Home-schooled girl fights for band spot

[Giannawannabe]

ChrisR246:

Likle everyone else, whatever the buyer is willing to pay, not what the government decides to take.

Giannawannabe:
Really. What would that be? Salary wise. It seems no matter what the salary is, someone thinks it’s too high.

So does most everyone else.

Giannawannabe:
I’m sure that’s true. However, when people go on and on about how much money teachers make, it seems odd that the’re “just like everyone else”

Not me. Send 'em year 'round with a 2 or 3 week break every quarter. Or better yet, let the schools individually decide how they want to teach, how much to pay and how much to charge and let the parents decide which they think is best and where to send their kids.

Giannawannabe:
You’re in the minority on this one–guaranteed. Regarding the year round school idea. I like your second thought regarding schools individually deciding matters about pay, etc.

Of course not the teachers.

Giannawannabe:
Yes. There are bad teachers. There are also bad doctors, lawyers, nurses, engineers, etc. When kids come to school with disrespectful attitudes; have parents putting extracurriculars first (i.e. pulling kids out for a week for dance competitions, and then being upset that their grades are falling);fall asleep in class and when teacher reprimands kid the parents haul themselves down to the school to get into the teacher’s face about it; kids who do not finish homework/assignments on time or at all and then the parents come down on the teacher for giving their kid a bad grade, etc. etc.–this type of thing is the absolute major hurdle for most teachers who simply want to teach. Parents, for the most part DO NOT back up the teachers with regard to disciplining their children. A lot of parents are lawsuit happy as well. This ties teachers’ hands to a certain degree regarding discipline. It’s very frustrating.

And who is it that lobbies the government as to what should be standard? Not the teachers/admins?

Giannawannabe:
Recently, in our state, the governor set standards for reproductive health class—abstinence-based. The teachers/administrators recently gave a presentation at a board meeting as to how they would meet the standards. Schools in other districts approached the matter differently, but still needed to meet the guidelines set up.

Probably, so don’t give me a voucher, just stop taking my money in the first place.

Giannawannbe:
That’s fine. In a perfect world, if everyone would just pay for their own children’s education, it would solve much of the things we’re bickering about here.

 

[Jennifer123]

bapcathluth:

I am thankful that I live in Wisconsin where the public schools are very good. My children are having wonderful experiences here. I would never want to deprive them of the experience of friends and school. My warmest memories are of my school days.

Not being too far removed from public school days, I too have good memories. But I also have memories of peer pressure of drinking and the pressure as a girl to not be “too smart” all that kind of stuff. I can only imagine what it must be like now, the kids are so much more “sophisticated” now.

 

[ChrisR246]

Really. What would that be? Salary wise. It seems no matter what the salary is, someone thinks it’s too high.

Sure. And people will tell you the price of a new car is too high, too. Yet new cars continue to be bought without the government forcing anyone to pony up the $$. The salary would depend on what is being provided.

However, when people go on and on about how much money teachers make, it seems odd that the’re “just like everyone else”

You’re right - teachers are not like everyone else. Everyone else works 12 months a year. Everyone else works at least 8 hours per day. Everyone else would be fired if most of the work they did resulted in failures. Most don’t get snow days off. These are the reasons "everyone else"complains - teachers complain about their pay not being equal to other professions, but ignore the other differences.

You’re in the minority on this one–guaranteed.

I’m pretty sure everyone who putas their kids in daycare would agree - it would be cheaper for them then finding care during the summer.

When kids come to school with disrespectful attitudes, have parents putting extracurriculars first (i.e. pulling kids out for a week for dance competitions, and then being upset that their grades are falling), fall asleep in class and when teacher reprimands kid the parents haul themselves down to the school to get into the teacher’s face about it, kids who do not finish homework/assignments on time or at all and then the parents come down on the teacher for giving their kid a bad grade, etc. etc.–this type of thing is the absolute major hurdle for most teachers who simply want to teach. Parents, for the most part DO NOT back up the teachers with regard to disciplining their children.

I agree with you. My sister teaches in inner city Philadlephia. I hear all kinds of horror stories. All the more reason I should not be forced to subsidize the “education” these kids are getting.

