Homosexuality And Original Sin

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Romantic relationship? (and expressions of such?)

Couple?

Such would* not* describe how Christian persons with SSA would want to act…(aside from the “wanting” presented by temptation)

Rather: Friendships.
 
Romantic relationship? (and expressions of such?)

Couple?

Such would* not* describe how Christian persons with SSA would want to act…(aside from the “wanting” presented by temptation)

Rather: Friendships.
…as perceived by the eyes of Catholics and others but not all Christians.
 
…as perceived by the eyes of Catholics and others but not all Christians.
Your recent lengthy post refers to infallibility. Would I be right in assuming that an ex Cathedra statement by the Pope would not itself secure your acceptance that homosexual acts are immoral?
 
…as perceived by the eyes of Catholics and others but not all Christians.
“perceived as in - I perceive that God has made all that is…I perceive that murder is wrong…” Sure.

And So?

Perceiving reality is good.

Those do not accept reality - are in a problematic place.

Some Christians accept various gravely immoral things such as abortion etc?

Does that make it ok?

Even if the majority of person on this earth thought theft was good?

Does that make it so?

“Truth is not determined by a majority vote”

~ Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI)

And…the last time I looked this is the* Catholic* Answers Forum…
 
And the purpose of something when “misused” of its apparent natural design does not necessarily entail immorality. The mouth is designed for eating and breathing. Yet one can also use the mouth for kissing.
The mouth does not ejaculate semen into a receptacle carrying a human egg. :hmmm:

Morality aside, since it seems to make people so uncomfortable,

can you accept the most basic observation that not every use of an object or faculty is ordered to a natural purpose?

Or, in your opinion, is any and every use of a faculty or object properly ordered, based on the sentiment of the user?
 
The mouth does not ejaculate semen into a receptacle carrying a human egg. :hmmm:

Morality aside, since it seems to make people so uncomfortable,

can you accept the most basic observation that not every use of an object or faculty is ordered to a natural purpose?

Or, in your opinion, is any and every use of a faculty or object properly ordered, based on the sentiment of the user?
I think we emphasize the object of the act too much, over and against other factors.

Murder is wrong not because someone kills another but because someone intentionally takes an innocent life. In this case, it is not a physical act alone that decides but the circumstances surrounding the act. Perhaps we should view sexual expression in this way.
 
The norm that most people are heterosexual and therefore formed heterosexual unions also existed before the Church.
Yes, very true. Heterosexual unions existed before most religions were established. They also existed before any recognizable forms of government appeared. In every ancient civilized culture with a written history, these heterosexual unions were known exclusively as a marriage.
 
…Murder is wrong not because someone kills another but because someone intentionally takes an innocent life. In this case, it is not a physical act alone that decides but the circumstances surrounding the act. Perhaps we should view sexual expression in this way.
A context at least is needed to make words on a page, like “kill”, “sex” into moral acts that we can recognise. So, we can attach a moral meaning to fornication, murder and so on. This context is easily confused with intentions and circumstances (two of the 3 fonts or morality). Sexual acts between two men, or two unmarried persons, cannot be deemed licit by the circumstances (their deep mutual affection) because that moral act is of a kind “always wrong to choose” (intrinsically evil). We recognise intrinsically evil acts by their moral object. For example, murder, abortion, euthanasia all have the same moral object - depriving an innocent of life.
 
Romantic relationship? (and expressions of such?)

Couple?

Such would* not* describe how Christian persons with SSA would want to act…(aside from the “wanting” presented by temptation)

Rather: Friendships.
I don’t call them a couple, instead I call them pairing. I don’t call it love, instead I call it friendship or perversion. I don’t call it marriage, instead I refer to it as same-sex “marriage.”
 
No I would not say so.

Friendship…not romance.
The medieval view of friendship has a lot of overlap with our modern view of romance.
Yes, you have, but you also use the term “intimacy”. To most people that means sexual relations. “To cuddle and sleep in the same bed” is a form of intimacy but you have to be careful here. Cuddling and sleeping together can be a near occasion of sin for ANY couple.
It was okay in the Middle Ages 🤷
I am not being judgmental here. If someone tells me they sleep together and do not have sex. I believe them. Just as I believe someone who admits to using marijuana but claims not to inhale.
So you believe them, to be lying.
 
