Homosexuality and Natural Law -- A Concern

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God clearly made homosexual love fruitless, despite the fact that gay people want kids as much as anyone else. To me, there are only two possible reasons for His making gay love fruitless:

(1) He didn’t think that sexuality is a proper manifestation of the love between two men or two women, so He made it fruitless as an indication that we shouldn’t do it.

or

(2) God hates gay people.

Those are the only options, so far as I can tell. Can you think of a third option?
Do you think natural law relies on young earth creationism or intelligent designers? :confused:

All I can say is hath not a homosexual eyes? Hath not a homosexual hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal’d by the same means, warm’d and cool’d by the same winter and summer as a heterosexual is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a homosexual wrong a heterosexual, what is his humility? Revenge. If a heterosexual wrong a homosexual, what should his sufferance be by heterosexual example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.

Which is by way of saying majorities tend to take revenge on minorities for things they never even did. But God’s ways are not our ways. He can teach us to be dancers who dance upon injustice.

PS: Couples who can’t have children adopt. The children are better off than in an institution. Whether the couple is straight or gay.
 
Speaking of a “third option”, in case no one has posted this yet, here’s an AMAZING and beautiful video on the Catholic Church’s teachings on homosexuality. It’s 35 minutes long but worth every minute!

It’s called “The Third Way”

vimeo.com/93079367

Everyone needs to see this!
Something for you to watch. vimeo.com/93079367
The video is very slow here and kept stopping so I could only see parts. But it seemed to be emotional polemic, as this kind of video usually is. What politicians and hell-fire preachers use to sweep people along by a wave of emotion.

If the video makes a philosophical case then the argument can be written down and posted, otherwise there would be nothing to separate it from popcorn. 🙂
 
Do you think natural law relies on young earth creationism or intelligent designers? :confused:

All I can say is hath not a homosexual eyes? Hath not a homosexual hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal’d by the same means, warm’d and cool’d by the same winter and summer as a heterosexual is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a homosexual wrong a heterosexual, what is his humility? Revenge. If a heterosexual wrong a homosexual, what should his sufferance be by heterosexual example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.

Which is by way of saying majorities tend to take revenge on minorities for things they never even did. But God’s ways are not our ways. He can teach us to be dancers who dance upon injustice.
I don’t see an answer to my question here. It was a simple multiple choice question, predicated on something we agree on: that God created the universe. That claim has NOTHING to do with “intelligent design” or young earth creationism.

Since God is all-powerful and God created the world, then God knew very well that there would be people who experienced same-sex attraction. And yet he made it so that these people could not reproduce with each other. He didn’t do this by tinkering with the universe, but by making the entire universe in such a way that the present situation (roughly) would unfold. Any other kind of God would be entirely negligent and unChristian.

So my multiple choice question, again, is this:
God clearly made homosexual love fruitless, despite the fact that gay people want kids as much as anyone else. To me, there are only two possible reasons for His making gay love fruitless:
(1) He didn’t think that sexuality is a proper manifestation of the love between two men or two women, so He made it fruitless as an indication that we shouldn’t do it.
(2) God hates gay people.
Which do you think is true? Or do you have a third option?
PS: Couples who can’t have children adopt. The children are better off than in an institution. Whether the couple is straight or gay.
OK, I don’t see any reason to dispute that. But I didn’t think we were talking about the morality of gay people adopting children.
 
The video is very slow here and kept stopping so I could only see parts. But it seemed to be emotional polemic, as this kind of video usually is. What politicians and hell-fire preachers use to sweep people along by a wave of emotion.

If the video makes a philosophical case then the argument can be written down and posted, otherwise there would be nothing to separate it from popcorn. 🙂
Sorry your reception was so poor. Of course strong emotions are present when people are suffering. These people found an answer to their suffering. But the reason I wanted to to watch is that the argument presented repeated the points in Article 6 I tried to explain to you which you claimed weren’t in the Catechism.

Linus2nd
 
I don’t see an answer to my question here. It was a simple multiple choice question, predicated on something we agree on: that God created the universe. That claim has NOTHING to do with “intelligent design” or young earth creationism.

Since God is all-powerful and God created the world, then God knew very well that there would be people who experienced same-sex attraction. And yet he made it so that these people could not reproduce with each other. He didn’t do this by tinkering with the universe, but by making the entire universe in such a way that the present situation (roughly) would unfold. Any other kind of God would be entirely negligent and unChristian.
I’m saying you are posing a false dilemma based on faulty reasoning. Here is my paraphrase of your multiple choice question:

God clearly made infertile love fruitless, despite the fact that infertile people want kids as much as anyone else. To me, there are only two possible reasons for His making infertile love fruitless:

(1) He didn’t think that infertility is a proper manifestation of the love between a man and a woman, so He made it fruitless as an indication that they shouldn’t do it.

or

(2) God hates infertile people.

