Homosexuality

[Tlaloc]

Lisa N:

Anyone who hides behind a pseudonym will always be suspect.

Lisa, it’s the internet, giving people your real name is an invitation to trouble. Regardless of what you may think of me take this one tip: protect your identity on the net.

If you are not 'Ken" “Zoot” et all, you are his twin. Same style, same crusades, same attitude.

Well if “ken/zoot” were physical scientists then it’s not unlikely we’d have some similar approaches to things. I found that half of physics was learning how to approach problems rationally and break them down into managable components.

First I never said sexual frustration causes ‘no’ harm but the idea that the average person who is stimulated but unable to engage is going to explode is utterly ridiculous or we’d have had many exploding, violent, rampaging teenage boys over the years.

So we agree that sexual frustration causes some harm but not enough to cause spontaneous combustion? I can live with that.

Sexually violent individuals are a completely different animal and I do mean that literally. You cannot claim that the damage done by a Ted Bundy, a Jeffrey Dahmer, a Dayton Leroy Rogers, a Gary Leon Ridgeway is caused by ANYTHING like normal sexual frustration that probably every human being experiences at some point in time. Only the tiny minority act out violently and there is always the question, did the violence come first or was it the sex?

Obviously sexually motivated killers represent an extreme that few ever reach. Still the potential of such grievous harm should make us question the health of any repressive sexual environment.

Or are you saying that if homosexuals in general are unable to get sexual gratification their way, they will all turn into seriel killers? Can’t have it both ways Tlaloc/Ken/Zoot.

No not at all. What I’m saying is that having an unhealthy attitude towards sex can cause very severe problems. Cultures that wallow in repression seem to find their urges expressed in less healthy ways.

So you have a more esthetic description of sodomy? Somehow it is hard NOT to consider the grotesquery. After all we are using body parts for activities never intended and the results are really not very pretty.

When you talk you are using body parts as never intended. As for sodomy, yes, I’m sure we can discuss it in terms as flowery and delicate as those used for other forms of sex.

I didn’t say it was a ‘gay disease’ as that depends entirely on the country you are referring to. OTOH given that black women were such a tiny minority of cases, any increase represents a higher percentage increase than if you were talking about a majority population. Can you post figures about which groups have the highest incidence of AIDS? Something tells me that in the US the homosexual male is still in the lead in this macabre race.

Slightly under half of US cases as of 2003 were homosexual males:
avert.org/statsum.htm

 

[Tlaloc]

StJeanneDArc:

Back when he was “Ken” on the defunct politics forum I tried to draw him out on his political stances as he sounded Libertarian in an Ayn Randish kind of way, but no luck–he wouldn’t rise to the bait.

That’s definitely not me. My political philosophy is a form of anarchism. I have some small measure of respect for what Ayn Rand said but not how people have come to interpret her.

 

[serendipity]

*pro-life_teen*:

I face a similar situation at my small, Catholic high school. It’s impossible to state your views and not be labeled a “homophobe.” (Which, may I point out, medically doesn’t even exist- I’ve never heard of a documented, medically accurate, diagnosed case of actual homophobia (correct me if I’m wrong). You know, in the sense that people who have agoraphobia CANNOT be in public places without medication)

Well, racism and prejudice and sexism are not biological dieseases either, but it does not mean that people form the KKK are without problems that could be termed a diseased mentality.

 

[Lisa_N]

Tlaloc:

Lisa, it’s the internet, giving people your real name is an invitation to trouble. Regardless of what you may think of me take this one tip: protect your identity on the net.

Yes and I am not giving first and last name, along with address although the PM feature on CAF does allow off list discussion. I hardly fear any of my fellow posters showing up on my doorstep.

Tlaloc:

Well if “ken/zoot” were physical scientists then it’s not unlikely we’d have some similar approaches to things. I found that half of physics was learning how to approach problems rationally and break them down into managable components. .

I’m not sure what this has to do with the issue. Ken/Zoot was an apologist for the homosexual agenda. Just by strange coincidence he used the same argument and posted the same statistics about African American women being the group with the highest increase in HIV/AIDS thereby tossing in a red herring to disguise the reality that in THIS country the homosexual male population and their behavior allowed this public health issue to explode into epidemic proportions.

Tlaloc:

So we agree that sexual frustration causes some harm but not enough to cause spontaneous combustion? I can live with that.

Obviously sexually motivated killers represent an extreme that few ever reach. Still the potential of such grievous harm should make us question the health of any repressive sexual environment.

You have not proven that not acting upon every sexual urge is “sexual repression.” There are many instances when it is inappropriate to act upon a sexual urge. My understanding is that teen boys have a sexual thought every few seconds. Thank heavens even at that tender age they manage to control themselves! If a man has a sexual urge that focuses on young boys (or young girls) is demanding that he restrain himself “repression?” Don’t be ridiculous.

Tlaloc:

No not at all. What I’m saying is that having an unhealthy attitude towards sex can cause very severe problems. Cultures that wallow in repression seem to find their urges expressed in less healthy ways.

