Holy water isn't holy water unless blessed by a traditional priest?!

[Jsmith17]

I asked a similar question in this thread and got a lot of good responses. IMO (just my opinion), all water blessed by a preist is holy water, but how can I expect God to do something through it that no one has asked him to do? The new blessing of water asks God to make it a reminder of our baptism, which is fine for blessing yourself when entering and leaving Church, but what about driving away demons?
In the traditional formula, both the water and salt are first exorcised and it is asked that the water dispell demons and sickness. God may very well dispell demons with both types of holy water, but with the traditional formula there is no doubt in what the priest is asking him to do through it. Luckily I live close to a FSSP parish which makes holy water blessed with the traditional formula readily available to me, which is what I use around the house. Using this type of holy water is my personal preference; I’m not saying that it’s better or “makes stronger juju”, I just like knowing that a priest has asked that “everything in the homes and other buildings of the faithful that is sprinkled with this water may be rid of all uncleanness and freed from every harm”.

 

[scriabin]

Words matter. Formula matters.

Same question, different subject----

catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27028

VATICAN CITY (CNS) - **A baptism administered “in the name of the Creator, and of the Redeemer and of the Sanctifier” is not a baptism at all, **said the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The congregation’s statement was published Feb. 29 as a brief response to questions regarding the validity of baptisms using that formula.

Asked whether a baptism performed with that formula – or a similar one referring to the “Creator, Liberator and Sustainer” – would be valid, the congregation answered “Negative.”

Asked whether people who were initiated with a rite using these formulas would now need to be baptized “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” the congregation answered “Affirmative.”

The congregation said Pope Benedict XVI “approved these responses” and ordered their publication.

If either formula – recently initiated in North America to avoid referring to the Trinity with masculine names – was used, the person is not yet formally a Christian and any subsequent sacraments the person received also are invalid, said Cardinal Urbano Navarrete in a commentary commissioned by the doctrinal congregation.

"Persons who were baptized or will be baptized in the future with the formulas in question in reality are not baptized," the cardinal wrote.

Clearly these priests and deacons baptizing using “the creator, redeemer, and sanctifier” formula truly meant the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; but that’s not what they said.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Words matter. Formula matters.

Same question, different subject----

catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27028

Clearly these priests and deacons baptizing using “the creator, redeemer, and sanctifier” formula truly meant the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; but that’s not what they said.

I totally agree that this would be an invalid baptism. If I ever heard a deacon, priest or anyone do it, I would correct them immediately. Further, I would report it to the local ordinary. As to the formula used for blessing the water, I was told in formation that holy water is holy water, period. If blessed, it has the same power. Can I quote chapter and verse on this, no I cannot. I am proceeding on what I was taught.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[nice2000]

The water IS blessed
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Hi Deacon,

Maybe I should start a new thread.
I have a question. though.
Is it okay to drink holy water?

I was very thirsty when I came to work this morning.
I don’t like drinking water from the spicket (sink) because it tastes like chlorine.
I had a bottle of “Holy Water” in my desk that I
got from church several weeks ago. (that big silver container).
No cashflow to purchase a bottle of water.

I drank it.

It tasted clean and pure.

 

[DavidJoseph]

The title of the OP was silly. *Of course *water validly blessed by any priest, deacon, or bishop (traditional or not) becomes Holy Water; but the post was more nuanced than the title implied.

My choice of wording was not silly. Who made you the authority on judging others’ thread titles?

I chose the title because it’s exactly what the person in question was saying – that holy water and blessed water were 2 different things (I saw no difference, but he sure did).

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

After I put up my previous post, I checked the Book of Blessings, for Blessing of Water Outside Mass. The only reference it has is to our baptism and renewal of spiritual life. There is none for blessing during mass,nor one that includes the exorcism prayer.
Prayaers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[scylla]

My choice of wording was not silly. Who made you the authority on judging others’ thread titles?

I chose the title because it’s exactly what the person in question was saying – that holy water and blessed water were 2 different things (I saw no difference, but he sure did).

