that I might not ever own one. I was cool with that. It didn’t bother me anymore.

At this stage in my life, I could walk into any car dealership, sign my name, and drive out with just about any car I want, and I could afford to make the payements and upkeep.

The thing is, once I was cool with the probability that I would never own one, I no longer wanted it. The obsession ended, and I was free to choose whether to buy one or not. Now if I ever do own one, it will be because I decide, not because I am obeying some urge or some obsession about something that is wildly impractical and will probably get me in big trouble anyway.

Sex is the prerfect example. People obey their urges. They can’t control themselves. They say that they are free to do as they please, but they really aren’t because they can’t stop thinking about it and can’t stop acting on their urges. They are anything but free. They are slaves to their own urges. I’m not that way any more. I used to be that way - oh boy!. But now my genitals obey me, not the other ay around. If I ever do decide to have sex, it will be on my terms. I will decide. It will be my choice, not some urge controlling me. That’s freedom.

That’s the only way I can describe it. It has no sound. Or it is the sound of a flower opening up. Take your pick. It is freedom, and peace. At Mass the priest says, “May grace and peace be with you all.” Before I believed in God I had no peace. Now, while everyone else is freaking out over every little thing, I’m at peace, and they turn to me and demand to know how it is that I am so calm.

That’s the only way I can describe it.

-Tim-

 

[PRmerger]

That was in relation to YOUR specific answer of ‘‘I don’t know’’ to a question I asked that YOU replied to.

Kindly don’t extrapolate my answer to YOU out to every poster here, and kindly don’t reply for me again, as I do not need your assistance in answering or responding to posts.

I have my own voice, thanks.

Sarah x

My apologies! :tiphat:

 

[atheistgirl]

not because I am obeying some urge or some obsession about something that is wildly impractical and will probably get me in big trouble anyway.

I know what you mean.

This is me and shoes :yup:

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Before I believed in God I had no peace.

That’s interesting. I am perfectly at peace with myself, my family, my world, and the world around me. I truely feel if I could ever believe in a God of any kind, I would have no peace. No real inner peace. I do not currently have the concept of being a broken human being, of not being good enough for this God, of wondering if I’m going to make it to heaven or be damned to hell for eternity.

Now, while everyone else is freaking out over every little thing, I’m at peace, and they turn to me and demand to know how it is that I am so calm.

But I’m like that too.

It’s a personality type, or, in some cases, a learned behavior.

You’re just a really calm, cool, nice guy to be around.

Some are born that way, some learn techniques along the way, to be cool, calm and collected under pressure.

That’s the only way I can describe it.

Thanks for your comments. Very interesting.

Sarah x

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Thankfully the civil authorities don’t think the murdering rapists ‘‘free will’’ trumps that of the 8 year old girls to be protected from him.

Those civil authorities had free will too.

I don’t dislike the idea of free will. I dislike the inconsistency. God can’t appear and prove Himself according to some here, as that would interfer with our ‘‘free will’’ somehow, yet God has allegedly appeared to many holy people and Saints, with no ill effects of their free will apparently.

Okay, now you’re the one oversimplifying things. What makes you think God is some genie subject to your or anyone’s will? God can choose too you know. Furthermore, as a being far more capable of seeing the bigger picture than both you, me, and all the human race combined, I’d give Him more credit as a decision-maker.

Why would a set of car keys be more important than a missing child when deciding which prayers to answer?

I hate to break it to you but your examples don’t really have a point. You think the reverse has never happened? I’ve heard plenty of stories were people lost their car keys and other belongings but ended up keeping their lives. Again, stop oversimplifying things.