"homosexual person" myth or Truth

  • Thread starter Thread starter jjr9
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
jjr9 said:
I believe no one is called to a blind Faith. I have sought direction and clarification from the Magisterium.
It has been the Magisterium that has shunned me for reason I do not know. I believe this shunning is not
in harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith.

Perhaps you could ask your Bishop to have the Magisterium respond to my concern.

God bless
Click to expand...
The Church is very clear in the documents.

They are not “shunning” you. They simply cannot answer every question that people send and this one is really a non-issue.

What is happening is that your at phrases that have been used by the Magisterium of decades now - and investing them with a meaning they do not have.

Your misreading the texts. Reading* into *them.

What needs to happen is to ask yourself - hey if the Church has been using this language for decades…approved various Popes …etc etc perhaps the difficulty I am seeing is not there? Perhaps I am reading into the phrases the Church uses something that does not exist. Perhaps it is is my framing …that is off?

And to accept what everyone is telling you…your misreading the text.
 
goout said:
Why would you expect the Magisterium to respond to you, amid the myriad concerns of the Church, when all you have to do is give your obedience? People are being martyred every day for God’s sake (literally).

Does obedience frighten you?
Click to expand...
Matthew 25:45 says:
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you
did not do for me.’

For the Magisterium to reject my concern without explanation as to why my observation is
wrong; is the Magisterium not also rejecting the Lord? I believe without Grace from the Lord anyone
is susceptible to any temptation each of us has our own life circumstances and Satan will tailor our
temptations to best serve his purpose; to keep souls from the Lord.

I believe St Paul states quite clearly what drives “LGBT people” to their confusion in
Rom 1:25:
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie
Code: 
I believe Satan is a compelling liar and the Magisterium does not have authority to present
what is false as true in the name of the Lord’s Church.

I believe that for many Satan is an abstract, I believe that Satan is an active participant in the
world. I believe it doesn’t matter to Satan which temptation causes us to fall from Grace with the Lord,
no matter the apparent gravity of the temptation I believe ultimately we cannot resist any temptation;
without the Grace the Lord is willing to give but will not force us to take.

The good news is that I already know the end result the Lord will have the Magisterium
correct it’s error in a time and manor as the Lord sees fit. Please help and serve the Lord.

Does the truth frighten you?

God bless
 
jjr9 said:
For the Magisterium to reject my concern without explanation as to why my observation is
wrong; is the Magisterium not also rejecting the Lord?
Click to expand...
The Magisterium cannot respond to every question. And this one is really a non issue.

Rest assured the Magisterium is NOT rejecting the Lord!!
jjr9 said:
I have sought direction and clarification from the Magisterium.
It has been the Magisterium that has shunned me for reason I do not know. I believe this shunning is not
in harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith.

Perhaps you could ask your Bishop to have the Magisterium respond to my concern.
Click to expand...
The Church is very clear in the documents.

They are not “shunning” you. They simply cannot answer every question that people send and this one is really a non-issue.

What is happening is that your at phrases that have been used by the Magisterium of decades now - and investing them with a meaning they do not have.

Your misreading the texts. Reading* into *them.

What needs to happen is to ask yourself - hey if the Church has been using this language for decades…approved various Popes …etc etc perhaps the difficulty I am seeing is not there? Perhaps I am reading into the phrases the Church uses something that does not exist. Perhaps it is is my framing …that is off?

And to accept what everyone is telling you…your misreading the text.
 
jjr9 said:
The Church does not define anyone as a “handicapped person” and a temptation and a handicap
are not of the same nature.

I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church. I believe that the Magisterium has an obligation
to protect the Sacred Deposit of Faith and no authority to change that Faith. I believe that the Sacred
Deposit of Faith has always seen SSA as a temptation, sinful if dwelt on, SS behavior as a sin and
has never accepted the mythical "homosexual person as real.
Click to expand...
In your opinion, has the Deposit of Faith seen Opposite Sex Attraction as a temptation?
 
jjr9 said:
…I believe St Paul states quite clearly what drives “LGBT people” to their confusion in
Rom 1:25:
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie
Click to expand...
Does this also describe what causes a good and faithful catholic, who experiences SSA but dreads it and prays everyday to be relieved of his disordered attraction? The person whose personal effort and prayer are directed to protect his chastity, and to begging to feel “normal”, and to experience the same interest in girls (say) as his “normal” colleagues. Is this how Paul explains their experience and confusion? Or does it explain why the child of a normal upbringing and normal family inexplicably is utterly convinced his male body is not in accord with the overwhelming internal sense of being female, and as he matures experiences the mental anguish of dysphoria? Is this to what St Paul refers? Are all these experiences just temptations, or is it perhaps that these experiences establish the basis to be tempted in certain ways? What truth of God did these people - good and faithful Catholics all - exchange for what lie, that drove them to their situation? So far, a situation without sin.
 
