"homosexual person" myth or Truth

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To quote more from Jimmy Akin - Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers:

"A reader writes:

This is regarding “looking at girls”.I am very clear that obviously pornography is a grave matter.

I also am clear that deliberately engaging in lustful thoughts, lustful desires, or trying to arouse yourself (outside marriage) with full knowledge and full consent is also mortal sin. Of course thoughts without these aspects are either venial or not a sin.

What I still struggle with is the question of “deliberately looking at an attractive or shapely girl”. And liking to do so.

I had understood that one could deliberately look at an attractive girl and admire her beauty -even the beauty of her form- and that the non-sexual pleasure one finds in seeing her beauty and shape was not sinful to consent to and one could just ignore any “reactions of concupiscence” that happen.

Of course one must take care …and know yourself …as well as at times use custody of the eyes –particularly if she is very immodestly dressed.

Also that one could even look at a work of art that is nude etc (that is not lustfully done –that shows the dignity of the person) and admire the form and beauty and ignore any “reactions of concupiscence”.

Is this treating a girl as an object? Am I wrong in doing this? Is it sinful?"

(Jimmy now responds):"In this context, treating someone “as an object” means improperly treating a person as an instrument of sexual gratification and thus not properly recognizing the dignity of the person.

There are also other ways one can (non-sexually) “object”-ify a person, e.g., treating a spouse as merely a means of getting certain tasks done (breadwinning, household management, whatever).

In general, treating someone merely as a means to an end and not respecting the fundamental dignity of the person results in the objectification of that person. Sexual objectification is just one species in a larger genus.

But you know what* doesn’t *belong to this genus?

Recognizing a person’s good points.

If someone is beautiful or handsome or smart or prudent or a good breadwinner or a good household manager or a good square dance caller or has any other good points, it’s fine to recognize and appreciate those facts.

If they are manifest, it would even be contrary to reason not to do so.

So recognizing and appreciating the beauty of the human form–in general or in a specific case–is not a sin.

At least you couldn’t guess it from the statues and paintings that the folks at the Vatican have all over the place. They sure seem to be on board with this idea.

I mean, just look at the Sistine Chapel!

Just look at the Last Judgment!

And this is where they elect popes!

So it seems to me that one is on pretty safe ground saying that it’s okay and not-automatically-objectifying if you recognize and appreciate physical beauty or any other good attribute that a person has.

It* becomes* objectifying if you reduce the person’s worth to just their good or useful qualities.

Of course, in the area of appreciating physical beauty–especially of the opposite sex–we have to be careful…

(There are) different levels of moral risk, and the greater the peril, the more stringent efforts must be taken to avoid it or escape from it.

Because people are different and subject to different levels of temptation, they will have to determine based on their own self-knowledge and personal history what situations are too dangerous for them to allow themselves to be in.

For some–particularly males at a particular stage of life–even looking at artistic representations …may be too much.

As normal in risk management–which is what avoiding temptation is, since it’s not possible to completely eliminate the risk of temptation (given the mind’s ability to produce temptation on its own)–one must avoid two extremes: under-estimating the risk that a situation poses and over-estimating it.

For most people the laxist approach is the greater danger, which is why Jesus told us to seek the narrow path.

For other people, particularly those subject to scrupulous tendencies, the rigorist approach is a danger.

Neither approach is what we are called to.

What one must do is evaluate the risk a particular course of action poses for one and act accordingly.

In some cases temptation will arise despite one’s efforts. That’s the nature of risk. As long as the risk isn’t zero–and it never is in this life–sometimes temptation will arise.

The thing to do when that happens is relax, ignore the temptation, and move on to something else.

The “relax” part is important, because if one allows oneself to become anxious about temptation then it only reinforces the temptation.

Temptation is deprived of its power if you refuse to get anxious about it and simply move on.

Because I’m not the reader, I can’t say precisely what courses of action are too risky in his case, but I can say that it’s not sinful to simply recognize and appreciate beauty. (As opposed to dwelling on or studiously contemplating the details of a particular person’s physical form, which is going to increase risk.)

I can say that it is not sinful to be exposed to any and all levels of non-zero risk. (Zero risk of temptation is impossible in this life.)

And I can say that if he tries to instantly avert his eyes from every single pretty girl he sees then he will foster an anxiety about temptation that will actually feed the temptation he is seeking to minimize.

The better thing to do is avoid situations that are known to be dangerous (i.e., that pose a significant risk of significant temptation) and to otherwise relax and move on when temptation does appear."

End Jimmy.