 

[Giannawannabe]

ChrisR246:

Not me. Send 'em year 'round with a 2 or 3 week break every quarter. Or better yet, let the schools individually decide how they want to teach, how much to pay and how much to charge and let the parents decide which they think is best and where to send their kids.

Just a little aside on this point. In our state, initiatives have begun for “school of choice”. Parents can send their kids to any school that is cooperating with the program, as long as there is a spot for that student. These types of programs may also be in other states.

 

[Adonis33]

Lurch104:

I think that for two random weeks per year (no notice to the public school), every private and parochial school should close their doors and send the children to public schools. Let them see how much money we are saving the school system when they are overloaded with our children. Maybe then they would be more reasonable when hijacking OUR income.

I have audited sever school districts in my area. $40k per year for a starting teacher with a range of between $60-$90k (using a SVRS) for experienced teachers is my experience. Additionally, $2k per year additional per student they mentor in one district. When asked what constitutes mentoring, no formal guidelines were given (or in place). All of this for working 9 months per year. I live in central PA, not NYC or LA, our cost of living is very modest. This is absolutely ridiculous.

WOW!!!Teachers can make between $60-$90K per year???
I’ve got to move.

 

[ChrisR246]

Giannawannabe:

Just a little aside on this point. In our state, initiatives have begun for “school of choice”. Parents can send their kids to any school that is cooperating with the program, as long as there is a spot for that student. These types of programs may also be in other states.

Our allows it, too. Unfortunately, the schools that are know or perceived to be better quickly fill up, so parents who want more for their kids are still stuck.

Now, in a private setting, other schools would adopt the methods, styles, etc of the popular schools to increase enrollment, or reduce tuition. But in public schools neither happens. Parents who can’t get their kids into the school they want still pay as much and none of the schools change because the board likes the diversity and can rely on all the kids who can’t get into the good schools to fill up the bad ones.

 

[Adonis33]

It is incredibly unfair to compare our public school systems with other countries - it will not be an apples to apples comparrison. If I remember correctly, Germany and S. Korea have Vocational Schools. In (what we would call) middle school - they test to see where they will be educated - to see what kind of job they have. I fact - from what I understand - in S. Korea - this testing day is so important they will not allow Planes to fly overhead (correct me if I’m wrong). I believe Japan has the same system.

When they compare students - they compare academic schools not the vocational schools. If you want a true representation of our eduational system - look at our universities.

If you are going to claim that “most public schools are bad” - pleae have statistical data to back it up. Its not only different for state to state - its different from district to district.

I live in San Antonio (Go Spurs) and the district I teach at has ajhuge number of retired Military who teach. Our schools tend to be a little more conservative - due to the Military presents in our comunity (we have two AF bases and one Army Fort). Many schools in my district are nationally recognised (Blue Ribbon School of Excellence).

I am in favor of vouchers - and I intent to home school my kids. My only concern for vouchers - is that the Fed Gov. will start to regulate private education. Am I wrong?

 

[Giannawannabe]

ChrisR246:

You’re right - teachers are not like everyone else. Everyone else works 12 months a year. Everyone else works at least 8 hours per day. Everyone else would be fired if most of the work they did resulted in failures. Most don’t get snow days off. These are the reasons "everyone else"complains - teachers complain about their pay not being equal to other professions, but ignore the other differences.

.

I’m not sure I agree that teachers complain so much about their pay. My dh is happy that he has a job (he was out of work for several years), and enjoys what he does immensely. I’m commenting on others saying that teachers are the reason for “bad” public schools and they get paid too much. I guess there has to be a scapegoat—and teachers are easy prey.
I’m just trying to figure out what exactly your problem is with public school teachers? They are generally an honest, hardworking group of individuals working with kids from various home environments, doing a job that apparently no one respects or thinks deserves any kind of decent wage. Honestly, I really would like to know why you have such anger towards public school teachers? Yes. I agree there are problems with public schools. A LOT of the problem has to do with the attitudes of parents towards education. Parents raise their kids in terrible environments and do not discipline them. They send them to school and expect the teacher to perform miracles—teach them manners, respect, in addition to math/science. If their kid gets in trouble or does poorly, the teacher is blamed.

