Homeschoolers forced into CCD for First Holy Eucharist

[jmcrae]

Yes, children need absolutely no training in the faith.

As much as you may assert your preference for children to go to school, it is only your preference. Why do you insist on your *preference *against parents’ rights and responsibilities? Do you have anything to support your claim that (emphasis yours) Everyone should be sending their children to school?

I made the case that it lies in the parents’ prerogative to educate their children. If you cannot make your own case, then I submit such as evidence on the effectiveness of homeschooling, as well as the hollowness of your claim.

Children should go to school so that they can discover that there are a wide variety of opinions out there for them to discuss and explore - not just Mom and Dad’s opinion. They could also use it as an opportunity to share their own opinions with others, as well, and enter into two-way communication with the outside world that isn’t mediated by Mom and Dad, thus learning things that Mom and Dad don’t already know.

They should go to school so that they can have a large number of teachers, each of whom is specially trained in a particular discipline (English, Math, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc.) and be able to get more in depth knowledge of each of these subjects.

They should also go to school to find out that they are not the center of the universe - that not everything revolves around their needs or their wants - and also to find out that they are not as fragile as they thought they were, and that they can stand up to all kinds of outside influences, and not only not be harmed by them, but even be made better by them, as iron sharpens iron.

 

[CDNowak]

Children should go to school so that they can discover that there are a wide variety of opinions out there for them to discuss and explore - not just Mom and Dad’s opinion. They could also use it as an opportunity to share their own opinions with others, as well, and enter into two-way communication with the outside world that isn’t mediated by Mom and Dad, thus learning things that Mom and Dad don’t already know.

Happens in homeschooling.

They should go to school so that they can have a large number of teachers, each of whom is specially trained in a particular discipline (English, Math, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc.) and be able to get more in depth knowledge of each of these subjects.

Happens in homeschooling.

They should also go to school to find out that they are not the center of the universe - that not everything revolves around their needs or their wants - and also to find out that they are not as fragile as they thought they were, and that they can stand up to all kinds of outside influences, and not only not be harmed by them, but even be made better by them, as iron sharpens iron.

Happens in big families and happens in homeschooling.

Did you have a point? Anything beyond opinion?

 

[jmcrae]

Happens in homeschooling.

Let’s define our terms. “Homeschooling” as I understand it, is Mom reading the textbook to the child at the kitchen table, and the child doing the worksheets, until it’s time to do the housework/go play. Sometimes, mother and child will go on a field trip to the art gallery or museum, but again, the only communication for the child is with the mother - the mother mediates any communication with the museum staff, etc.

What is your definition of home schooling?

 

[crazzeto]

No, but I can be sure of what they are using in CCD class. It a watered down version of our faith.

Then why are you just complaining about it on the internet? Why aren’t you involved doing something about it?

At your parish. At mine, it is an hour Sunday morning. An hour on a day that should be spent with family and at rest, rather than with 60 other students in one classroom.

You keep quoting this 60 kids a room number, I’ve never heard of such a thing in any parish. But moving on, what is more important? God? Or an hour with your family? I would suggest that God is, which means ensured, good catechisation of our childeren. Using this so called “home school CCD” idea of yours, you just can not make any such assurances.

Then for Confirmation there is a weekend co-ed retreat. For First Communion there is a Saturday “retreat” at the church.There isn’t a paid school official checking up on anything. We do have a paid, CRE (Coordinator of Religious Ed). No one I am aware of has ever been fired.

How about teaching the right thing to begin with, instead of making me drill my child to make sure no one is teaching something counter to the Church’s teaching? Why do I have to police the teaching? If the Church takes responsibility to teach, they should take responsibility to police those that teach. Problem is, we are all volunteers and there aren’t enough of us.

Again, why not get involved? Start teaching classes your self? Home school CCD is a terrible idea, it promotes dissension, in fact it inherently is dissension against the church, as well as encourages poorly formed faith among the childeren (on the whole, I’m there are exceptions with someone such as your self) and makes the church weaker. We are a Church of Christian Unity. What you are talking about directly opposes this.

 

[CDNowak]

Let’s define our terms. “Homeschooling” as I understand it, is Mom reading the textbook to the child at the kitchen table, and the child doing the worksheets, until it’s time to do the housework/go play. Sometimes, mother and child will go on a field trip to the art gallery or museum, but again, the only communication for the child is with the mother - the mother mediates any communication with the museum staff, etc.

What is your definition of home schooling?

Oh, you’ve got to be kidding me…

Let’s see: the education of a child primarily by their parents in their own home (be it at a desk, at the table, on the floor, outside, or the laundry room). This can include instruction by their parents, other parents in the community, and (occasionally) others, field-trips, co-ops, sports, drama productions, and various social activities internal and external to the homeschool group. The schedule is usually flexible so as to accommodate the children’s interests, activities, and even proficiencies in various subjects.