Again an ‘unhealthy’ attitude toward sex if not with respect to any authority is simply a matter of opinion. And the idea that the US wallows in repression of sex is HILARIOUS. I think a lot of the problem in this country is in NOT repressing sexual desires. After all we are supposed to be above rutting animals driven by instinctual behaviors.

And not simply with respect to sex. We all have many emotions, passions, and urges that simply MUST be repressed if society is not to become totally chaotic. It’s the failure to repress these passions amongst individuals is a serious problem. Most folks in the criminal justice system are there because they didn’t repress their desires to do violence to others. Most are unable to deal with anger or frustration. Would a more ‘healthy’ attitude suggest that the person simply act upon any base urge or desire?

Tlaloc:

When you talk you are using body parts as never intended. As for sodomy, yes, I’m sure we can discuss it in terms as flowery and delicate as those used for other forms of sex.

Oh I don’t think so. But you are welcome to try to describe how encountering e. coli up close and personal is a beautiful experience. Sodomy never results in creating new life. It has no potential to be anything but self gratification. Somehow even in biological terms I just can’t wrap myself around the mantra that sodomy is beautiful.

Tlaloc:

Slightly under half of US cases as of 2003 were homosexual males:
avert.org/statsum.htm

Yes and what percentage of the population consists of homosexual males? IOW compare this to another communicable disease like measles. Would you expect half of the cases to be from a population that makes up 3% of the total? Figures lie and liars figure. It is still a homosexual disease if you compare the actual incidence within the population.

Lisa N

 

[Tlaloc]

Lisa N:

Yes and I am not giving first and last name, along with address although the PM feature on CAF does allow off list discussion. I hardly fear any of my fellow posters showing up on my doorstep.

Then are not you too using a pseudonym of sorts?

I’m not sure what this has to do with the issue.

Someone commented on similarities between posts of mine and another poster, I was offering a possible explanation.

Ken/Zoot was an apologist for the homosexual agenda. Just by strange coincidence he used the same argument and posted the same statistics about African American women being the group with the highest increase in HIV/AIDS thereby tossing in a red herring to disguise the reality that in THIS country the homosexual male population and their behavior allowed this public health issue to explode into epidemic proportions.

He may have used the same argument because it’s, well, correct. I’m hardly going to vary in my arguments about the existence of gravity from most others because the conventional argument pretty well resolves the issue. I didn’t realize he had quoted the same statistic as I had. That’s certainly much more of a coincidence than simply arguing along similar lines.

Lastly it’s not a red herring, it was a correction of your (apparently still maintained) perception that AIDS is a gay disease. It reached epidemic proportions first among the homosexual community but (obviously due to the segregation of the two) would have reached its current levels among heterosexuals anyway.

You have not proven that not acting upon every sexual urge is “sexual repression.”

Nor would I try to. Not acting on every sexual act is simply self control. But castigating every sexual act except a very limited number is in fact repression.

Again an ‘unhealthy’ attitude toward sex if not with respect to any authority is simply a matter of opinion. And the idea that the US wallows in repression of sex is HILARIOUS. I think a lot of the problem in this country is in NOT repressing sexual desires. After all we are supposed to be above rutting animals driven by instinctual behaviors.

You’re mistaken then. Our society is extremely repressive sexually. An open society would discuss sex without it being either taboo or titilating. The reason you don’t see our society as repressive is becuase you are looking at the end result rather than the root cause. The root is that society represses, the result is that sex becomes cheapened. It’s relegated to tawdry commercials and trash TV. Having “I want to sleep with my stripper step-mom” on Jerry Springer isn’t the sign of an open society but a closed one. One that has become sickened.

And not simply with respect to sex. We all have many emotions, passions, and urges that simply MUST be repressed if society is not to become totally chaotic. It’s the failure to repress these passions amongst individuals is a serious problem. Most folks in the criminal justice system are there because they didn’t repress their desires to do violence to others. Most are unable to deal with anger or frustration. Would a more ‘healthy’ attitude suggest that the person simply act upon any base urge or desire?

A more healthy attitude says to look at the root causes rather than the symptoms.

Sodomy never results in creating new life. It has no potential to be anything but self gratification. Somehow even in biological terms I just can’t wrap myself around the mantra that sodomy is beautiful.

Well it has the potential to be *mutual *gratification. An expression of love or affection. Whether you like it or not really doesn’t matter except in your personal choices with your partner(s). But to deny it can be as meaningful an act between two people as vaginal sex can is simply naive.

Yes and what percentage of the population consists of homosexual males? IOW compare this to another communicable disease like measles. Would you expect half of the cases to be from a population that makes up 3% of the total? Figures lie and liars figure. It is still a homosexual disease if you compare the actual incidence within the population.

Like I said you seem determined to cling to your prejudiced view of AIDS regardless of the facts. I’ll stop trying to educate you on that matter now.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Here are some examples of homosexuality:

Jeffrey Dahmer carpenoctem.tv/killers/dahmer.html

John Wayne Gacy carpenoctem.tv/killers/gacy.html

Ed Gein carpenoctem.tv/killers/gein.html

Aileen Wournos carpenoctem.tv/killers/wournos.html

Richard Speck carpenoctem.tv/killers/speck.html

Richard Speck mayhem.net/Crime/speck.html

Henry Lee Lucas carpenoctem.tv/killers/lucas.html

Andrew Cunanan carpenoctem.tv/killers/cun.html

Homosexuality was all attributed to their impetus to commit their bizzare crimes and live out their dysfunctional lifestyles.