…One may claim that there exists a universal moral law, and therefore the moral evaluation of homosexual acts cannot ever change. After all, if homosexual activity is inherently wrong, then indeed it cannot be true one day and wrong another.That is one thing. But people at the time of Leviticus or Paul did not understood the morality of homosexuality as we do because they simply did not understand homosexuality in the same way.
They did not have benefit of Aquinas’s exposition of natural law, but I think it is a mistake to say they did not know that men lying with men is wrong.

In his first letter to the Corinthians (6:9), the apostle identifies homosexuals among those who will not enter the Kingdom of God.

In the letter to the Romans (1:18-32), St. Paul uses homosexual behavior as an example of the blindness which has overcome human beings. Instead of the original harmony between Creator and creatures, idolatry has lead many people into moral depravity. The clearest example of this depravity is the practice of homosexuality.

Finally in the first chapter of his first letter to Timothy, St. Paul singles out the sin of homosexuality as evidence of heretical doctrine.
The modern church refers to homosexual activity in relation to natural moral law and inherently sinful acts. Scripture does not indicate homosexual behavior as being inherently sinful. There is no reason from the Bible to think that each and every gay act is “intrinsically evil.” There is no reason to think the Bible in any place is talking about committed homosexual relationships. …
So, what are your thoughts on sexual acts between “committed” persons, perhaps those in a steady dating relationship, perhaps engaged to be married? What do you understand Scripture teaches about that? Paul writes in I Corinthians 7:2, *“Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife and every woman have her own husband”. * He properly identifies “marriage” - not commitment - as the proper venue for sexual relationship. For the record, the Church teaches all forms of fornication are intrinsically evil.

In regard to homosexual acts - it seems to me you simply wave away the fact that there is not a single positive reference in Scripture to homosexual relationships. You wave away the fact that all references that speak to unions (marriage) speak of the coming together of a man and a woman - never any other case. And you so easily ignore that all references to homosexual relationships in Scripture are consistently “negative”. Do you truly believe that we (or you) now have some deeper understanding whereby - subject to the right “commitment” - one never before recognised in Scripture or by Christ’s Church - two men act properly and nobly when they sexually engage with each other?
It is a shame one cannot be Catholic because one disagrees with one point of teaching that is not even dogma. Also, teaching on sexuality has not been defined ex cathedra or ecumenical council so there is some degree of development possible you would admit and at least some sense this teaching is “current.”
The Church does not need to teach ex cathedra or via ecumenical council to teach infallibly.
 
I think we emphasize the object of the act too much, over and against other factors.
So then a starving child’s stomach is not really bloated. We do tend to overemphasize the physical realities. Right?
Murder is wrong not because someone kills another but because someone intentionally takes an innocent life. In this case, it is not a physical act alone that decides but the circumstances surrounding the act. Perhaps we should view sexual expression in this way.
In every case, murder deprives another person of life.
 
If anyone claims the name Catholic or Christian, they claim Jesus Christ as true God and true Man. Christ is a divine person with a complete and whole human nature.

In relation to this conversation you might say “yea so what?”

Consider that God gives himself to us not as a spiritual phantasm, but in real human flesh. This is an undeniable and objective reality of our faith. God’s most complete revelation of himself is through the objective physical reality of his own flesh. In other words, God has revealed to us in a non-optional manner that human flesh has a deep meaning. This is God’s choice, as he was not required to take on a body. He chose to reveal himself in human nature.

Jesus hungered. He thirsted, went to the bathroom, got sore feet, he really and substantially suffered torture and death. And, he really and substantially rose his flesh from the dead. He gave himself for his bride the Church in a real and substantial manner. When he rose he kept his flesh, he did not discard it as something that was “overemphasized”. The Christian faith is not based merely in emotion and sentiment. We are called to see and hear and touch what God reveals in real and substantial human nature. The whole foundation of human dignity comes from the incarnation of Christ.

If God reveals to us the deep meaning of the human body, who are we as Christians to deny him? This is what we do when we claim that what God reveals in nature is not very meaningful. In short, we deny the incarnation of Christ.
 
In his first letter to the Corinthians (6:9), the apostle identifies homosexuals among those who will not enter the Kingdom of God.