I’ve had gay friends who had never been attracted to women. I take them at their word that they are strictly SSA. I’ve met some male homosexual persons who feel as repulsed by the thought of romantic/sexual intimacies with women as some male heterosexual persons are by the thought of romantic/sexual intimacies with men.

And if you think political science is any more or less agenda-driven than any other “science” then you evidently misunderstand political science.

Maybe some posters are fighting SSA within themselves and are trying to convince themselves that they don’t exist.
 
ShanPO said:
In your opinion, has the Deposit of Faith seen Opposite Sex Attraction as a temptation?
Click to expand...
I believe the Sacred Deposit of Faith tells us that OSA when properly pursued is part of the
Lord’s plan for creation and pleasing to the Lord. I believe the Sacred Deposit of Faith tells
us that OSA when improperly pursued is a temptation and displeasing to the Lord. I believe
the Sacred Deposit of Faith tells us that SSA is an abomination for the Lord that is only an
intrinsically evil temptation that never leads to the Lord.

Do you have reason to believe anyone experiences an exclusive SSA?

God bless
 
jjr9 said:
I believe the Sacred Deposit of Faith tells us that OSA when properly pursued is part of the
Lord’s plan for creation and pleasing to the Lord.
Click to expand...
Well yes - if you mean here that marriage is part of the Lords Plan for creation and is good when lived as it ought.
jjr9 said:
I believe the Sacred Deposit of Faith tells
us that OSA when improperly pursued is a temptation and displeasing to the Lord.
Click to expand...
I think you would agree upon re-reading such - that the it is not a temptation but a sin. To “improperly pursue” would mean sins of lust etc…

I think you meant to say that there can be a temptation to lust that is of course not to be consented to.
jjr9 said:
I believe
the Sacred Deposit of Faith tells us that SSA is an abomination for the Lord that is only an
intrinsically evil temptation that never leads to the Lord.
Click to expand...
Yes it is disordered. The Church though does not reduce such to only the word - temptation.

And actually -like other difficulties in life - and like other temptations as well- such can in a way lead to greater holiness.

Virtue is tried and even increased by its opposite.

One is tempted to impatience…and can by ones reaction …increase in patience.

And difficultes …sufferings of all sorts…can be born with Christ (and with his help).

Catechism

“These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to *unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross *the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2358

Temptation be
 
jjr9 said:
Which persons do not have a condition that this does not apply?
Are we not all sinners?

God bless
Click to expand...
(Well…Mary!..)

But yes - and that is the point.

We are all to increase in holiness…and yes that can involve our difficulties and temptations -no matter what they be.

The Point there is that yes - they too are to grow ever more holy. Like other Christians.
 
jjr9 said:
I believe the Sacred Deposit of Faith tells us that OSA when properly pursued is part of the
Lord’s plan for creation and pleasing to the Lord. I believe the Sacred Deposit of Faith tells
us that OSA when improperly pursued is a temptation and displeasing to the Lord. I believe
the Sacred Deposit of Faith tells us that SSA is an abomination for the Lord that is only an
intrinsically evil temptation that never leads to the Lord.

Do you have reason to believe anyone experiences an exclusive SSA?

God bless
Click to expand...
So if someone says to you “I experience only SSA, but chose to live a chaste life according to the teachings of the Church” how would you respond to that?
 
ShanPO said:
So if someone says to you “I experience only SSA, but chose to live a chaste life according to the teachings of the Church” how would you respond to that?
Click to expand...
I would say well done. If they asked my view on exclusive SSA I would tell them I don’t
believe it exists. If they wanted to discuss the particulars of their sexuality with me I would
tell them others are better suited for that than me. If they still wanted to have a conversation
I would ask what put them in the place they are at and continue from there.

My concern is not sexuality my concern is the Magisterium claiming what is false to be true
in the name of the Lord’s Church. Sexuality is only due to the nature of the Magisterium’s
false claim. I believe it cruel for the Magisterium to put a stumbling block in front of confused
individuals to believe they are something that doesn’t exist.

God bless
 
jjr9 said:
my concern is the Magisterium claiming what is false to be true
in the name of the Lord’s Church.
God bless
Click to expand...
Then you have no concern.

