"homosexual person" myth or Truth

[on_the_hill]

I have a homosexual person on staff. Think of the money I’ll save when I stop paying him because he doesn’t exist.

 

[Penitent_Son]

Aside from an assertion with no proof, what evidence do you have that everyone is capable of OSA?

I already asked that and several other questions that the OP could not answer.

They (the OP) can’t accept a fact, so they call it a lie. They can’t accept someone’s truth, so they declare that God didn’t lead the person to that truth.

The same people keep repeating the same things over and over, not just in this thread but in the other three threads, as well, to which the OP repeats the same stale responses.

When you keep making the same repetitions in response to their repetitions you cease being helpful and become part of the madness.

I pray that the OP finds peace.

 

[jjr9]

I pray that the OP finds peace.

Thank you for your prayers I will put you in mine and hope you find peace as well.

God bless

 

[Bookcat]

I believe that the Lord only created male and female persons

As does the Magisterium of the Catholic Church!

(*in so far as human persons are concerned …)

 

[Peter_J]

I keep trying to help these threads along! Here’s my latest go!

Not me, I think I should just pray for everyone in this sandbox… Well, okay admittedly I’ve now given in to peer pressure by posting this post. I guess I should pray for myself too.

 

[meltzerboy]

I have a homosexual person on staff. Think of the money I’ll save when I stop paying him because he doesn’t exist.

LOL Unfortunately perhaps, even among some clinical psychologists, there is the belief in what is called pseudo-homosexuality, which means a person thinks s/he is homosexual but is not.

 

[jjr9]

In your next post before praying for me you lamented my not answering your questions. I presume the ones here:

Can you provide a moral reason for denying that they do exist? One that isn’t self-serving?

Subterfuge may work with others, not me. I asked why it was important TO YOU that the “homosexual person” not exist.

I do not deny that anyone exists I believe that exclusive SSA does not exist. What is important to me is that the
Magisterium is presenting what is false as true; that some experience an exclusive SSA.

You haven’t answered why it is important to you. This isn’t an answer, it’s a nicety constructed in the hope that no one pushes you further.

I haven’t seen you offer any concern for the men who make up the Magisterium, you haven’t expressed worry that anything else in the Catechism is or could be wrong. What you have done is start the same thread four times. Every post you have ever made (as of last night when I looked) is in a thread about gay or transgender issues, all 291 (again, as of last night) of them. You have questioned the truthfulness of your Bishop. You have questioned the integrity of the Magisterium by suggesting they are under the influence of a “stream of corruption” and the “gay lobby”.

Again, I wonder, I ask, why is it important to you. And then I see this.

I am not aware of anything else the Magisterium is presenting as true that is false; if there were I would seek
guidance and clarification from the Magisterium as I am in this instance. As for my Bishop all I can tell you
is that he was willing and able to present my appeal to the Apostolic Signatura he did not let me know this
was available to me when I asked; I had to find this out from a canon lawyer. I believe my Bishop is not willing
to present my appeal to Pope Francis I know of no reason why my Bishop should be unable to present my
appeal to Pope Francis and my Bishop declined to give me one.

As I told you in forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14384329&postcount=237 this is Pope Francis’s
view on a “stream of corruption” and the “gay lobby”

How do you know what others are or aren’t capable of feeling?

I’ll tell you what I believe, I believe you’ve constructed a labyrinth of lies. Someone offers up something you can’t accept or deal with, you’ve got your reply all ready.

I do not dismiss others feelings but I will not feed their delusions especially if they lead them away from
the Lord. My concern here is the Magisterium presenting what is false as true.

So much easier to deny someone else’s truth than deal with your own.

I believe there are not multiple inconsistent truths: one or more persons may be wrong about the truth.

I’m curious, do you have proof to back up this claim?

I believe people can chose to pursue OSA and it lead to a life pleasing to the Lord, they can chose to pursue
OSA and follow it to a perverted sexuality. I believe people can chose to pursue SSA and it only lead to no
good. I believe people can chose not to pursue OSA or SSA and lead a holy and chaste life pleasing to the
Lord. I understand that SSA is a burden that people struggle with but telling them they are this mythical
“homosexual person” is cruel of the Magisterium.

I believe no one is only capable of SSA it is a choice.

2358(CCC) originally said:

“They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial”

The present version says:

“This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial”

The Magisterium recognized the author(s) overt statement as wrong but let the underlining sentiment
stand.