In the letter to the Romans (1:18-32), St. Paul uses homosexual behavior as an example of the blindness which has overcome human beings…

So, what are your thoughts on sexual acts between “committed” persons, perhaps those in a steady dating relationship, perhaps engaged to be married? What do you understand Scripture teaches about that?..

In regard to homosexual acts - it seems to me you simply wave away the fact that there is not a single positive reference in Scripture to homosexual relationships. You wave away the fact that all references that speak to unions (marriage) speak of the coming together of a man and a woman - never any other case…
(1) It is well known that the term “homosexual” did not exist before the 19th century. Any translation of any text in Scripture to “homosexual” is not equivalent to the original word. In fact, in the 1 Corinthians passage you mention, that translator combined two different terms to the one word “homosexuals.” These two Greek terms in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10—malakoi and arsenokoitai—are sometimes translated to mean that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God. It is important to remember that in Paul’s day, there was no concept of homosexual orientation. What these two terms are actually referring to is not definitively known, and this is reflected by the various translations: The NKJV simply renders the two terms together as “homosexuals,” as your translation does, whereas the NAB translates them as “boy prostitutes” and “sodomites.” The NRSVCE similarly translates the two terms as “male prostitutes and sodomites.” The NIV says “men who have sex with men.”

However, even though these different translations suggest homosexual behavior, it is probable that that is not what is even being emphasized: Malakoi probably means something like effeminate, which would have described those lacking in self-control, but not necessarily anything homosexual. In fact, many ancient uses of this word are related to men who indulged in women, not men. There are very few instances of *arsenokoitai *used after Paul, but all the instances seem to relate to economic exploitation through sexual means, not to any general gay activity.

(2) In Romans, Paul was not speaking about homosexuality as we understand it because he did not understand homosexuality as we do so today. He is not focused on people with a homosexual orientation because that classification did not exist in the ancient world. He speaks of people “exchanging” natural relations for unnatural ones. This is the same use of “nature” Paul uses when talking about head covering for women, men’s hair length, and shame in 1 Corinthians, but we don’t take that natural to be in reference to an objective, universal moral law. We can’t layer our understanding of words like “natural” over these texts when they did not have the same understanding.

When we understand the type of homosexual behavior common at the time of Paul, prevalent in the Greco-Roman world, it is easy to see that he is referring to sexual excess, homosexual behavior that anyone could fall into. His point is that certain homosexual activity is a symptom of the fallen world of the Gentiles who abandoned the true God because what they are seeking after is a form of excess. Some ancient commentators spoke of men going after men instead of women because it was more challenging. Homosexual behavior was seen as an expression of lust as it was not seen as something relational but as recreational.

John Chrysostom, a well-known fourth century Church father, was harsh, saying homosexual acts are worse than murder. But commenting on Romans, the church father says that Paul was not talking about men who fell in love but rather men who lust after each other. Some people today read Paul’s words as a condemnation of homosexual activity in itself, as if each and every homosexual act were objectively wrong. But that is a modern reading influenced by traditional notions of natural law. It betrays the text to think Paul is condemning all homosexual expression, especially that within a committed couple, which was not even a realized concept in his day.

(3) Of course all references to marriage in the Bible are to male-female couples. There was no such thing as a gay marriage of two equal same-sex partners in these times. The biblical writers assume marriage to consist of male-female partners just at the writers assumed slavery to be part of society. Just because writers talk about slavery and use it as illustrations does not mean society cannot exist in any other way. Marriage has traditionally been between man and woman because most people are attracted to members of the opposite sex, and this causes children, and therefore the need to form family units. We are not biblical fundamentalists; not everything is contained in Scripture, especially explicitly. So we should not expect every single detail about life to be contained in Scripture. The Bible may be negative towards certain homosexual activity, but it never speaks to what we are talking about today. Most people I know who are for LGBTQ rights are not seeking lust or sexual exploitation but rather the ability for gay people to share a life of love with their partners.
 
If anyone claims the name Catholic or Christian, they claim Jesus Christ as true God and true Man. Christ is a divine person with a complete and whole human nature.

In relation to this conversation you might say “yea so what?”