Hope the post fits this time…had to cut.
 
There is no need to do so.

It* does **not *matter.
It may not matter to some if the Magisterium presents what is false as truth in the name of the Lord’s
Church I believe it matters to the Lord.
One scientist can disagree with another or one study with another.

It does not matter here.
There are not multiple inconsistent views in science that are true. Science seeks the truth
political science promotes an agenda. The truth always matters.
It is important to read it all with in the context of the total teaching of the Church.
What Church teaching justifies the Magisterium to claim the mythical “homosexual person” real?

God bless
 
What Church teaching justifies the Magisterium to claim the mythical “homosexual person” real?

God bless
Again the difficulty here is not with that Magisterium…but with the eye the person who is misreading what the Church is Teaching. The eye that is over-investing a phrase with meaning that it does NOT have.

Please go read all those documents (again if you have read them already) - one must understand what the Church is saying and not saying. Then one can understand one mistook the phrase to mean what it was not intended to mean.
 
What Church teaching justifies the Magisterium to claim the mythical “homosexual person” real?
Like asking

What Church teaching justifies the Magisterium to claim the mythical “handicapped person” real?

As others have pointed out. The Church is using that phrase in a similar way for those persons with handicaps. (2276 “handicapped persons” should be helped to lead lives as normal as possible)

Your over reading.

One must read what the Church teaches in the way she intends it to be read.
 
Again the difficulty here is not with that Magisterium…but with the eye the person who is misreading what the Church is Teaching. The eye that is over-investing a phrase with meaning that it does NOT have.

Please go read all those documents (again if you have read them already) - one must understand what the Church is saying and not saying. Then one can understand one mistook the phrase to mean what it was not intended to mean.
What do you believe the Magisterium is saying when they claim some experience an exclusive SSA?
Please include as much context as you would like.

God bless
 
What do you believe the Magisterium is saying when they claim some experience an exclusive SSA?
Please include as much context as you would like.

God bless
You read there in the Catechism what the Church teaches and in the other documents - those are rather long documents - go read them so you can see all the different aspects of the difficulty.

The Church is discussing that section of the Catechism the moral questions there in relation to Chastity (not getting into this or that theory of the empirical sciences)

The Catechism is* covering all the possibilities*.

If person D does not experience any other attraction that to their same gender - what are they do do? Follow what the Church Teaches. It applies to them.

If person A experiences some attraction to their own gender and some attraction to the opposite gender - what are they to do?* Follow what the Church Teaches. It applies to them.*

No one can say “hey it does not apply to me cause I only experience SSA” or “I experience both…” The teachings regarding such apply to all those who experience such.

The Church is not mistaken. It is a personal subjective framing of things and investing meaning in the use of a phrase -one that has been used now for *many *years by the Church that is mistaken here.

The Church has very long pastoral experience here - and such is reflected in the Catechism and her other documents. Such as:

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

By the CDF

It is important to read it all with in the context of the total teaching of the Church.
 
What Church teaching justifies the Magisterium to claim the mythical “homosexual person” real?
Like asking…

What Church teaching justifies the Magisterium to claim the mythical “handicapped person” real?

As others have pointed out. The Church is using that phrase in a similar way for those persons with handicaps. (2276 “handicapped persons” should be helped to lead lives as normal as possible)

Your over reading.

One must read what the Church teaches in the way she intends it to be read.
 
What do you believe the Magisterium is saying when they claim some experience an exclusive SSA?
Please include as much context as you would like.

God bless
You read there in the Catechism what the Church teaches and in the other documents - those are rather long documents - go read them so you can see all the different aspects of the difficulty.

The Church is discussing that section of the Catechism the moral questions there in relation to Chastity (not getting into the details of this or that theory of the empirical sciences)

The Catechism is* covering all the possibilities*.

If person D does not experience any other attraction that to their same gender - what are they do do? Follow what the Church Teaches. It applies to them.

If person A experiences some attraction to their own gender and some attraction to the opposite gender - what are they to do?* Follow what the Church Teaches. It applies to them.*

No one can say “hey it does not apply to me cause I only experience SSA” or “I experience both…” The teachings regarding such apply to all those who experience such.

The Church is not mistaken. It is a personal subjective framing of things and investing meaning in the use of a phrase -one that has been used now for *many *years by the Church that is mistaken here.

The Church has very long pastoral experience here - and such is reflected in the Catechism and her other documents. Such as…

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

By the CDF

It is important to read it all with in the context of the total teaching of the Church.
 