The socialization that the homeschool child receives during “school hours” differs qualitatively with the school system as well. Schools, in general, have a strong horizontal element to the socialization: children socialize with their so called peers who happen to have been born within a year of their birthdays (unless they were held back, or in rare cases pushed ahead a grade). Homeschoolers, because the interaction takes place much more at the family level, interact with children of all ages, as well as adults. It is not strange to see a homeschooled child having a fully engaging conversation with an adult on their current project (in whatever their field of interest might be).

Your limited conception of homeschooling is so rare, that it would be fair to say that it does not exist.

 

[CDNowak]

I would suggest that God is, which means ensured, good catechisation of our childeren. Using this so called “home school CCD” idea of yours, you just can not make any such assurances.

snip<
Home school CCD is a terrible idea, it promotes dissension, in fact it inherently is dissension against the church, as well as encourages poorly formed faith among the childeren (on the whole, I’m there are exceptions with someone such as your self) and makes the church weaker. We are a Church of Christian Unity. What you are talking about directly opposes this.

crazzeto, I think I must be misunderstanding you. Can you please explain to me how following Church teaching on the responsibilities and rights of parents is dissenting from the Church in anyway shape or form? Can you show me how I am seriously misguided in my reading of canon law, Familiaris Consortio, Quam Singulari, et al.? Can you explain to me how three generations have received, assuredly, a good catechization and yet Church attendance and belief in the doctrines of the Church have fallen? Can you explain to me how the grave seeds of dissent arose over these generations?

Can you explain to me how you, most likely a product of this assuredly correct teaching, can spread disunity by accusing others of disobeying the Church when it has been demonstrated that they are not?

 

[maryjk]

Then why are you just complaining about it on the internet? Why aren’t you involved doing something about it?

You must have missed the part where I said, I teach

You keep quoting this 60 kids a room number, I’ve never heard of such a thing in any parish. But moving on, what is more important? God? Or an hour with your family? I would suggest that God is, which means ensured, good catechisation of our childeren. Using this so called “home school CCD” idea of yours, you just can not make any such assurances.

Just because you haven’t heard of it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It is more important to spend the hour with God, which is why we attend Mass.

Again, why not get involved? Start teaching classes your self? Home school CCD is a terrible idea, it promotes dissension, in fact it inherently is dissension against the church, as well as encourages poorly formed faith among the childeren (on the whole, I’m there are exceptions with someone such as your self) and makes the church weaker. We are a Church of Christian Unity. What you are talking about directly opposes this.

The problem is, you figure if someone is complaining they aren’t doing anything about it. I am. I teach and have taught for many years.

 

[st_lucy]

Let’s define our terms. “Homeschooling” as I understand it, is Mom reading the textbook to the child at the kitchen table, and the child doing the worksheets, until it’s time to do the housework/go play. Sometimes, mother and child will go on a field trip to the art gallery or museum, but again, the only communication for the child is with the mother - the mother mediates any communication with the museum staff, etc.

What is your definition of home schooling?

WOW! Either you are playing coy here or you are really really ignorant on what actually happens in homeschooling. I must say this is this most ignorant thing I have ever heard someone say about homeschoolers. Homeschoolers can communicate very well with both adults and children of all ages Maybe you need to open your mind and look around you when you start stating falsehoods about what you obviously have no clue about.

 

[StrawberryJam]

To all of you CCD teachers out there, that offer your valuable time, knowledge of your life’s study of your faith, and simply your willingness to go out - go forth and do what you do…

Even as a non believer- I can see great fortitude and courage in this very act you do.

I close, asking that people who don’t charge forward with such bravery sit back and ask if they are being fair to these good people.

And, if they have ever offered themselves “up” this way with the entire community, not just their own apples of their eyes.

 

[rayne89]

Let’s define our terms. “Homeschooling” as I understand it, is Mom reading the textbook to the child at the kitchen table, and the child doing the worksheets, until it’s time to do the housework/go play. Sometimes, mother and child will go on a field trip to the art gallery or museum, but again, the only communication for the child is with the mother - the mother mediates any communication with the museum staff, etc.

What is your definition of home schooling?

Wow that was really horrible. Truly you have no idea what homeschooling is at all. My daughter was homeschooled for 10 years -now she is in a public high school, and doing very well. You make it sound like the mother is giving a sub-par education and one that is secondary in importance to housework and play time. You also imply the mother trying to isolate/control every aspect of the child’s life and doesn’t even allow the child to communicate with others.

Are you being sarcastic or did I miss something?

 

[jmcrae]

Oh, you’ve got to be kidding me…

Let’s see: the education of a child primarily by their parents in their own home (be it at a desk, at the table, on the floor, outside, or the laundry room). This can include instruction by their parents, other parents in the community, and (occasionally) others, field-trips, co-ops, sports, drama productions, and various social activities internal and external to the homeschool group. The schedule is usually flexible so as to accommodate the children’s interests, activities, and even proficiencies in various subjects.

The socialization that the homeschool child receives during “school hours” differs qualitatively with the school system as well. Schools, in general, have a strong horizontal element to the socialization: children socialize with their so called peers who happen to have been born within a year of their birthdays (unless they were held back, or in rare cases pushed ahead a grade). Homeschoolers, because the interaction takes place much more at the family level, interact with children of all ages, as well as adults. It is not strange to see a homeschooled child having a fully engaging conversation with an adult on their current project (in whatever their field of interest might be).