Consider that God gives himself to us not as a spiritual phantasm, but in real human flesh. This is an undeniable and objective reality of our faith. God’s most complete revelation of himself is through the objective physical reality of his own flesh. In other words, God has revealed to us in a non-optional manner that human flesh has a deep meaning. This is God’s choice, as he was not required to take on a body. He chose to reveal himself in human nature.

Jesus hungered. He thirsted, went to the bathroom, got sore feet, he really and substantially suffered torture and death. And, he really and substantially rose his flesh from the dead. He gave himself for his bride the Church in a real and substantial manner. When he rose he kept his flesh, he did not discard it as something that was “overemphasized”. The Christian faith is not based merely in emotion and sentiment. We are called to see and hear and touch what God reveals in real and substantial human nature. The whole foundation of human dignity comes from the incarnation of Christ.

If God reveals to us the deep meaning of the human body, who are we as Christians to deny him? This is what we do when we claim that what God reveals in nature is not very meaningful. In short, we deny the incarnation of Christ.
I agree that the incarnation is very beautiful and meaningful, but that does not mean we have the correct understanding of sex.

I would never say that the body is not important, especially to Christianity. But oftentimes I think that Catholic teaching tends to focus primarily on the external aspects of the body over and against other factors that influence and make up who we are physically. For example, the brain – altogether physical and part of the body – has a role in why people are homosexual in the first place.
 
I agree that the incarnation is very beautiful and meaningful, but that does not mean we have the correct understanding of sex.
Maybe the understanding of sex is overrated.
Sex is an expression of a very deep theological reality. Our bodies directly express that reality in the way we are made. Male and female have a unique complementarity that cannot be duplicated by any other “union”. This complementarity has it’s ultimate expression in Father loving Son loving Spirit, always a creative love among persons. This complementarity is hard to understand, yet it is plainly revealed in our human nature.

So sexuality, before it can be understood, must first be correctly and simply observed as God reveals it. If we cannot perceive accurately what God has plainly revealed, there cannot be honest discussion. Receptivity to what God reveals is a key step in having a truthful relationship with him and with others.
We are asked repeatedly in the Gospel “to see”, “to hear”. Christ uses phrases such as “you have heard that it was said”, and, “those who have ears should hear”…Christ does not ask us to first understand a grand concept, he asks us to “have an honest look at what’s in front of our very eyes and ears”.
The gospels are full of these phrases

“If you see your brother hungry”,
“If you see your brother is in need”.
So, we can’t pretend **to understand **sexuality fully as God knows it, but we can have the humility **to observe **and accept what he plainly reveals. How can one understand what he refuses to see and observe???

God reveals that our flesh is sacred, it has a purpose and a significance. We are created male and female. For us to exist requires the union of a male and female. Our flesh is united to our souls to make us complete human beings.
God creates us in his image. His image is that of the word made flesh. That is the image we share with him.
It’s important that we are created body and soul, it’s important that we are male and female, it’s important that we have stomachs that need to be fed, and bodies that require shelter and water.
If it wasn’t important, then Jesus Christ would not have become one of us, right??
Jesus Christ is not God’s random accident, he is God’s intentional gift of himself in human flesh. God gives us himself in the person of his Son Jesus Christ, who existed in time and space with a real and substantial human male body.
I would never say that the body is not important, especially to Christianity. But oftentimes I think that Catholic teaching tends to focus primarily on the external aspects of the body over and against other factors that influence and make up who we are physically. For example, the brain – altogether physical and part of the body – has a role in why people are homosexual in the first place.
Human beings are a unity of body and soul. The two are inseparable. Catholic teaching does not focus on one without the other.

I can’t pretend to know why some people are attracted to the same sex. They simply are. Ok fine. The fact that they are attracted to same sex does not change how human beings are made.
It doesn’t change the fact that without the union of a man and woman, you and I cannot exist to even have this discussion.
 
Maybe the understanding of sex is overrated.
Sex is an expression of a very deep theological reality. Our bodies directly express that reality in the way we are made. Male and female have a unique complementarity that cannot be duplicated by any other “union”. This complementarity has it’s ultimate expression in Father loving Son loving Spirit, always a creative love among persons. This complementarity is hard to understand, yet it is plainly revealed in our human nature.