Which do you think is true? Or do you have a third option?
 
Sorry your reception was so poor. Of course strong emotions are present when people are suffering. These people found an answer to their suffering. But the reason I wanted to to watch is that the argument presented repeated the points in Article 6 I tried to explain to you which you claimed weren’t in the Catechism.
Sorry, don’t know why it’s so slow. But maybe someone else can present that argument in writing.
 
That is, a truly “married” couple would positively will their unity to bring about the existence of new human beings who are the embodiment of their spiritual, psychological, intellectual, emotional, social and physical oneness. Absent that integral desire for their relationship, I would argue that the couple are not demonstrating the unitive aspect of what a complete marriage truly involves.
Apparently a European court agrees with you.

c-fam.org/en/issues/marriage-and-family/7927-european-court-gay-marriage-is-not-a-human-right
 
I’m saying you are posing a false dilemma based on faulty reasoning. Here is my paraphrase of your multiple choice question:

God clearly made infertile love fruitless, despite the fact that infertile people want kids as much as anyone else. To me, there are only two possible reasons for His making infertile love fruitless:

(1) He didn’t think that infertility is a proper manifestation of the love between a man and a woman, so He made it fruitless as an indication that they shouldn’t do it.

or

(2) God hates infertile people.

Which do you think is true? Or do you have a third option?
If you say something is a false dilemma, that means you have a third option. But instead of proposing the third option above, you just rephrased my question in a false and misleading way. Gay people aren’t infertile.

What is your third option?

(Note: If you say “infertility” is like being gay, then you seem to be claiming that being gay is a defect, like being infertile is a defect. There are theological explanations for defects, and we can discuss that, if you choose to claim that being gay is a defect.)
 
Sure, that’s right. But since we can’t control the desire, the desire isn’t wrong – i.e., not sinful. The devil wants us to think the passive desire (the temptation, or passion) itself is sinful. That’s true of any passion, like the temptation to steal or the temptation to commit adultery or the temptation to gossip. The devil wants us to think merely wanting these things (without willing them) is wrong.
Your division of desire into passive and active may be confusing to many, certainly to those of my age. We were taught that the first appearance of an evil desire was a temptation. It adds nothing to the understanding to call it passive. And we were taught that no temptation was sinful ( unless we did something to directly or indirectly to cause the temptation ). But, as soon as we become aware of it we must do all we can to get rid of it and to keep striving until it passes. To consent to the initial desire would be a sin of more or less gravity.

For example, we cannot actively and intentionally desire any forbidden fruit, no matter what it is.

For most men women are a danger ( even for married men ), so we should not be fantasizing about a woman we are not married to, we should not be thinking about her at all.

Linus2nd.
 
Sorry, don’t know why it’s so slow. But maybe someone else can present that argument in writing.
I have already given you the argument, it is in Part III, article 6 of the Catechism, just as I explained it to you. However, the third way the video speaks of is to come back to God and be repentent for a bad past and resolve to please God always. Which means one has to develope a personal relationship to Christ. But since it was a Catholic video it was geared to Catholics, that they should seek reconcilliation in confession and begin practicing their faith again. Non-Catholics of course would adjust this " third way " to the practices of their own faith.

Linus2nd
 
Your division of desire into passive and active may be confusing to many, certainly to those of my age. We were taught that the first appearance of an evil desire was a temptation. It adds nothing to the understanding to call it passive. And we were taught that no temptation was sinful ( unless we did something to directly or indirectly to cause the temptation ). But, as soon as we become aware of it we must do all we can to get rid of it and to keep striving until it passes. To consent to the initial desire would be a sin of more or less gravity.

For example, we cannot actively and intentionally desire any forbidden fruit, no matter what it is.

For most men women are a danger ( even for married men ), so we should not be fantasizing about a woman we are not married to, we should not be thinking about her at all.

Linus2nd.
I agree with everything here except your aversion to the word “passive”. You say we must not “consent” to the desire. Why not? Of course, because consenting would make the desire active. Which means it must have been passive before, no?

In Aristotelian terms, a temptation is a potentiality which might not become actual. It is our choice whether to actualize it.
 
