Homosexuality And Original Sin

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Let’s be clear…from a religious standpoint…is gay sex or straight sex immoral?

From a secular standpoint…is gay sex or straight sex a natural behavior?
Which religious perspective?
  • To traditional Catholic moral teaching, it is immoral
  • To other Christian churches, it is immoral
  • To other Christian churches still, gay relationships are embraced, as sexual morality is not determined by physicalist, traditional interpretation of Catholic natural law
What do you mean by natural?
  • To the natural moral law as interpreted by the Catholic Church, gay sex is “unnatural”
  • If you mean the natural world, then gay sex is very natural because
  • (a) it is observed among animals
  • (b) humans have natural feelings that lead them to want to have gay relationships
 
I take it you think the Church integrates gay people pretty well into its society.
When I was single, I did not feel excluded in any sense. I asked you earlier to elaborate on this point of identified inadequacy, to explain what the Church should offer or do - so far you have declined.
 
When I was single, I did not feel excluded in any sense. I asked you earlier to elaborate on this point of identified inadequacy, to explain what the Church should offer or do - so far you have declined.
The homosexual Catholic:
  • cannot marry
  • cannot hope to engage in any romantic relationship (such as dating)
  • cannot have a family
  • is not encouraged to enter holy orders
  • must remain celibate
The conditions for the homosexual Catholic as current church policy states leads the individual to lead a very lonely life.

Everyone has crosses to endure, but that doesn’t mean we should make up new ones.
 
The homosexual Catholic:
  • cannot marry
  • cannot hope to engage in any romantic relationship (such as dating)
  • cannot have a family
  • is not encouraged to enter holy orders
  • must remain celibate
The conditions for the homosexual Catholic as current church policy states leads the individual to lead a very lonely life.

Everyone has crosses to endure, but that doesn’t mean we should make up new ones.
Looking at your points in order:
  • how should the Church conclude that marriage is other than as Scripture described it?
  • romance by its nature proceeds toward marriage
  • families are formed through marriage
  • this is the judgement call of the Church, based on what it feels best for the role of Priest. It affects very few compared to the other points.
  • marriage is the only proper place for sex.
We agree there may be considerable burden here, but what would you have the Church actually do?
 
Looking at your points in order:
  • how should the Church conclude that marriage is other than as Scripture described it?
  • romance by its nature proceeds toward marriage
  • families are formed through marriage
  • this is the judgement call of the Church, based on what it feels best for the role of Priest. It affects very few compared to the other points.
  • marriage is the only proper place for sex.
We agree there may be considerable burden here, but what would you have the Church actually do?
Revisit its theology on sexual morality, which has largely been formulated through a specific interpretation of natural moral law layered on top of traditional notions passed on from antiquity.
 
I was not justifying it based on that… ???

If you read my post, you would see that my response was due to my concern that many people use this very reason to argue against gay relationships – as if gay persons are all promiscuous and lustful creatures who are doomed to end up with disease.
I understand your concern. But I get the feeling that you consider a gay relationship to be a safe, healthy and normal arrangement.

I agree that some monogamous gay relationships may be safe and healthy…but they are a small minority.

The Center for Disease Control and health departments in all major cities devote an unusual amount of time and effort publishing warnings about safe sex and health risks for the gay community. …and still the spread of disease grows.

I think it is a very strong reason to argue against gay relationships.
 
Revisit its theology on sexual morality, which has largely been formulated through a specific interpretation of natural moral law layered on top of traditional notions passed on from antiquity.
Earlier you wrote:
*“If the Church does not embrace what a homosexual person feels is inherent to their wants, desires, and fulfillment, then they may feel the Church is not at all authoritative. Christianity seems to then be nonsensical.”*The gap between what a person wants, and what the Church teaches, is certainly a basis for personal doubts. But to conclude, on the basis of that gap, that the Church cannot teach authoritatively is only to place yourself ahead of the Church as teacher. Since this surely is not a sound basis, your further conclusion is also not sound.

The teaching of the Church is based on Scripture, Tradition and Natural Law - and these considerations all point in the same direction. It is wrong to say they are merely some “notions from antiquity” and some “interpretation of Moral Law”.

Were the Church to indeed revisit its sexual morality teaching, what outcomes would be necessary such that it “embraces what [you] feel is inherent to [your] wants, desires, and fulfillment”? * Would it be that:
  • marriage legitimacy does not depend on the sex of the partners?
  • sexual acts between loving persons are always OK (regardless of marriage or sex of the partners)?
  • would it be that a new sexual union, not marriage, be instituted by the Church, notwithstanding the absence of any basis for it in the Word of God of the teaching of his Church?
I don’t understand how you believe what you seek could ever stand together with the whole of the Catholic Faith. What theology or what elements of the faith can support it?*
 
I understand your concern. But I get the feeling that you consider a gay relationship to be a safe, healthy and normal arrangement.

I agree that some monogamous gay relationships may be safe and healthy…but they are a small minority.