So sexuality, before it can be understood, must first be correctly and simply observed as God reveals it. If we cannot perceive accurately what God has plainly revealed, there cannot be honest discussion. Receptivity to what God reveals is a key step in having a truthful relationship with him and with others.
We are asked repeatedly in the Gospel “to see”, “to hear”. Christ uses phrases such as “you have heard that it was said”, and, “those who have ears should hear”…Christ does not ask us to first understand a grand concept, he asks us to “have an honest look at what’s in front of our very eyes and ears”.
The gospels are full of these phrases

“If you see your brother hungry”,
“If you see your brother is in need”.
So, we can’t pretend **to understand **sexuality fully as God knows it, but we can have the humility **to observe **and accept what he plainly reveals. How can one understand what he refuses to see and observe???

God reveals that our flesh is sacred, it has a purpose and a significance. We are created male and female. For us to exist requires the union of a male and female. Our flesh is united to our souls to make us complete human beings.
God creates us in his image. His image is that of the word made flesh. That is the image we share with him.
It’s important that we are created body and soul, it’s important that we are male and female, it’s important that we have stomachs that need to be fed, and bodies that require shelter and water.
If it wasn’t important, then Jesus Christ would not have become one of us, right??
Jesus Christ is not God’s random accident, he is God’s intentional gift of himself in human flesh. God gives us himself in the person of his Son Jesus Christ, who existed in time and space with a real and substantial human male body.

Human beings are a unity of body and soul. The two are inseparable. Catholic teaching does not focus on one without the other.

I can’t pretend to know why some people are attracted to the same sex. They simply are. Ok fine. The fact that they are attracted to same sex does not change how human beings are made.
It doesn’t change the fact that without the union of a man and woman, you and I cannot exist to even have this discussion.
The two issues I see are:
(1) What, exactly, is the nature of this complementarity? Many people with traditional Christian leanings speak of complementarity of the sexes. But what does this entail and how do we know? I can observe many same-sex couples complementing each other in various ways. Every couple is different because every person is different; every person has a different psychology. Gender roles and expectations are culturally conditioned. So is this complementarity a purely biological one, then? Well sure, males and females go together lock-and-key to make a baby, but why should we conclude therefore that only a heterosexual couple should express their love together in a sexual way? Where in the Bible is complementarity discussed in the way you mean it?

(2) We observe how babies are naturally made, yes. But we also observe that there is a good chunk of the population who naturally want to express themselves sexually with members of the same sex. I of course do not mean to reduce this to sex; one’s sexual orientation allows for a whole means of relating to other persons; it’s not just an “inclination” to commit certain acts. But of course in this discussion, the sexual acts are emphasized.
 
The two issues I see are:
(1) What, exactly, is the nature of this complementarity? Many people with traditional Christian leanings speak of complementarity of the sexes. But what does this entail and how do we know? I can observe many same-sex couples complementing each other in various ways. Every couple is different because every person is different; every person has a different psychology. Gender roles and expectations are culturally conditioned. So is this complementarity a purely biological one, then? Well sure, males and females go together lock-and-key to make a baby, but why should we conclude therefore that only a heterosexual couple should express their love together in a sexual way? Where in the Bible is complementarity discussed in the way you mean it?

(2) We observe how babies are naturally made, yes. But we also observe that there is a good chunk of the population who naturally want to express themselves sexually with members of the same sex. I of course do not mean to reduce this to sex; one’s sexual orientation allows for a whole means of relating to other persons; it’s not just an “inclination” to commit certain acts. But of course in this discussion, the sexual acts are emphasized.
As Clem said - we have to see what is before us. Two best friends, a group of football players, complement each other in the skills they posses, and the roles they play. But I contend that is far less obvious to those with eyes than the complementary sexual nature of man and woman. I cannot explain it, but I can plainly see the way God has bound procreative potential into man’s sexual expression. It is not incidental. It is not absent when the man desires another male partner. This procreative potential surely speaks to the nature of the act, and thus makes clear the intended partner?

Sexual expression is desired in many situations where it would be wrong. Morality can’t be adjusted to fit desires simply because the desire exists.
 
When it comes to marriage, complementarity always begins with sexual complementarity, which is essential to the institution of marriage. The union of male and female is physically both unitive and potentially procreative. There are other kinds of complementarity but they do not replace sexual complementarity.
 