…The Catechism is* covering all the possibilities*.

If person D does not **experience **any other attraction that to their same gender - what are they do do? Follow what the Church Teaches. It applies to them.

If person A **experiences some attraction to their own gender and some attraction to the opposite gender - what are they to do? Follow what the Church Teaches. It applies to them.

No one can say “hey it does not apply to me cause I only **experience **SSA” or “I **experience **both…” The teachings regarding such apply to all those who **experience **such.
Correct Bookcat. It is interesting that the actual objection of jjr9 is not to the part of the CCC text which is actually teaching moral truths, but rather to words that frame the spectrum of circumstances that give context to the teaching by accepting the overwhelmingly held position (ie. sexual attraction is on a spectrum) of those secular specialists who deal in this area.

jjrd questions whether it is possible for a person to experience attraction to persons of the same sex and no attraction to persons of the opposite sex. Well - rather a lot of people believe so on the basis of their personal experience, the personal and documented testimony of others or numerous professional studies and investigations. But is the Church ***teaching ***something on this point? No - it has neither motivation nor competence to teach on this point.

I bolded “experience” in the previous paragraph because this word is important. If a person honestly reports his experience - how is this to be denied? If an honest person tells us what they experience - then how on earth do we say, “no, I’m sure that’s not what you experience”. And it should further be noted that the Church makes no statement that what is experienced will forever persist. Should some day (for whatever reasons) a person recognise a different experience, then what the Church does teach about moral behaviour remains.

To those who are uncomfortable that the term “homosexual person” unduly classifies a person, I just point out that it is simply shorthand for “those who ***experience ***an exclusive or predominant attraction to persons of the same sex”.
 
Yes, we are either using different assumptions about intent as I said, or we disagree about what lust is.
In any case, all has been said and my head hurts from going in circles.
Take a couple ibuprofen, friend. I did.
To be clear, the only “sense” to refer to lust as I did is as one of the seven deadly sins.
Fine.

And such could be taken in a few senses.

Both in the sense of “desire” that is not wanted…not consented to…but which “happens” to one. …].
Lust is also that disordered desire that can happen within a person.
No. Only one sense applies to lust. Lust is always sinful.

The inclination to illicit sex is not lust. Lust is never an “unwanted desire.” Lust, unlike sexual temptation, does not just “happen” to one. Lust is always willed.

Lust only and always follows from consent.

Lust is not a “tendency.” Lust is the vehement disorder of sexual desires. One who has allowed oneself to become vehemently disordered in their sexual desires is in a state of objective sin.
The definition of “term” as used in listing the seven deadly sins is a word used to describe a specific thing.

One confuses the term by denying the word’s specificity by suggesting it has multiple meanings as “in that sense of the term” implies. There is no other sense of the term “lust” other than one of the deadly sins.

As I posted before, the “temptation to lust” is not “lust.” The “temptation to anger” is not “anger.” Anger and lust are both willed sins.

To suggest that the sin and the temptation to it are identical in name creates confusion.

To the OP’s topic, the unchecked perduring homosexual orientation is evil. Just as the unchecked perduring adulterous inclination is evil. Neither attitude may abide in a child of God.
Some posters cannot admit to an error but try to obfuscate with multiple incoherent posts. Others just call you names.
 
People who belong to out-groups (which means they are not a member of your own in-group) are often thought of in uniform ways. So it is not unusual for heterosexuals to think of homosexuals as participating in a uniform homosexual lifestyle, especially since many straight people do not associate with or know gay people at a personal level. The reverse is not so much the case since more gay people are aware of differences between straight people’s lives, either due to direct association or common knowledge of the mainstream culture.

This is not only a sexual thing. People who do not know Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans, Jews also tend to categorize members of each of these groups in a uniform, homogeneous way and associate each with a common lifestyle.
I certainly agree that people tend to imagine other groups to be more homogeneous then they really are. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t really things which tend to be more prevalent in a particular group. For instance with at least male homosexuals it seems to me there is a tendency towards promiscuity. This seems to be supported by studies as well.

And certainly the homosexuals themselves seem to portray a certain lifestyle when they host their pride events. Men in drag and leather seems to represent their community in their own mind.
 
Some posters cannot admit to an error but try to obfuscate with multiple incoherent posts. .
Quoting snippets of a posts out of context - while leaving aside all the rest of the posts which cover many varied aspects - is yes to create “incoherency”.

The posts must be read in order and in context.
 
Like asking…

What Church teaching justifies the Magisterium to claim the mythical “handicapped person” real?