Your limited conception of homeschooling is so rare, that it would be fair to say that it does not exist.

Indeed - I stand corrected.

I am thinking that if the home-school group were to meet on parish property, instead of at someone’s house, they’d look no different than any of the Catechism classes or Sacramental Prep classes that I’ve been coordinating for the past two years - children of various ages, accompanied by their parents, learning together because of their shared common interest.

 

[Middleman]

I did, I was told that Faith First was the one approved by the Bishop.I bet there isn’t. But after one letter, 3 emails and two conversations with various people, I was told that either he attends or he doesn’t get Confirmed.Yes, they should, but most parents see CCD as babysitting. Free babysitting if you don’t charge for your program. I see this every time someone tries to drop their child off when there isn’t CCD. The parents I see get upset, some saying, but I was going out to grocery shop or I was going out for coffee. What do I do now? Um, take your child?Bet she doesn’t have her job long if she does that.
This year we have a class with twice the number of students then most other classes. But we don’t have another room for another class, so we can’t break the class in two. The Pastor told the teacher that she has to take more students if more register. See they are afraid that the parents will never come back to church or CCD if we turn them away until the new church is open, 6 weeks from now.

They would never cancel a class. They have never canceled a class.

It seems that people that feel we should all love to send our children to these classes, all have wonderful programs, wonderful teachers and enough room for small classes.

Our church doesn’t. Last year we had over 60 in the Confirmation class. This year there are 25 in one 4th grade class. We have a teacher that isn’t Catholic.

Protestant churches like to have any child attend their programs. Some even send buses out to get kids to come to Sunday schools. They have youth groups for all children, not only for people who attend their church. My teenagers attend one. Meanwhile, our church has nothing. The last time we had CCD one complaint was that too many who weren’t faithful Catholics were using it as just another after school activity. The next year the program, then, died. The homeschoolers were doing their own thing and insisted on not participating.

5 years later there are very few families left bringing their children to church. The old people are dying off. The church is diminishing.

 

[CDNowak]

Indeed - I stand corrected.

I am thinking that if the home-school group were to meet on parish property, instead of at someone’s house, they’d look no different than any of the Catechism classes or Sacramental Prep classes that I’ve been coordinating for the past two years - children of various ages, accompanied by their parents, learning together because of their shared common interest.

So why should homeschoolers be forced to repeat what they have already achieved?

 

[leonie]

I still think that people don’t understand that homeschool kids get catechesis in their regular curriculum just like Catholic school kids. It’s really no different.

If I said, why do parish school parents hate ccd, everyone would say, “no, they don’t hate it, it’s just that the kids all ready get their religious ed during the week.”

see? same thing.

If the pastor or DRE asks to review the material, that’s fine with me.

 

[Janet1983]

I am the Asst DRE at what I consider a typical parish. As a general rule, we have all of our 2nd grade/1st Communicants prepare in the faith formation program. In my five years here we made only one exception. That exception was for a student in a very devout family. This one year the family had a number of issues with another sibling and it worked out better for the family. Mom has been a catechist and the family regularly attends daily mass together as well as are frequently in line for confession together.

Our Diocese does not exclude at home catechism for sacraments, but it puts full responsibility for determining readiness on the shoulders of the Pastor or his “delegate”. Knowing the family well would make the decision much easier.

We generally do not react well to being told .

You kind of make it sound as if you could make people do anything and force them… I was not baptized in my village (but in the city it belongs to) because of something like that… You cannot force anybody to do anything and not reacting well isn’t going to help…
There are quite a few churches out there…

 

[jmcrae]

So why should homeschoolers be forced to repeat what they have already achieved?

Why can’t they take the lead, and show by example how it’s done?

 

[mlchance]

Why can’t they take the lead, and show by example how it’s done?

It seems to me that parents who take such an active hand in their children’s education are taking the lead and showing by example one perfectly acceptable way that it is done.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[CDNowak]

Why can’t they take the lead, and show by example how it’s done?

They are rarely given the opportunity to take the lead. They are asked to become cogs in the established program.

 

[puzzleannie]

since this thread has degeneratd into the usual mudslinging against the concept of home-schooler per se and their self-defense, and we have long since left off discussing the specific topic of OP, namely the parish responsibility for sacramental preparation, I make a motion the thread be closed. do I hear a second.

 

[CDNowak]

since this thread has degeneratd into the usual mudslinging against the concept of home-schooler per se and their self-defense, and we have long since left off discussing the specific topic of OP, namely the parish responsibility for sacramental preparation, I make a motion the thread be closed. do I hear a second.

I counter that while it has strayed a little (very little over 10 pages), it is still building the relevant base for the argument that the parish should be locus of all formation. Yes, we are waiting for one side to actually present an argument to that effect, but they just learned what homeschooling is, so we should give them a chance to respond.

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PS That and I am against most moderation on principle, so long as the debate can be contained and reasonably civil let it go on.