This a very nearsighted approach to say that the teaching was “no different” at the time of the Levitical Laws from today’s Catholic magisterium. One may claim that there exists a universal moral law, and therefore the moral evaluation of homosexual acts cannot ever change. After all, if homosexual activity is inherently wrong, then indeed it cannot be true one day and wrong another.That is one thing. But people at the time of Leviticus or **Paul did not understood the morality of homosexuality as we do because they simply did not understand homosexuality in the same way. **The modern church refers to homosexual activity in relation to natural moral law and inherently sinful acts. Scripture does not indicate homosexual behavior as being inherently sinful. There is no reason from the Bible to think that each and every gay act is “intrinsically evil.” **There is no reason to think the Bible in any place is talking about committed homosexual relationships. **We like to layer our modern concept of natural moral law on top of biblical passages, but there was no such developed concept then. It may be in error to think various authors are referring to acts as in and of themselves wrong.
So your argument is that homosexual acts can be or are wrong but not in a committed homosexual relationship. That Paul and the early Church had no understanding of committed homosexual relationships and if they understood the concept, the teaching against all expressed homosexuality would not have been instituted.

Okay, as exercise, let’s take Paul’s admonition in Romans 1:26-27

*“For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” *

First, that does not read like Paul was only referring to homosexual behavior (sexual acts) separate from a homosexual relationship, committed or not.

Second, it strains credibility that homosexual behavior could be absent in homosexual relationship of which we speak. You concede that physical expression of homosexual desire is a component in a homosexual relationship. The distinction you make between homosexual behavior and homosexual relationship is therefore irrelevant. Sexual acts (involving the genitals) in any and all forms short of or including sodomia perfecta in a homosexual relationship were always and still are considered sinful.

Third, that Paul could not have known or was not aware that true love can exist between two homosexuals, implies that he was ignorant of a form of exalted homosexual love that is pure and right in the eyes of God. On the contrary, Paul was high minded Hellenic Jew, one of the most educated men of his day. Raised in Tarsus, the third most intellectual city in the world, ranking behind Athens and Alexandria then, Paul knew the Stoic poets and studied Greek literature and culture. It would be naïve to think that Paul was not cognizant of the fact that certain Greeks regarded homosexuality as the highest form of love. It is also arrogant to conclude that Paul and the early Church knew nothing of exalted homosexual love.

If you believe self serving “research” and writings of historians like John Boswell, our time has arrived at the pinnacle of some new form of thought or practice. “That which has been is what will be, that which is done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 1:9). The 21st century may be the most inventive and progressive time period so far, but it is doubtful that it invented the idea of a loving homosexual relationship.

Fourth, and importantly, you are in effect discounting the inspiration by the Holy Spirit of Scripture, these parts of the NT on homosexual relations, specifically, that there was a lapse on God’s part in letting error in the recording of His Word and meaning. To follow such error, other parts of Scripture would or should be up for grabs, other transgressions regarded by a Christian or Catholic as no longer sins given enough human justification.

In short, to claim that homosexual relationships, those that may be faithful and committed, would have been morally approved is revisionist interpretation, to justify rejection of behavior of homosexual partners clearly prohibited in the holy book.
It is a shame one cannot be Catholic because one disagrees with one point of teaching that is not even dogma. Also, teaching on sexuality has not been defined ex cathedra or ecumenical council so there is some degree of development possible you would admit and at least some sense this teaching is “current.”
The teaching is doctrinal and the issue is one of faith and morals unchanging according to time and place. It is infallible teaching. The individuals mentioned, founders of New Ways Ministry and Dignity, were recalcitrant in their insistence that an exception be made for homosexuality, in the name of a narrowed definition of love and compassion. These Catholics made the choice to step out of the tent.

With respect, you lament the same points, even extensibly doing in the thread you opened “Can the Catholic Church Ever Change Her Teaching on Homosexuality.” What do you hope to achieve in this forum? You received all the answers to your question. There are scores of threads on this site submitted by others where your same arguments have been hashed and rehashed. They are rendered unpersuasive under scrutiny, rebutted by many Catholic members (much more learned than I am). If you would bother to check, this site offers tracts and articles by CAF staff apologists on the subject.
 
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