As others have pointed out. The Church is using that phrase in a similar way for those persons with handicaps. (2276 “handicapped persons” should be helped to lead lives as normal as possible)

Your over reading.

One must read what the Church teaches in the way she intends it to be read.
The Church does not define anyone as a “handicapped person” and a temptation and a handicap
are not of the same nature.

I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church. I believe that the Magisterium has an obligation
to protect the Sacred Deposit of Faith and no authority to change that Faith. I believe that the Sacred
Deposit of Faith has always seen SSA as a temptation, sinful if dwelt on, SS behavior as a sin and
has never accepted the mythical "homosexual person as real.

Cardinal Marks believes “homosexual relationships have “worth,” a worth that must be recognized by
the Catholic Church” and “the Church should support “regulating” homosexual partnerships. “We as church
cannot be against it.”” ( Ref: lifesitenews.com/opinion/cardinal-reinhard-marx-vs.-cardinal-and-saint-peter-damian-do-homosexual-un ).

Do you believe the Magisterium should adopt Cardinal Marks’s views? Cardinal Marks’s views have as much
connection to the Sacred Deposit of Faith as the mythical “homosexual person” being real.

I believe people should have Faith in what the Church claims to be true. Unfortunately in the this
case the Magisterium is failing the Lord and the Lord’s Church.

God bless
 
The Church does not define anyone as a “handicapped person” and a temptation and a handicap
are not of the same nature.

I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church. I believe that the Magisterium has an obligation
to protect the Sacred Deposit of Faith and no authority to change that Faith.
(giant snip)

I believe people should have Faith in what the Church claims to be true. Unfortunately in the this
case the Magisterium is failing the Lord and the Lord’s Church.

God bless
Can you see the contradiction in what you claim to believe, and what you actually do believe?

I see that you have standards for the Magisterium.
In regard to the Magisterium, the faithful have a duty to employ
  1. good will
  2. good listening skills
  3. a prayerful attitude
Prior to your comprehension of Church teaching, **you have an obligation as a Catholic to give your good faith obedience to the Magisterium. **
This discussion goes in six different ways about words and their meanings, but this is the heart of your difficulty, not the homosexual person.
 
Do you believe the Magisterium should adopt Cardinal Marks’s views? s
I do not get into the views of this or that Cardinal about the matter (and I may not even know if an article is correct in its reporting about what a writer in another language said or did not say).

I point to the Teachings of the Catholic Church per se.
 
the mythical “homosexual person” being real.
You have been answered by several people here…your misreading the Magisterium.

Therein lies a good deal of your difficulty.

And furthermore your using a fallacious approach - even here in your wording.

Including “begging the question”.
Your simply mistaken in your over reading of the phrase and your approach.

The Church is correct in her approach and her Teaching.

Again please read again carefully.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14378721&postcount=183

and Rau has some interesting things forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14379141&postcount=184

Your concerned about phantoms.
 
Can you see the contradiction in what you claim to believe, and what you actually do believe?

I see that you have standards for the Magisterium.
In regard to the Magisterium, the faithful have a duty to employ
  1. good will
  2. good listening skills
  3. a prayerful attitude
Prior to your comprehension of Church teaching, **you have an obligation as a Catholic to give your good faith obedience to the Magisterium. **
This discussion goes in six different ways about words and their meanings, but this is the heart of your difficulty, not the homosexual person.
I believe no one is called to a blind Faith. I have sought direction and clarification from the Magisterium.
It has been the Magisterium that has shunned me for reason I do not know. I believe this shunning is not
in harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith.

Perhaps you could ask your Bishop to have the Magisterium respond to my concern.

God bless
 
I believe no one is called to a blind Faith. I have sought direction and clarification from the Magisterium.
It has been the Magisterium that has shunned me for reason I do not know. I believe this shunning is not
in harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith.

Perhaps you could ask your Bishop to have the Magisterium respond to my concern.

God bless
Why would you expect the Magisterium to respond to you, amid the myriad concerns of the Church, when all you have to do is give your obedience? People are being martyred every day for God’s sake (literally).

Does obedience frighten you?
 
I believe no one is called to a blind Faith.
I have not read one post in this thread that suggested this.
I have sought direction and clarification from the Magisterium.
It has been the Magisterium that has shunned me for reason I do not know.I believe this shunning is not in harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith.
Not responding is not the same a shunning.
Perhaps you could ask your Bishop to have the Magisterium respond to my concern.
God bless
Why would anyone assist in the propagation of an error?
 
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