The reality is that the original purpose of marriage is for the preservation of chastity and the procreation of children. And what the culture promises of marriage in a superficial way God promises as an actual result and a much more genuine and fuller expression in an actual marriage according to His design.
I get really frustrated over modern society’s treatment of chastity and virginity. In a way it’s demonized. There’s always that pressure that if you aren’t having sex with someone right now, you’re some kind of failure or loser or that you’re just unlucky. There’s no sense of respect for people with any level self-control. I feel like taking a vow of perpetual virginity in today’s society would be, in the very least, seen as extreme. Personally I have a lot of respect for people who have that kind of courage. It’s not an easy task.

Sex is treated like the end all be all for human happiness. If you just have sex, you’ll never be sad again. It’s no wonder gay people want their actions to be accepted. Most of what people are exposed to nowadays seems to consist of “straight people have sex all the time and don’t get in trouble, and anyone who doesn’t have sex has something wrong with them.” Unfortunately, all we end up with is more people believing that sex will solve all of their problems, and the cycle continues.
 
The morality of a fair and just society is one which does not impose on our liberty by taking away any more rights than is necessary for it to function, and which imposes those restrictions equally on all. And then instead of our miserably solitary state, “Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!” as the psalmist puts it.

So that’s a moral theory behind live and let live. If I explained it right, you’ll see that from that angle, the morality of restricting what consenting citizens do in private is only just if applies equally to all citizens and aids the functioning of society.
The connection people who disagree with the Church always seem to miss though, is that the restrictions placed upon us ARE equal to all. Sex would be equally sinful for me, for example, whether I had sex with my girlfriend of 4 years or my best friend. It doesn’t matter how much I love them or what their gender is, if I’m not married to them and/or what I’m doing has no biological potential to produce a child, I have committed a sin if I knowingly chose to do anything sexual with them. That rule applies to all people. The only people permitted to have sex with each other are a husband and wife, because it is in the child’s best biological interests to be raised by the two humans whose DNA makes up their own.

From a secular standpoint, your explanation of live and let live is logically ideal, because the assumption in that case is that what two people do between themselves with no others involved bears no harm to anyone else. But things are far more interconnected than that, and are never that clinical in reality. The argument here is that it is not morally just to restrict the private actions of any particular group. The problem with sex fitting into that, however, is that, according to the Church, sexual intercourse is NOT an action that is restricted to only specific groups, but both a privilege and responsibility entrusted to only one. That is why the Church doesn’t consider forbidding sex between unmarried couples to be an imposition placed upon them. Marriage is a vocation in the Church. It is not a right, it is not an eventuality, and it is not a venture that is undertaken lightly. It is a Sacrament. Just as not everyone is able to become a priest or a nun, not everyone is able to get married. The purpose of marriage is, at its core, the unification of a male and female to produce a new human and provide a stable environment for their upbringing. The main point of marriage is not so much the couple as their children and their collective part in the continuation of human life.

A single glance at statistics for divorce and domestic abuse will show you how many people would have probably been better off emotionally and financially never having gotten married in the first place. For the record, I am in no way saying any children they had should not have happened. Nor am I saying a person should stay in an abusive marriage. But too many people get married without really being ready for the commitment it involves, as I mentioned before, and they just end up hurting their kids in the end. No child wants to watch their parents fight, and no child wants to see their parents have to separate.

With the Church’s stance on marriage in mind, restricting sexual intercourse to married couples intending to raise a family together is vitally necessary for society to function. Without children, society would cease to exist. Like any ideal model, however, society obviously does NOT function that way, because those kinds of restrictions are not really viably enforceable.

Long story short, if a restriction on private action is just only if applied equally and provides some benefit, from the Church’s perspective, restricting sex to married couples would fall under that criteria, as no one aside from a husband-wife pair intending to have children may have sex, providing children with both biological parents who have a genetic and biological imperative to care for and nurture their own offspring. In this scenario, foster parents would be (like in nature) exceptionally altruistic individuals who are caring for a child as their own, despite having no maternal/paternal genetic relationship with them.

That example is unrealistically utopian, but the Church’s disagreement with allowing any consenting couple to have sex in private stems from it’s position that sex is less of a right for all humans than it is a privilege and vocation restricted to a married couple. I feel like I wanted to add more to this, but it’s really late here, so I’ll try to remember tomorrow.
 
You guys must be desperate :).

The Court first made that decision years ago, but every so often people bring test cases to determine the boundary. The Court interprets the European Convention and does not make law.