The Center for Disease Control and health departments in all major cities devote an unusual amount of time and effort publishing warnings about safe sex and health risks for the gay community. …and still the spread of disease grows.

I think it is a very strong reason to argue against gay relationships.
I don’t see the connection between the risks of promiscuity and the morality or otherwise of monogamous relationships. Joie’s earlier issue with your post was not your conclusion about morality, but your rationale that go you there. Your answer (gays sex is immoral) is right, your argument quite flawed.
 
Earlier you wrote:
*“If the Church does not embrace what a homosexual person feels is inherent to their wants, desires, and fulfillment, then they may feel the Church is not at all authoritative. Christianity seems to then be nonsensical.”*The gap between what a person wants, and what the Church teaches, is certainly a basis for personal doubts. But to conclude, on the basis of that gap, that the Church cannot teach authoritatively is only to place yourself ahead of the Church as teacher. Since this surely is not a sound basis, your further conclusion is also not sound.

The teaching of the Church is based on Scripture, Tradition and Natural Law - and these considerations all point in the same direction. It is wrong to say they are merely some “notions from antiquity” and some “interpretation of Moral Law”.
You asked me what I would want. Thank you for recognizing it to be a cross. It’s is almost as if being gay is having a blind spot when trying to look at the light. I am not trying to boast of my cross or say that no one else has his or her struggles. I just feel like for many, being gay is a unique struggle because Catholic teaching basically says that the large part us indicating how we are to be happy is really a desire to commit evil. Hence the struggle, pain, and guilt.

So of course I would want the Church to reconsider this matter if it could. Sometimes you need a certain struggle to really put things in perspective for you. If I believed Catholic doctrine in all its pieces 100%, then maybe things would be a little easier. But since I have this natural inclination to love someone else and be happy in this way too, it’s as if church teaching and my experiences are always on a balance. Like “could the Church be wrong here?” You know?

I’m not trying to make this about me and I hate that I had to use so many “I’s” but I can only relate how I feel and what my experiences are as a Catholic and as a gay person.
 
The teaching of the Church is based on Scripture, Tradition and Natural Law - and these considerations all point in the same direction. It is wrong to say they are merely some “notions from antiquity” and some “interpretation of Moral Law”.

Were the Church to indeed revisit its sexual morality teaching, what outcomes would be necessary such that it “embraces what [you] feel is inherent to [your] wants, desires, and fulfillment”? * Would it be that:
  • marriage legitimacy does not depend on the sex of the partners?
  • sexual acts between loving persons are always OK (regardless of marriage or sex of the partners)?
  • would it be that a new sexual union, not marriage, be instituted by the Church, notwithstanding the absence of any basis for it in the Word of God of the teaching of his Church?
I don’t understand how you believe what you seek could ever stand together with the whole of the Catholic Faith. What theology or what elements of the faith can support it?*

I do not think there is good reason to say that Sacred Scripture and Tradition are against homosexual relationships in themselves simply because these sources at different times assume different understandings of homosexual behavior. Paul simply did not regard homosexuality as a distinct sexual orientation, as the other ancients did not. What he said was not wrong; it is true today as it was then. Homosexual behavior was a very good indicator to him and others of sexual excess that anyone could fall into. There simply was no classification of gay or straight. That gay behavior condemned in ancient Christian texts cannot simply be applied to committed, monogamous homosexual relationships is indicated by the fact of what homosexual activity looked like then: often pederasty and often promiscuous activity sought after by married men (married to women).

Rather, I think it is better to say that the Church has assumed traditional notions of gay behavior as wrong, has applied a specific interpretation of natural moral law to this homosexuality and all of its sexual ethics, and then applied all of this to more modern concepts of committed homosexual relationships. There has never been just one single “natural moral law” theory in the Church. The idea of a universal, objective moral law is very Christian. But what is contained in this law and the methods of figuring that out have not always been clear.

The Church of course would have to understand its sexual morality differently. Often traditional sexual morality has been criticized as very physicalist. Something is immoral in the sexual act when the parts don’t go together as they should. But in other cases of Catholic morality, we do not simply look at the physical act alone. For example, killing is not in itself wrong. You have to take into account intention and circumstances. I think a good argument could be made that opening up to homosexual relationships could in fact bring many people closer to Christ and could be good for the person. Saying that what people intensely feel – their desires to be happy and intimate – are disordered can lead people away from the Church in order for them to find this kind of expression elsewhere. I don’t think the one-size-fits-all approach to sexual morality that we have today in the Church works well.
 
I do not think there is good reason to say that Sacred Scripture and Tradition are against homosexual relationships in themselves simply because these sources at different times assume different understandings of homosexual behavior.
It seems to me a lot of Scripture must be ignored to make this claim.
Paul simply did not regard homosexuality as a distinct sexual orientation, as the other ancients did not. What he said was not wrong; it is true today as it was then. Homosexual behavior was a very good indicator to him and others of sexual excess that anyone could fall into. There simply was no classification of gay or straight. That gay behavior condemned in ancient Christian texts cannot simply be applied to committed, monogamous homosexual relationships is indicated by the fact of what homosexual activity looked like then: often pederasty and often promiscuous activity sought after by married men (married to women).

