Homosexuality And Original Sin

[catholic1seeks]

Not even close to being true. Not only that, it cannot be based on facts or logic. It reeks of innuendo and biased emotionalism.

How would you determine if what I said is true or not?
How would you determine that the opposite is in fact true?

I can only relate what I myself experience and what others experience.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

When I was single, I did not feel excluded in any sense. I asked you earlier to elaborate on this point of identified inadequacy, to explain what the Church should offer or do - so far you have declined.

There is a huge difference in how the Church feels if you view your singleness as a temporary state or a permanent state. If you view it as a permanent thing you gradually realize all of the groups for singles by churches are pretty much mixers to get people married which feels kind of lonely. Also the Church focuses on the family to the neglect of celibacy which is detrimental to the priesthood.

Looking at your points in order:

• how should the Church conclude that marriage is other than as Scripture described it?
• romance by its nature proceeds toward marriage
• families are formed through marriage
• this is the judgement call of the Church, based on what it feels best for the role of Priest. It affects very few compared to the other points.
• marriage is the only proper place for sex.

We agree there may be considerable burden here, but what would you have the Church actually do?

I think what is meant is the trappings of romance, historically not only were they not exclusive to courtship, but they were commonly done with friends. Retrospectively we call those relationships romantic friendship at the time it was merely friendship and wholly unremarkable.

Regarding families what we can do is encourage the extended family and teach people that it is perfectly normal for single people to live with their family after becoming adults. The decline of the extended family has played a large part in the loneliness for single people. We also need to teach people to have more intimate friendships as that is beneficial for both single people and married people.

Revisit its theology on sexual morality, which has largely been formulated through a specific interpretation of natural moral law layered on top of traditional notions passed on from antiquity.

There is wiggle room, but only so much wiggle room. There could be a partial reevaluation such as how suicide is now understood to be influenced by factors such as mental illness which often if not nearly always reduced it to less than a mortal sin, but even that only goes so far.

I don’t see the connection between the risks of promiscuity and the morality or otherwise of monogamous relationships. Joie’s earlier issue with your post was not your conclusion about morality, but your rationale that go you there. Your answer (gays sex is immoral) is right, your argument quite flawed.

Precisely

You asked me what I would want. Thank you for recognizing it to be a cross. It’s is almost as if being gay is having a blind spot when trying to look at the light. I am not trying to boast of my cross or say that no one else has his or her struggles. I just feel like for many, being gay is a unique struggle because Catholic teaching basically says that the large part us indicating how we are to be happy is really a desire to commit evil. Hence the struggle, pain, and guilt.

So of course I would want the Church to reconsider this matter if it could. Sometimes you need a certain struggle to really put things in perspective for you. If I believed Catholic doctrine in all its pieces 100%, then maybe things would be a little easier. But since I have this natural inclination to love someone else and be happy in this way too, it’s as if church teaching and my experiences are always on a balance. Like “could the Church be wrong here?” You know?

I’m not trying to make this about me and I hate that I had to use so many “I’s” but I can only relate how I feel and what my experiences are as a Catholic and as a gay person.

Traditional Catholic teaching says that marriage today is strongly overvalued and that celibacy and friendship are undervalued. It is okay to love someone of the same sex, indeed it can be morally praiseworthy, it can also be good for you to express it intimately, it can help people grow in Christ. What is not okay is sex with the same sex and we both know that being gay isn’t about gay sex, it is about loving someone of the same sex.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Come on, Thoro…

People are designed to do three things:

1. Eat
2. Sleep
3. Procreate.

Everything else is incidental. It does not matter if gay men are having fun with each other…they were not designed to do IT that way.

Thank you for describing what animals are designed to do, now what are people designed to do?

How is being open to two men loving each other ignoring the fruits of love between a man and woman?

Male parts do not apparently naturally go together in the way that male and female parts do. They do not complement each other procreatively. But what does that necessarily entail about the moral condition of two members of the same sex utilizing their sexuality to express their love for one another? The mouth is apparently naturally designed for breathing and eating. But that does not make kissing immoral.

Same sex love can be good, same sex sex is bad.

I would say that current traditional church teaching causes much tragedy and misery for LGBTQ Catholics.

What is promoted as the traditional church teaching is not in fact very traditional at all.

 

[Rau]

Negative references to same sex behavior but not to the type of relationships that we are talking about today.

I have no problem with two men loving each other, for love has many forms. Your references to “gay relationships” may cloud what is in discussion. If not sexual, then are such not simply friendships, or familial relationships, however deep?

 

[davidv]

How would you determine if what I said is true or not?
How would you determine that the opposite is in fact true?

I can only relate what I myself experience and what others experience.

Your experience is your experience. No one else has it. It should not be used spread falsehoods.

Truth exists for all, simultaneously, at times and all place.

Jesus is the Truth. If what you write is contrary to what He taught, your writing is false.

 

[Rau]

I would say that current traditional church teaching causes much tragedy and misery for LGBTQ Catholics.

The clash between the desire for a sexual relationship, and the Church’s teaching that such is wrong, is no doubt the basis of pain for many (and for sympathy and compassion on the part of a great many more). But it does not follow from this observation that the Church teaches error. The question to be asked is: How can the pain be alleviated, or managed to the extent possible?

 

[Rau]

There is a huge difference in how the Church feels if you view your singleness as a temporary state or a permanent state. If you view it as a permanent thing you gradually realize all of the groups for singles by churches are pretty much mixers to get people married which feels kind of lonely. Also the Church focuses on the family to the neglect of celibacy which is detrimental to the priesthood…

Yes, I do see that. Though it remains quite unclear what the Church might do “on the ground” to improve the “climate” for, or otherwise assist, those on the “permanently single” track.