 

[Giannawannabe]

Adonis33:

It is incredibly unfair to compare our public school systems with other countries - it will not be an apples to apples comparrison. If I remember correctly, Germany and S. Korea have Vocational Schools. In (what we would call) middle school - they test to see where they will be educated - to see what kind of job they have. I fact - from what I understand - in S. Korea - this testing day is so important they will not allow Planes to fly overhead (correct me if I’m wrong). I believe Japan has the same system.

When they compare students - they compare academic schools not the vocational schools. If you want a true representation of our eduational system - look at our universities.

If you are going to claim that “most public schools are bad” - pleae have statistical data to back it up. Its not only different for state to state - its different from district to district.

QUOTE]
This is true Adonis 33.

In other countries, especially in Asia, results of academic achievement are definitely skewed. Kids are tested to see whether they go on to High School or vocational school. The top students go on to High School, the others go elsewhere. These top students are the only ones tested and those test results are compared to our High School test scores(which includes ALL students, not just the top students). Can you imagine if, in this country, we weeded out the poor students like that? That’s why it appears our schools are “failing” compared to other countries.

 

[Giannawannabe]

ChrisR246:

I agree with you. My sister teaches in inner city Philadlephia. I hear all kinds of horror stories. All the more reason I should not be forced to subsidize the “education” these kids are getting.

Again. It’s not the education that makes these kids difficult. They come into the schools difficult to educate.

 

[Adonis33]

Giannawannabe:

I’m not sure I agree that teachers complain so much about their pay. My dh is happy that he has a job (he was out of work for several years), and enjoys what he does immensely. I’m commenting on others saying that teachers are the reason for “bad” public schools and they get paid too much. I guess there has to be a scapegoat—and teachers are easy prey.
I’m just trying to figure out what exactly your problem is with public school teachers? They are generally an honest, hardworking group of individuals working with kids from various home environments, doing a job that apparently no one respects or thinks deserves any kind of decent wage. Honestly, I really would like to know why you have such anger towards public school teachers? Yes. I agree there are problems with public schools. A LOT of the problem has to do with the attitudes of parents towards education. Parents raise their kids in terrible environments and do not discipline them. They send them to school and expect the teacher to perform miracles—teach them manners, respect, in addition to math/science. If their kid gets in trouble or does poorly, the teacher is blamed.

I spent some time teaching in a BMC (Behavior Management Center), with some emotionally distrubed High School Students. If some of these people spent one day with them, they wouldn’t be complaing about teachers being paid too little. In the classes I teach, we are threatened, cursed at, oparents are threatening to sue us, the list goes on and on. Granted - not all teachers have to go through all that (I’m a Special Education Teacher), but people need to actually go inside the classroom and see what goes on before they give their opinion. Please bare in mind - I’m not complaining just stating how it is.

Also - I do not always go through what I described - most of the time my students are pretty good. (Except in the BMC)

 

[ChrisR246]

Giannawannabe:

I’m just trying to figure out what exactly your problem is with public school teachers?

There are number of things, none which can be applied to every individual, but seem to be in a large number… the condescending attitude towards non teachers about any academic subject, particularly when coupled with an obvious lack of not only expertise, but often times even rudimentary familiarity with the subjects they are supposed to be teaching…masking personal opinion as information in the curriculum…the unwillingness to take responsibility for the (lack of) results… the unwillingness to be open to opposing viewpoints, while all the while proclaiming the virtues of tolerance…refusing to oppose the various education lobbying groups, such as the NEA, in things they know are wrong…the attitude that they are somehow entitled to my money…

Honestly, I really would like to know why you have such anger towards public school teachers?

But despite the list above, it’s not the teachers, per se. It’s the entire concept of the public system - that we be forced to pay, that kids be forced to attend but there is no accountability of the schools’ part. That they teach what they like, regardless of my (our) concerns and we can do nothing but keep paying.

 

[Lurch104]

Adonis33:

WOW!!!Teachers can make between $60-$90K per year???
I’ve got to move.

Harrisburg, PA

Several of the CPA’s that I work with are considering taking jobs in the district. It does not pay to work 60+ hours per week when you can make more for working basically half days for 9 months per year.

Heck, our HS **football coach ** makes $87k per year and teaches NO classes.

courses.psu.edu/hcomm/hcomm494_pjk12/Sports/coach.html The avg salary for other teachers listed is for the county, the teaching salaries I stated are for the city…from first hand knowledge.