No one can prove that something doesn’t exist. If you believe that anyone is capable of exclusive SSA
what is it that informs the belief?

God bless

 

[Bookcat]

My concern here is the Magisterium presenting what is false as true.

And such a concern is not founded.

The Magisterium there is presenting the Mortal Teaching of the Church as to the need for all the live chastely.

I understand that SSA is a burden that people struggle with but telling them they are this mythical
“homosexual person” is cruel of the Magisterium.

Again the Magisterium is simply not doing what fear.

This is reading into what is written.

And it is very incorrect to say the Magisterium is doing something cruel here.

The Magisterium is simply not doing any such thing.

It is discussing persons who experience these attractions - just as she discusses persons who experience other things. It is a way to use a qualifier to discuss a matter.

It is discussing the morality involved. Such is in the Moral section of the Catechism.

That no matter what a person may experience in their personal subjective experience - they are to live chastely as a Christian called to the life of virtue.

 

[Rau]

…I believe that exclusive SSA does not exist. What is important to me is that the Magisterium is presenting what is false as true; that some experience an exclusive SSA.

Noting your “belief” is simply that - a belief - you ought to also indicate that your view of the Magisterium is also simply a belief - not a fact.

I do not dismiss others feelings but I will not feed their delusions especially if they lead them away from the Lord.

Their experience would be properly called a delusion were it objectively false. “I am Napoleon Bonaparte” is objectively delusional, for it cannot be so. “I experience attractions to persons of the same sex, but (so far at least) not any attraction to the opposite sex” can’t be labelled delusion as there is no objective fact being contradicted.

I believe no one is only capable of SSA - it is a choice.

It is “experience” we are discussing, not capability. You have no basis to claim that no person can fail to experience attractions to the opposite sex. None at all. There are many afflictions affecting the human condition.

I believe people can chose to pursue OSA and it leads to a life pleasing to the Lord, they can chose to pursue OSA and follow it to a perverted sexuality. I believe people can chose to pursue SSA and it only lead to no good. I believe people can chose not to pursue OSA or SSA and lead a holy and chaste life pleasing to the Lord.

Where we understand “pursue” to mean embracing sexual acts, then yes, this is correct. But note that to pursue an attraction requires one first to experience it. To pursue the actions and the married state of life if one feels no OSA, **may **risk misrepresenting oneself to another person. Special care including full disclosure is required!

2358(CCC) originally said:

“They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial”

The present version says:

“This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial”

The Magisterium recognized the author(s) overt statement as wrong but let the underlining sentiment stand.

I suggest the authors recognised the potential to confuse “choosing to experience the inclination” with “choosing to act on it” and reworded the section to avoid that potential for misunderstanding.

 

[Peter_J]

For interest, here is a talk on SSA from a Christian biblical scholar.
thegospelcoalition.org.au/podcasts/bibletalks/WesHill_1Cor6.mp3.
Here is the web page:
australia.thegospelcoalition.org/article/wes-hill-bssa

The speaker description is:

"Wesley Hill is Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies at Trinity School for Ministry (Pittsburgh). He offers a biblical and orthodox position on the issue with credibility and personal integrity (Wesley is exclusively same-sex attracted and celibate). His undergraduate studies were at Wheaton, and his PhD from Durham University. His speaking topics and research interests are Pauline theology, Trinitarian theology, and Christian sexual ethics."http://thegospelcoalition.org.au/podcasts/bibletalks/WesHill_1Cor6.mp3

The speaker states himself (toward the end) he experiences only attraction to the same sex.

Thank you sharing that talk.

But about your last sentence, I would suggest not worrying about whether someone is exclusively attracted to men – or, conversely, exclusively attracted to women – or whether he is *predominantly *attracted to one gender but also slightly attracted to the other. What’s important is that he is a person.

 

[Rau]

Thank you sharing that talk.

But about your last sentence, I would suggest not worrying about whether someone is exclusively attracted to men – or, conversely, exclusively attracted to women – or whether he is *predominantly *attracted to one gender but also slightly attracted to the other. What’s important is that he is a person.

The last sentence was for the benefit of jjr9 who believes no person experiences such attractions.

 

[Peter_J]

jjr9 who believes no person experiences such attractions.