Rather, I think it is better to say that the Church has assumed traditional notions of gay behavior as wrong, has applied a specific interpretation of natural moral law to this homosexuality and all of its sexual ethics, and then applied all of this to more modern concepts of committed homosexual relationships. There has never been just one single “natural moral law” theory in the Church. The idea of a universal, objective moral law is very Christian. But what is contained in this law and the methods of figuring that out have not always been clear.

The Church of course would have to understand its sexual morality differently. Often traditional sexual morality has been criticized as very physicalist. Something is immoral in the sexual act when the parts don’t go together as they should. But in other cases of Catholic morality, we do not simply look at the physical act alone. For example, killing is not in itself wrong. You have to take into account intention and circumstances. I think a good argument could be made that opening up to homosexual relationships could in fact bring many people closer to Christ and could be good for the person. Saying that what people intensely feel – their desires to be happy and intimate – are disordered can lead people away from the Church in order for them to find this kind of expression elsewhere. I don’t think the one-size-fits-all approach to sexual morality that we have today in the Church works well.
 
It seems to me a lot of Scripture must be ignored to make this claim.
Like what? There are three or so NT passages that directly refer to homosexual behavior (at least thanks to today’s translation; the “kingdom of God” passage for example uses two terms that are often combined for “homosexual,” even though that word didn’t even exist in Paul’s day).

Then there is a Levitical Law and the story of Sodom, which may not even have to do with gay behavior.

EDIT: But a better question would be: Where in Scripture are homosexual relationships in themselves condemned – and not just a certain kind of homosexual behavior>
 
Like what? There are three or so NT passages that directly refer to homosexual behavior (at least thanks to today’s translation; the “kingdom of God” passage for example uses two terms that are often combined for “homosexual,” even though that word didn’t even exist in Paul’s day).

Then there is a Levitical Law and the story of Sodom, which may not even have to do with gay behavior.

EDIT: But a better question would be: Where in Scripture are homosexual relationships in themselves condemned – and not just a certain kind of homosexual behavior>
Would do you mean by “homosexual relationship”?

Why do you think the immoral behaviors can be separated from the relationship? Given the ambiguities inherent in this phrase, it appears to be a distinction without a difference.
 
Or maybe it’s a reason to argue for monogamous relationships and against promiscuous ones. 🤷
A good point but a better argument would be in favor of a normal, natural relationship…a marriage of one man and one woman for the purpose of producing children and living healthy and happily ever after.
 
Your answer (gays sex is immoral) is right, your argument quite flawed.
Rau, old friend, you sound like the Algebra teacher who tells the student that he got the right answer but used the wrong equation. 🙂

To arrive at the right answer using a flawed argument is pretty remarkable…don’t you think?
 
Rau, old friend, you sound like the Algebra teacher who tells the student that he got the right answer but used the wrong equation. 🙂

To arrive at the right answer using a flawed argument is pretty remarkable…don’t you think?
Not if one is trying to teach others how to get the correct answer. Or to demonstrate that someone else’s answer is wrong.

Lucky guesses cannot be dependent upon to consistently generate the correct answer.
 
Not if one is trying to teach others how to get the correct answer. Or to demonstrate that someone else’s answer is wrong.

Lucky guesses cannot be dependent upon to consistently generate the correct answer.
This was not a lucky guess…I knew the right answer all along.
 
Which religious perspective?
  • To traditional Catholic moral teaching, it is immoral
  • To other Christian churches, it is immoral
  • To other Christian churches still, gay relationships are embraced, as sexual morality is not determined by physicalist, traditional interpretation of Catholic natural law
Since this is a Roman Catholic forum let’s go with Roman Catholic teaching.

The Church’s teaching on homosexuality is based on Truth. This is expressed in the words of the bishop, St. Cyril of Jerusalem: “The Church is called Catholic or universal because . . . it teaches fully and unfailingly all the doctrines which ought to be brought to men’s knowledge, whether concerned with visible or invisible things, with the realities of heaven or the things of earth.” In other words, the conclusion that homosexuality is disordered is based on the Truth, not just on Catholic teaching. Yet, saying that makes this conclusion all the more controversial.

If it were based simply on Catholic teaching, opponents could say: “You Catholics are entitled to your opinion, but that is not binding on others.” Instead, saying that Truth is the reason that homosexuality is disordered… is offensive to those who deny the existence of Truth, who prefer to live in a world dominated by what Pope Benedict XVI termed a “dictatorship of relativism.”

If you acknowledge that Truth exists, then we can discuss and even argue about whether or not I or the Catholic Church correctly understands the Truth of this matter. But if you deny that there is such a thing as Truth, that is, the Truth, not just my truth and your truth, then the matter becomes merely an exercise of raw political power in terms of who has more votes to impose an agenda, and that is what makes it ultimately tyrannical.
What do you mean by natural?
Functioning according to nature or design. Not defined by popular opinion.
 
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