I believe that person you were talking to was way off on their assertion. Of course the water is holy.

Hmm, maybe we should then steer this thread into a new direction as it seems that the objection made that person is unclear. I would think that the blessing makes the water holy though it would be lacking in certain qualities as done by the earlier blessing.

It is a waste of time to argue about the thread title as it is just a quote of someone’s objection. Lets talk about the real point of the thread.

Does the current blessing confer the same qualities to the water as the earlier blessing? It seems that there is a good point there as we do get what we ask for, blessings are not infallible pronounce ments and no one has come up with a good contrary explanation.

Scylla

 

[bpbasilphx]

Are you saying unless you say certain words, holy water doesn’t have strong juju?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Hi Deacon,

Maybe I should start a new thread.
I have a question. though.
Is it okay to drink holy water?

I was very thirsty when I came to work this morning.
I don’t like drinking water from the spicket (sink) because it tastes like chlorine.
I had a bottle of “Holy Water” in my desk that I
got from church several weeks ago. (that big silver container).
No cashflow to purchase a bottle of water.

I drank it.

It tasted clean and pure.

I do know people who drink holy water regularly. Not in large quantities, but just a sip a day. I see nothing wrong with this, so long as one does not do this believing that it is a magic cure all. It certainly cannot hurt. I know of Charismatic priests who have told people to do this with prayer for certain illnesses and have claimed healing. I cannot say if there was medical corroboration. For what it is worth, I am charismatic.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[bpbasilphx]

Are you saying unless you say certain words, holy water doesn’t have strong juju?

**And I clicked the wrong button too soon.

My point is that if the Church says it’s Holy Water, it’s Holy Water.

And all Holy Water is equal.**

 

[mercygate]

That does make sense, **it would be blessed but not necessarily for the purpose of exorcism **or so since the Priest did not ask for it we did not receive it.

I have heard this sentiment from a diocesan priest of the Charismatic, non-traditionalist persuasion. But you don’t have to be a “traditionalist” priest to bless Holy Water with the “traditional” formula.

 

[nice2000]

I do know people who drink holy water regularly. Not in large quantities, but just a sip a day. I see nothing wrong with this, so long as one does not do this believing that it is a magic cure all. It certainly cannot hurt. I know of Charismatic priests who have told people to do this with prayer for certain illnesses and have claimed healing. I cannot say if there was medical corroboration. For what it is worth, I am charismatic.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Thanks Deacon for your answer.

No, I won’t do this on a regular basis.

My throat was really parched this morning.

That was the purest thing I could think of drinking at the time, besides the bottled spring water.

It cured my parched lips.

 

[scylla]

Are you saying unless you say certain words, holy water doesn’t have strong juju?

And I clicked the wrong button too soon.

My point is that if the Church says it’s Holy Water, it’s Holy Water.

And all Holy Water is equal.

I am pretty sure the Church does not say all Holy water is equal. I would certainly agree that all blessed water is Holy.

Bread can be blessed and is blessed just as the Eucharist is blessed but there is a significant difference.

I have not seen one compelling or explanation to the contrary so we should not just dismiss the point until there is an explanation or authoratative Church proclamation.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[bpbasilphx]

**I am pretty sure the Church does not say all Holy water is equal. I would certainly agree that all blessed water is Holy.

Bread can be blessed and is blessed just as the Eucharist is blessed but there is a significant difference.**

**Where does the Church NOT say that all Holy Water is equal?

WHY would the Church not say it? Or rather, why WOULD the Church say there are different degrees of Holy Water?

And merely blessing bread (which is done in many contexts in Eastern Christianity) is manifestly NOT the same as the Eucharist, which is by its nature considerably more than merely blessed bread.

This does not keep blessed bread from being blessed bread–and equal to other blessed bread.**

 

[Cristiano]

…Bread can be blessed and is blessed just as the Eucharist is blessed but there is a significant difference…

You are right and you are wrong!
You are right because once the gifts are blessed at the altar, the bread is just blessed bread and it is not any more special than any blessed bread. All the blessed breads are the same.
You are wrong because you are missing the point that once the blessed bread is transubstantiated into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ it is just something completely different. The Eucharist is not bread.