Yes indeed, your friend has posted dozens of times to that effect. Not to mention the fact that the thread is titled: “homosexual person” myth or Truth

The internet is an interesting place, to say the least – I wonder where humanity would be without it.

 

[Tagetes]

1. CCC isn’t originally written in English. It’s a translation.
2. Very tired of people exclusively attracted to the opposite sex pronouncing themselves experts on what it is like to be LGBT.

Also, to OP: since it’s not the first, nor the third, nor even the tenth instance this topic is being brought up, can’t help but employ a certain movie quote, “Why are you so obsessed with me?”

 

[Usagi]

No one can prove that something doesn’t exist. If you believe that anyone is capable of exclusive SSA
what is it that informs the belief?

God bless

That people assert that they experience exclusive SSA? That is exactly the same evidence I have that people experience exclusive OSA. People’s stories of developing attraction to one sex or another are remarkably similar, coming about as they mature and not because they personally willed to feel one thing or another. Why should I believe the people who claim they are only attracted to the opposite sex, but not the ones who claim they are only attracted to the same sex?

Sure, attraction to the opposite sex makes more sense biologically for the sake of reproduction, and theologically given that God has told us acting on the alternative is wrong. But our bodies and brains come with a wide variety of abilities and disabilities, some of them actively harmful given the fallen universe we inhabit. If a person can be born unable to see or hear, how can you stubbornly insist that no one could be born wired to experience attraction to the same sex rather than the other one?

Usagi

 

[Peter_J]

That people assert that they experience exclusive SSA? That is exactly the same evidence I have that people experience exclusive OSA. People’s stories of developing attraction to one sex or another are remarkably similar, coming about as they mature and not because they personally willed to feel one thing or another. Why should I believe the people who claim they are only attracted to the opposite sex, but not the ones who claim they are only attracted to the same sex?

I’m reluctant to come to jjr9’s defense, but in the interest of fairness I think I need to point out that I haven’t seen any claims from him that heterosexual persons are exclusively attracted to the opposite sex.

 

[Peter_J]

Also, to OP: since it’s not the first, nor the third, nor even the tenth instance this topic is being brought up, can’t help but employ a certain movie quote, “Why are you so obsessed with me?”

Well, *generally *speaking I would have thought you would be glad of Catholics talking about the topic after centuries of ignoring it (and worse). That being said, please be aware that even a conservative like myself finds this particular thread absolutely awful.

 

[Tagetes]

Well, *generally *speaking I would have thought you would be glad of Catholics talking about the topic after centuries of ignoring it (and worse)

My ironic quote was aimed at the OP in particular, and at his (?) incessant crusade to mythbust “the mythical homosexual person”. Yet whenever an actual homosexual CAF user emerges in such a thread with a testimony, OP ignores us.

 

[Bookcat]

Part of the OP difficulty is mis-reading what the Catechism is discussing in that *morality *section.

Thus they see a difficulty where none exists.

 

[Peter_J]

My ironic quote was aimed at the OP in particular, and at his (?) incessant crusade to mythbust “the mythical homosexual person”.

Alright. You may be right that jjr9 has a obsession with homosexual persons. But an even more interesting question IMO is, How many people on CAF have an obsession with what jjr9 believes or doesn’t believe?

Yet whenever an actual homosexual CAF user emerges in such a thread with a testimony, OP ignores us.

Personally, FWIW, I get very tired of being ignored on this forum. On a number of occasions I’ve asked my Protestant friends on CAF whether they would pay more attention to my posts if I stepped up my rudeness/nastiness toward them. I wasn’t entirely serious, but still …

 

[jjr9]

That people assert that they experience exclusive SSA? That is exactly the same evidence I have that people experience exclusive OSA. People’s stories of developing attraction to one sex or another are remarkably similar, coming about as they mature and not because they personally willed to feel one thing or another. Why should I believe the people who claim they are only attracted to the opposite sex, but not the ones who claim they are only attracted to the same sex?

Sure, attraction to the opposite sex makes more sense biologically for the sake of reproduction, and theologically given that God has told us acting on the alternative is wrong. But our bodies and brains come with a wide variety of abilities and disabilities, some of them actively harmful given the fallen universe we inhabit. If a person can be born unable to see or hear, how can you stubbornly insist that no one could be born wired to experience attraction to the same sex rather than the other one?

Usagi

If someone were “wired” this way or this were a “disability” do you think there would be no evidence of this?

People asserting something does not make it true.

God bless