It ruled repeatedly that criminalization of homosexual acts violated Art 8 (right to respect for private life) and Art 14 (prohibition of discrimination). Thanks for giving me the opportunity to point that out.
 
The connection people who disagree with the Church always seem to miss though, is that the restrictions placed upon us ARE equal to all. Sex would be equally sinful for me, for example, whether I had sex with my girlfriend of 4 years or my best friend. It doesn’t matter how much I love them or what their gender is, if I’m not married to them and/or what I’m doing has no biological potential to produce a child, I have committed a sin if I knowingly chose to do anything sexual with them. That rule applies to all people. The only people permitted to have sex with each other are a husband and wife, because it is in the child’s best biological interests to be raised by the two humans whose DNA makes up their own.
I don’t see how there’s a connection to miss though. The heterosexual couple is told they must be married before expressing their love physically, fair enough. But the homosexual couple is told they can never express their love physically. That’s very different.
From a secular standpoint, your explanation of live and let live is logically ideal, because the assumption in that case is that what two people do between themselves with no others involved bears no harm to anyone else. But things are far more interconnected than that, and are never that clinical in reality. The argument here is that it is not morally just to restrict the private actions of any particular group. The problem with sex fitting into that, however, is that, according to the Church, sexual intercourse is NOT an action that is restricted to only specific groups, but both a privilege and responsibility entrusted to only one. That is why the Church doesn’t consider forbidding sex between unmarried couples to be an imposition placed upon them. Marriage is a vocation in the Church. It is not a right, it is not an eventuality, and it is not a venture that is undertaken lightly. It is a Sacrament. Just as not everyone is able to become a priest or a nun, not everyone is able to get married. The purpose of marriage is, at its core, the unification of a male and female to produce a new human and provide a stable environment for their upbringing. The main point of marriage is not so much the couple as their children and their collective part in the continuation of human life.
A single glance at statistics for divorce and domestic abuse will show you how many people would have probably been better off emotionally and financially never having gotten married in the first place. For the record, I am in no way saying any children they had should not have happened. Nor am I saying a person should stay in an abusive marriage. But too many people get married without really being ready for the commitment it involves, as I mentioned before, and they just end up hurting their kids in the end. No child wants to watch their parents fight, and no child wants to see their parents have to separate.
With the Church’s stance on marriage in mind, restricting sexual intercourse to married couples intending to raise a family together is vitally necessary for society to function. Without children, society would cease to exist. Like any ideal model, however, society obviously does NOT function that way, because those kinds of restrictions are not really viably enforceable.
That states a position but in 1 Cor 7, Paul gives no indication he would agree with it. In any event the logic that children should be raised in a stable relationship and therefore a couple should be married prior to the possibility of making babies (which I’d agree with) doesn’t apply when said couple cannot make babies.
*Long story short, if a restriction on private action is just only if applied equally and provides some benefit, from the Church’s perspective, restricting sex to married couples would fall under that criteria, as no one aside from a husband-wife pair intending to have children may have sex, providing children with both biological parents who have a genetic and biological imperative to care for and nurture their own offspring. In this scenario, foster parents would be (like in nature) exceptionally altruistic individuals who are caring for a child as their own, despite having no maternal/paternal genetic relationship with them.
That example is unrealistically utopian, but the Church’s disagreement with allowing any consenting couple to have sex in private stems from it’s position that sex is less of a right for all humans than it is a privilege and vocation restricted to a married couple. I feel like I wanted to add more to this, but it’s really late here, so I’ll try to remember tomorrow.*
The issue I keep coming back to is that restricting what consenting adults do in private conflicts directly with live and let live. Either there is a right to privacy or there isn’t. Either there is a right to equality or there isn’t.

I think I’m repeating myself now and there’s nothing more I can offer relating to the OP. I’ll keep looking in on the thread though, if there’s anything else, but otherwise thanks for the discussion, it was nice and civilized and I hope you enjoyed it as much as me.
 
If you say something is a false dilemma, that means you have a third option. But instead of proposing the third option above, you just rephrased my question in a false and misleading way. Gay people aren’t infertile.

What is your third option?

(Note: If you say “infertility” is like being gay, then you seem to be claiming that being gay is a defect, like being infertile is a defect. There are theological explanations for defects, and we can discuss that, if you choose to claim that being gay is a defect.)
To me your question is basically when did you stop beating your wife.

It begins “God clearly made homosexual love fruitless”, which attempts to trap me into accepting a designer god. If God clearly did that then God clearly made Alzheimer’s and clearly made some people call-center operatives and clearly made America rich. I mean there’s the same degree of clarity to each.