For that is not what the Church is doing there as has been noted.
jjr9 said:
I believe it cruel for the Magisterium to put a stumbling block in front of confused
individuals to believe they are something that doesn’t exist.
Click to expand...
And the Magisterium is NOT putting such a stumbling block …

Rather there has been here in this thread a* reading into* the words of the Catechism …what does not exist.
 
jjr9 said:
Sexuality is only due to the nature of the Magisterium’s
false claim. I believe it cruel for the Magisterium to put a stumbling block in front of confused
individuals to believe they are something that doesn’t exist.

God bless
Click to expand...
Ahh…:newidea: I finally understand your position. After all these posts, I finally understand it.

Sexuality is meaningless because the concept wouldn’t exist if not for the Magesterium. If not for the Magesterium’s use of homosexual person, there would be no need to define sexuality because we are all the same sexuality because God created us male and female with a mutual attraction for one another.
  1. You submit that exclusive SSA does not exist.
  2. The Magisterium uses the phrase “homosexual person.”
  3. You believe that the Magisterium is wrong for using that description/label for people.
  4. The harm created by the Magisterium in doing so is that people with SSA will be led to believe that exclusive SSA exists.
  5. These people, thusly misled, will have an incorrect view of themselves.
  6. Everyone who trusts the Magisterium will also be misled into believing that exclusive SSA exists, and therefore permit, eventually, widespread acceptance of SS lifestyles.
This can all be resolved: Exclusive SSA exists, no matter how much you want it not to exist. See? All done, and before lunch. 🙂
 
Bookcat said:
Then you have no concern.

For that is not what the Church is doing there as has been noted.

And the Magisterium is NOT putting such a stumbling block …

Rather there has been here in this thread a* reading into* the words of the Catechism …what does not exist.
Click to expand...
Do you believe the Magisterium does not claim a group of people experience an exclusive
SSA?

CCC 2357: ( vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm )

“Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive
or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.”

If you do I believe you are mistaken.

God bless
 
jjr9 said:
Can you share?

It is not in harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith. I believe that is why the Lord gave
us the Sacred Deposit of Faith and the Lord’s Church; to help discern what the truth is.

God bless
Click to expand...
How is it not in harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith. I know that you like the quote from Saint Paul
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie
Click to expand...
but I don’t see that as excluding exclusive SSA.
 
jjr9 said:
Do you believe the Magisterium does not claim a group of people experience an exclusive
SSA?

CCC 2357: ( vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm )

“Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive
or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.”

If you do I believe you are mistaken.

God bless
Click to expand...
I will repeat (do try to read all the posts…I know there are many…I miss some too)

The Church is not Teaching about questions or matters of the empirical sciences here.

The Church is teaching about - what? Moral life.

About the 6th Commandment. About LIFE IN CHRIST (title of the whole section).

The Catechism is* covering all the possibilities*.

If person D does not* experience* any other attraction that to their same gender - what are they do do? Follow what the Church Teaches.* It applies to them.*

If person A* experiences* some attraction to their own gender and some attraction to the opposite gender - what are they to do? Follow what the Church Teaches.* It applies to them.*

Or to put it differently - either person “says” they do not or do…it does not matter here.

A key word there in the CCC is “experience”.

No one can say “hey it does not apply to me cause I only experience SSA” or “I experience both…” The teachings regarding such apply to **all **those who experience such.

One cannot debate with a person about what he personally “experiences”.

The point of the discussion in the Catechism is the morality and the call to virtue. That applies to them all (and to us all too) no matter what a person may say they experience.

The Church is not mistaken. Your difficulty is that your taking your personal subjective framing of things and investing meaning in the use of a phrase -one that has been used now for *many *years by the Church that is mistaken here. That is not being asserted.

Like taking Sacred Scripture where Jesus says if your eye causes you to sin -pluck it out and protesting that he is telling others to mutilate themselves…

One must disabuse oneself of that view by referring to the Church and finding that is not what is meant.

The Teachings of the Church - like those of Scripture must be understood in the way they are intended. What is actually being asserted. Or not.

Your difficulty is your importing something into the text that is not there. Reading into it.

The Church is teaching there about morality - not questions of empirical science…about this or that evidence or theory.

Persons stated experience -does not change the morality and the call to virtue.
 
jjr9 said:
Do you believe the Magisterium does not claim a group of people experience an exclusive
SSA?

CCC 2357: ( vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm )

“Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive
or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex.”

If you do I believe you are mistaken.

God bless
Click to expand...
If the word “exclusive” were removed, would you still have issue with this?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top