All of this and the school is horrible. They are bragging that nearly half the seniors now graduate after improvements have been made. BTW, my school taxes are ridiculous. I pay $4100 per year for a very modest home plus an additional “tax” of $3700 per year so that I can send my child to a decent school (local Catholic HS).

 

[ChrisR246]

Giannawannabe:

Again. It’s not the education that makes these kids difficult. They come into the schools difficult to educate.

Oh, I understand. So why force the other students, who want to learn, to be held back by those who don’t? Where is the push from the teachers allied with parents to eliminate mandatory attendance so that those who want to learn can? There will never be such an alliance, because the teachers unions know that more kids under their control is more power.

 

[Adonis33]

Lurch104:

Harrisburg, PA

Several of the CPA’s that I work with are considering taking jobs in the district. It does not pay to work 60+ hours per week when you can make more for working basically half days for 9 months per year.

Heck, our HS **football coach ** makes $87k per year and teaches NO classes.

courses.psu.edu/hcomm/hcomm494_pjk12/Sports/coach.html The avg salary for other teachers listed is for the county, the teaching salaries I stated are for the city…from first hand knowledge.

All of this and the school is horrible. They are bragging that nearly half the seniors now graduate after improvements have been made. BTW, my school taxes are ridiculous. I pay $4100 per year for a very modest home plus an additional “tax” of $3700 per year so that I can send my child to a decent school (local Catholic HS).

Ouch! that is a lot to pay in property tax.

I also have a problem with the way school districts handle money. My district, in a seven year period, raised around **$1 billion **dollars in bond money. Yes - that is billion with a “B”. Granted, we are one of the fastest growng districts in the country - but that is a lot of money to expect the taxpayers to vote on.

 

[ChrisR246]

Adonis33:

but people need to actually go inside the classroom and see what goes on before they give their opinion

No offense, but no, I don’t. I don’t need to have first hand experience of what a teacher does to decide that I don’t like being forced to pay for something I don’t use.

 

[Adonis33]

ChrisR246:

No offense, but no, I don’t. I don’t need to have first hand experience of what a teacher does to decide that I don’t like being forced to pay for something I don’t use.

You pay for a lot of things you do not use. Parks, stadiums, aquriums, zoo’s. May be these are bad examples) BTW - I am in favor of vouchers - I would just like the Fed Gov not to be able to regulate.

I was not referring to you not wanting to pay - but you characterization of teachers as lazy - an inference to the comment “not working 8 hour days” How could you possibly know? I often put in 10-13 hour days.

 

[ChrisR246]

Adonis33:

You pay for a lot of things you do not use. Parks, stadiums, aquriums, zoo’s. May be these are bad examples)

Well, to save anyone from starting a new thread - I’m opposed to being forced to pay for any of those, too, via taxes.

I was not referring to you not wanting to pay - but you characterization of teachers as lazy - an inference to the comment “not working 8 hour days” How could you possibly know? I often put in 10-13 hour days.

As best I can tell, a school day runs from about 8:30 to 3:00 and includes prep time and lunch. I put in 10-13 hours, or more, somedays, too. And I sometimes do it in July or August.

I don’t think they are lazy, I simply resent them pushing for shorter days, smaller classes, not seeing any improvements and having no choice in paying for it.

 

[KathleenElsie]

SORRY A RANT:

Giannawannabe:

Okay. What is it? Starting salary of 26K or 40K? Another poster from Pennsylvania was complaining that the starting salary of teachers in her area was 26K. I have never heard of starting teachers at 40K. My husband works in a very affluent area—the teachers start at about 27,500K.
Honestly, what SHOULD teachers be paid? What would the anti-public school teacher people think is fair? My husband works year round—he’s teaching summer school as we speak and does tutoring on the side to make ends meet. As another poster pointed out, if you’re a teacher who is married with a family, your spouse pretty much has to work. Teachers with years of experience and who have their PhDs make around 60K. To make up 90K would mean being an administrator of some sort.
The job description of 9 months per year is pretty general. That is how it is. The same people complaining that teachers only work 9 months a year, would also complain if their kid had to go to school all year.
So much complaining about teachers, when the real problem is the parents/families and to a certain extent the local government which pretty much dictates what needs to be taught to meet government standards.
Again, this is the problem with vouchers. If a private school/home school family uses vouchers, they will eventually be held to government standards as they will be using tax money.