 

[scylla]

You are right and you are wrong!
You are right because once the gifts are blessed at the altar, the bread is just blessed bread and it is not any more special than any blessed bread. All the blessed breads are the same.
You are wrong because you are missing the point that once the blessed bread is transubstantiated into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ it is just something completely different. The Eucharist is not bread.

I am not sure if you understood what I meant. As I said the Eucharist being the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ is significantly different than blessed bread.

I was not saying there is a difference in blessing of Bread but what happens to it when different words are said over it by a Priest. One just becomes blessed bread, one becomes Jesus, that is the power of God working through the words of the Priest.

Which is why words are so important, as someone pointed out earlier, God gives us what we want. Which is why there seems to be a huge difference between Holy water blessed in the new way and the old way. In this case both are Holy water but they are different types of Holy Water.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Cristiano]

I am not sure if you understood what I meant. As I said the Eucharist being the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ is significantly different than blessed bread.

I was not saying there is a difference in blessing of Bread but what happens to it when different words are said over it by a Priest. One just becomes blessed bread, one becomes Jesus, that is the power of God working through the words of the Priest.

Which is why words are so important, as someone pointed out earlier, God gives us what we want. Which is why there seems to be a huge difference between Holy water blessed in the new way and the old way. In this case both are Holy water but they are different types of Holy Water.

God Bless
Scylla

The transubstantiation does not happen because of the words of blessing but because of the following words of consecration. Blessing and consecration are two different steps.

You also have to consider that holy water is a sacramental while the Eucharist is the Sacrament. The Eucharist has an intrinsic power; however the sacramental does not. I think that we might be bordering into superstition if we assign specific powers to the holy water.

 

[scylla]

The transubstantiation does not happen because of the words of blessing but because of the following words of consecration. Blessing and consecration are two different steps.

You also have to consider that holy water is a sacramental while the Eucharist is the Sacrament. The Eucharist has an intrinsic power; however the sacramental does not. I think that we might be bordering into superstition if we assign specific powers to the holy water.

I agree with you completely Blessing and Consecration are two different steps, because different actions(words) are used.

God uses the actions of the Priest to bring about certain results in much the same way in the Blessing of Water.

We do not assign powers to Holy Water specifically, God works through Sacramentals to give us what we need and ask for.

If we think it is the Holy Water itself then it is superstition, but if we understand that God works though matter to do His will when asked, it is not superstition.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[jmcrae]

After I put up my previous post, I checked the Book of Blessings, for Blessing of Water Outside Mass. The only reference it has is to our baptism and renewal of spiritual life. There is none for blessing during mass,nor one that includes the exorcism prayer.
Prayaers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

This being the case, does it not make sense then for someone to prefer to use water blessed by an FSSP priest or an Exorcist (who normally use the earlier formula of blessing), if the purpose of the holy water is to protect a space or person from the activity of demons, or else to assist in releasing a ghost into the afterlife?

 

[scriabin]

Here’s some more information; again, not definitive, but possibly helpful. From the Catholic Encyclopedia under ‘blessings’—

newadvent.org/cathen/02599b.htm

theologians distinguish blessings of an intermediate sort, by which things are rendered special instruments of salvation without at the same time becoming irrevocably sacred, such as blessed salt, candles, etc.

Blessings are not sacraments; they are not of Divine institution; they do not confer sanctifying grace; and they do not produce their effects in virtue of the rite itself, or ex opere operanto. **They are sacramentals and, as such, they produce the following specific effects: **

Excitation of pious emotions and affections of the heart and, by means of these, remission of venial sin and of the temporal punishment due to it.
**Freedom from power of evil spirits; **Preservation and restoration of bodily health.
Various other benefits, temporal or spiritual.

**All these effects are not necessarily **inherent in any one blessing; some are caused by one formula, and others by another, according to the intentions of the Church