Perhaps those of us in a single state ought be moved to devote more of ourselves in service to others, and hopefully find at least some fulfilment there. I have to vote myself, in my single years, somewhat of a failure in that regard.

 

[Thorolfr]

The clash between the desire for a sexual relationship, and the Church’s teaching that such is wrong, is no doubt the basis of pain for many (and for sympathy and compassion on the part of a great many more). But it does not follow from this observation that the Church teaches error. The question to be asked is: How can the pain be alleviated, or managed to the extent possible?

The vast majority of LGBTQ people that I know, especially those raised in more conservative denominations, have become non-religious and even anti-religious because of their inability to reconcile their sexual orientation with their faith and because of the hostility that they experienced. It’s unfortunate that so many of them have lost their faith altogether because of this one issue.

 

[Rau]

…It’s unfortunate that so many of them have lost their faith altogether because of this one issue.

Lost their faith, or turned away from it - yes that is dreadfully sad. And for that reason, the Church must search for ways to evangelise more effectively.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Traditional Catholic teaching says that marriage today is strongly overvalued and that celibacy and friendship are undervalued. It is okay to love someone of the same sex, indeed it can be morally praiseworthy, it can also be good for you to express it intimately, it can help people grow in Christ. What is not okay is sex with the same sex and we both know that being gay isn’t about gay sex, it is about loving someone of the same sex.

So are you saying that, according to Catholic teaching and understanding, two gay people could love each other, even in romantic ways, as long as they don’t do so in a sexual manner???

 

[catholic1seeks]

Same sex love can be good, same sex sex is bad.

I think you will find most people on here disagreeing even with your first clause. I am assuming you mean more than mere friendship as your other post describes.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I have no problem with two men loving each other, for love has many forms. Your references to “gay relationships” may cloud what is in discussion. If not sexual, then are such not simply friendships, or familial relationships, however deep?

I really do not understand how anyone could misunderstand what I am referring to, considering the subject of this entire thread.

Everyone knows friendships are OK, even same-sex friendships. Most people have friendships of the same-sex, I’m willing to bet, at least at a young age.

I am of course referring to falling in love with someone of the same sex. Wanting to share your time with this person romantically. Wanting to bond with this person and share your life in a committed fashion.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Your experience is your experience. No one else has it. It should not be used spread falsehoods.

Truth exists for all, simultaneously, at times and all place.

Jesus is the Truth. If what you write is contrary to what He taught, your writing is false.

Experience gets to truth, my friend.

It helps us know what is right and wrong.

“By their fruits you shall know them.” - Jesus

I see the bad fruits from this teaching on the lives of many homosexual Christians.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The clash between the desire for a sexual relationship, and the Church’s teaching that such is wrong, is no doubt the basis of pain for many (and for sympathy and compassion on the part of a great many more). But it does not follow from this observation that the Church teaches error. The question to be asked is: How can the pain be alleviated, or managed to the extent possible?

You are very much correct. Thank you for realizing the struggle.

But such pain can allow us to call into question the teaching. After all, the natural moral law (which this traditional teaching is supposed to reflect) is supposed to lead to authentic human fulfillment. The Church’s teaching on marriage and sexuality is very beautiful… in the abstract. I think the Church’s understanding of marriage and sex would be very beautiful if it corresponded with all of humanity. But it simply does not. Look at the Supreme Court decision today. It happened only because there exist homosexual persons and other LGBTQ people. They do not fit under the “normal umbrella” of Catholic anthropology or reality.

For most of the Church’s history, slavery was accepted. It’s simply historical fact. Early writers of the Church spoke of it as part of “natural law,” at least their understanding of it. It is only through the experience and pain and struggle of those involved was the Church able to fully realize the Truth of the inherent immoral quality of slavery.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Their brains sure seem designed that way

Else they wouldn’t want to do it in the first place

If that is the case then perhaps, along with choice, we should look at homosexuality as a mental disorder and work for a treatment.

 

[Bookcat]

What is needed is many good “friendships” (not “relationships” in the common parlance)

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#II

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joie de Vivre View Post
Traditional Catholic teaching says that marriage today is strongly overvalued and that celibacy and friendship are undervalued. It is okay to love someone of the same sex, indeed it can be morally praiseworthy, it can also be good for you to express it intimately, it can help people grow in Christ. What is not okay is sex with the same sex and we both know that being gay isn’t about gay sex, it is about loving someone of the same sex.

So are you saying that, according to Catholic teaching and understanding, two gay people could love each other, even in romantic ways, as long as they don’t do so in a sexual manner???

Joie’s statement touches dangerous ground when she says: “it can also be good for you to express it intimately,”

However, your conclusion is correct.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Experience gets to truth, my friend.

It helps us know what is right and wrong.

“By their fruits you shall know them.” - Jesus

I see the bad fruits from this teaching on the lives of many homosexual Christians.

Hmmm…this sounds like Relativism.

Experience can be a good teacher but it is man’s ability to reason objectively…ithat gets to truth.

 

[catholic1seeks]

If that is the case then perhaps, along with choice, we should look at homosexuality as a mental disorder and work for a treatment.

Always a loophole.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Hmmm…this sounds like Relativism.

Experience can be a good teacher but it is man’s ability to reason objectively…ithat gets to truth.

It’s not relativism???
I believe in objective truths. That doesn’t mean we have the truth on every single subject.

It was experience that allowed the Church to finally evaluate the situation with slavery.