I guess I am the one that was complaining about the starting salary. So here goes. In the area that we live in the average starting salary for people just out of school other then nursing or teaching is around $18 to $20 thousand. We are a depressed area and still have pockets of unemployment over 8%.
We are not Hi-teck and have no real growth unless you call Wal-Mart jobs real growth. (Nothing against Wal-Mart we shop there).
In PA each small area has its own school district and that includes all the admin that goes with it. Within five miles of me you can be in four school districts and each of them has its own transportation, library, sports and music programs.
The fact that we watch out for the spending in the schools does not make us anti-teacher (those were others words put into my mouth).
No one pays for any of our childrens education. We pay our taxes and we pay for ALL of the needs of our home schooled children. This fall the eldest child (8yo) will be starting his fourth language in this case LATIN. He has been exposed to French, Spanish, German and now LATIN. The baby is exposed to the educational process daily while her brothers are being instructed in classes. She is 18 months old and uses American Sign Lang to ask for things and tell us her needs.
Both boys have been reading since age three as was their mother and uncle.
On the other hand it seems that we home schoolers are accused of being anti-handicapped. Please, tell that to our friends that homeschool their special needs children. I am sure they would tell you that their special ones get more attention and education with progress toward independance at home and in our enrichment programs.
We have to provide records to the public school districts in PA and in most cases the evaluators comment on how far advanced the students we teach are.
I am proud of my well educated, mature, social children and their Catholic families.

 

[Steve_Andersen]

ChrisR246:

…No, schools are funded by everyone paying taxes. The money may be distributed based on attendance, but the funding pool comes from everyone.

Isn’t that what I said?

ChrisR246:

The truth is exactly the opposite of your claim. Those with children in public schools are the ones stealing - from everyone who pays taxes, plus pays tuition to private school, from those who pay taxes, but don’t have kids in school, etc.

You’re just messing with me right?

ChrisR246:

I think you are being sarcastic,

Actually that was one of the few times I wasn’t

ChrisR246:

but I agree with the sentiment. Why should you be forced to pay for schools that you are not using? …

Because an educated population is in general better than an non-educated one
It is more productive and thus lowers everyone’s tax burden
An educated population is essential for a republic

Besides, today’s kids are going to running things when I’m old so I gotta make sure they know what they’re doing

ChrisR246:

1. No where does the US Constitution give the Federal government any authority over any of these areas.

Oh please Lord…not one of these guys

sigh

How about the preamble “…promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity”

or more specifically article 1 section 9 which pretty much lets congress do whatever it wants when interpreting the preamble

But that is beside the point since the case in question is not a federal case

ChrisR246:

…2) If they are a public utility, then why do want to deny some the use of these facilities, just because they don’t want to use it all?

The same reason that you wouldn’t let someone take out a book without a library card.
Or let everyone ride on the fire truck “hey! My taxes paid for this”

ChrisR246:

…But it’s OK for those of us who choose to send our children to private schools to fund those who don’t?

If you choose to opt out of the system that is your choice…you knew the deal
No one forced you to.

We have made a decision on the local, state and national level that it is in the general good for there to be schools. Like any other general good it gets paid from the general funds.

ChrisR246:

…I think I now understand what is going on. Public school supporters oppose home schooling and private schooling because the funds are distributed based on attendance.

I don’t oppose home schooling
I oppose the guy in the story whining that he can’t use services he’s not paid for

ChrisR246:

If the funds were distributed based on the number of children residing in the district, regardless of where they go, the teachers, admins and other supporters would do a 180. Suddenly they’d be encouraging home schooling and private schooling, becauser they’d continue to get the same funding with fewer children.

Interesting idea

One flaw I can see is that since censuses are taken every ten years this could seriously delay funding for growing communities
A child can be born and halfway through grade school before he shows up in a census.

Besides, it is fitting and appropriate for we, the people, to decide that we want a certain level of spending per student and the only way to account for that is bums on seats.