My third option is that there’s no single clear cause for alternate sexual orientations. For example, the American Academy of Pediatrics says: “A variety of theories about the influences on sexual orientation have been proposed. Sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences. In recent decades, biologically based theories have been favored by experts. …] Although there continues to be controversy and uncertainty as to the genesis of the variety of human sexual orientations, there is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation. Current knowledge suggests that sexual orientation is usually established during early childhood.”

My answer is that as a strong principle, it is immoral to classify or stereotype people in any way whatsoever without good cause, and with the current state of knowledge there’s no better reason to identify homosexuals as a grouping in morality than ginger-tops or coffee drinkers.

My answer is that for hundreds of years women were educated and treated differently to men. When people questioned why, they discovered there was no good cause, it was just that’s how it had always been. I think it’s similar with homosexuals in the sense that there would appear to be no killer argument for why it is morally meaningful to identify homosexuals as a separate group (although there is, of course, evidence that doing so harms individuals who get put into that group). I think the lack of a killer argument is why there are so many threads on this subject, far more perhaps than any other single issue. After hundreds of years of it never really being questioned, when it is then the justification is found to be a bit thin.

Anyway I think I’m just repeating myself now. Good to debate you, I enjoyed it and hope you did too. 🙂
 
To me your question is basically when did you stop beating your wife.

It begins “God clearly made homosexual love fruitless”, which attempts to trap me into accepting a designer god. If God clearly did that then God clearly made Alzheimer’s and clearly made some people call-center operatives and clearly made America rich. I mean there’s the same degree of clarity to each.
Another dodge, and you know it. If “I tried to trap you”, you haven’t managed to eluded the trap. For your answer doesn’t make sense, theologically.

God allows all events that occur. This follows from omnipotence. He also allows all conditions that occur, including the condition of same sex attraction (or opposite sex attraction, for that matter).

Now either SSA is a manifestation of proper function (like left-handedness) or it is a defect (like Alzheimer’s). If it is a manifestation of proper function, then it is obviously a manifestation of a human being’s proper sexual function. The proper function of any bodily system is obviously the function God willed it to have – or else we should have to say that God made people, but that (somehow) God had no say in the way they worked. That’s a bizarre position.

Now if God willed gay people to have sex with other people of the same sex, and yet God did not allow such unions to produce children, there is something puzzling going on. It seems like God has a grudge against gay people.

But if we say that SSA is a defect, we are still in a pickle. Because the fact that someone desires to engage in some activity because of a defect does not make that activity good for them. When I have a chronic itch, itching it is bad for me, not good for me.

Either way, it’s hard to reconcile the permissibility of gay sex with the existence of a good God, even if you ignore any Scriptural dictate except the dictate that “God created man and woman”. 🤷
My third option is that there’s no single clear cause for alternate sexual orientations.
Theologically, there is. God allowed them to exist, for some good purpose. But they are not randomly fruitless. God does not play dice with our sexual desires.
 
Another dodge, and you know it. If “I tried to trap you”, you haven’t managed to eluded the trap. For your answer doesn’t make sense, theologically.
All of us who say live and let live on this eventually get called insincere, dishonest, dumb and unChristian by one person or another. It seems that when it comes down to the wire, the only decent argument you guys have is peer pressure, while we are expected to work our way through a confused labyrinth of faulty a priori reasoning based on denial of evolution and evidence, verse mining from scripture, and a medieval take on reproduction as magic and of humans as machines. 🤷

There is no proper sexual function willed by God. Hundreds of millions of people are harmed by homophobia. They deserve better than a confused fence-sitting theology which purports to know what God wants, and which places that narrow ideology before their needs.

Dance upon injustice. Live and let live. :cool:
 
All of us who say live and let live on this eventually get called insincere, dishonest, dumb and unChristian by one person or another. It seems that when it comes down to the wire, the only decent argument you guys have is peer pressure, while we are expected to work our way through a confused labyrinth of faulty a priori reasoning based on denial of evolution and evidence, verse mining from scripture, and a medieval take on reproduction as magic and of humans as machines. 🤷
I didn’t come within a mile of an ad hominem. I said you didn’t answer the question in a satisfactory way. As a matter of fact, I think you are very smart – and yet I still think you didn’t answer the question in a satisfactory way. The reason is that it is pretty much impossible to give a satisfactory answer, if you admit that God made the universe and the nature of things in the universe.
There is no proper sexual function willed by God.
Is there no proper function of the endocrine system that is willed by God? What about the respiratory system?
 
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