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

Here are some examples of homosexuality:

Jeffrey Dahmer carpenoctem.tv/killers/dahmer.html

John Wayne Gacy carpenoctem.tv/killers/gacy.html

Ed Gein carpenoctem.tv/killers/gein.html

Aileen Wournos carpenoctem.tv/killers/wournos.html

Richard Speck carpenoctem.tv/killers/speck.html

Richard Speck mayhem.net/Crime/speck.html

Henry Lee Lucas carpenoctem.tv/killers/lucas.html

Andrew Cunanan carpenoctem.tv/killers/cun.html

Homosexuality was all attributed to their impetus to commit their bizzare crimes and live out their dysfunctional lifestyles.

I love it when people prove my point and don’t realize it. Domo arigato!

 

[Island_Oak]

Batgirl1415:

…But, yeah, onto my point. The thing is, there’s no proof that homosexuality is bilogical, but there’s no proof that it’s not either. I’m just thinking though, what if they found something that prooves homosexuality to be biological and they really can’t help it?

God wouldn’t allow that though would he? It wouldn’t make sense. I just want to be reassured that it’s a choice.

God “allows” all sorts of things to happen that present challenges–physical and moral–to us humans. My son was born with a birth defect, which though managable and treatable–will present him with any number of challenges as he grows. I no longer look upon this as a “mistake.” As a parent, it has challenged me and made me much more accepting and compassionate towards others with a variety of challenges. My son, along with his siblings will inevitably have a conscience formed by compassion, patience and love for those who are visibly less than “perfect.” As so often is true in this life, the struggle opens you up to blessings you would have missed if you had sailed through life unafflicted.

Homosexuality may be analogous. I don’t doubt a genetic/biological component exists for some segment of that population. It makes this a vexing issue because we are called to separate our feelings, judgment and tolerance of the conduct from that of the person. It is a profoundly different challenge to accept a purely physical affliction than one which involves or manifests itself through behavior. The best way around this for me is to remind myself that EACH of us is made in the image of God and that none of us are here by mistake, but by virtue of being part of a divine plan.

 

[kmktexas]

Tell me when you are done engaging in grotesque stereotypes. I’ll wait.
By the way you did know that heterosexual black women replaced homosexuals as the group reporting the largest increase in AIDS cases?

But you left out the most important part of that article

Contributing to the alarming rate of infection are a variety of factors, including unprotected sex, sex with multiple partners, needlesharing among intravenous drug users, and the growing population of “down-low Brothers” –

men who do not consider themselves gay or bisexual, but engage in sex with both men and women.

It is the homosexual ACTS of the husbands and partners that are leading to the infection rate of those heterosexual black women.

If homosexuality were someday proven to have a genetic or biological basis, it would still be no different than any other physical defect. All defects in God’s perfect Creation are a result of the fallen state of man, original sin, they are not created by God.
So, even if found to be genetic, it still could not be said that “God made me this way”. Not any more than he “made” a baby with a deformed heart or muscular dystrophy. Those conditions were caused by defective genes as well.

Exactly. Another analogy is schizophrenia. There are many studies showing a genetic link to this disease. The disease drastically alters ones view of the world without impairing any of the normal physical functions of the body. Would any rational person try to deny medical care or psychiatric assistance to a schizophrenic just because the disease is genetically linked? Yet people routinely do that for people suffering from homosexual tendencies.

 

[Brad]

Laurel:

Whe I was a C.C.D teacher, our coordinator called a lesson in the cafeteria on the subject, and told the kids that it was something people are born with… but the church does not allow us to act on it because it is wrong. I dunno, sorry.

There is zero evidence of what you coordinator taught those children. This was irresponsible action.

 

[Brad]

Lisa N:

Yes the smoke of Satan possibly.

Without a doubt.

 

[Brad]

Edwin1961:

Let me put a more personal perspective on this topic…if you have read some of my past threads, then you will know what I am about to write.

For personal experiences, I was Led into the homosexual lifestyle because of my environment. I do not believe anything like this is biological. The early esperiences that I had growing up lead me to the life I Once lead for 27 years of my life.

Due to a handicap, my father allowed my mother to meet my needs. My father still lived at home, BUT there wasn’t that "MALE bonding between father and son going on.’
AND from personally discussing with active persons in the homosexual lifestyle, I had heard of their parents being divorced, or the absence of one parent in the person’s life while growning up.

I am a strong believer in the ‘family unit’ and the special Graces God gives for this family orientation. Since divorce became rampant in the last 50 years of the 20th. century, you can see the rise in the ‘gay’ acceptance and the like. It was also in this time, the early 50’s, that secretively and private ‘gay’ organizations began to arise. (Take it from me, when in that lifestyle, I used to read up a lot on ‘gay history’.

If this is truly biological, I would suspect that the % of people ‘truly homosezual’ would be nill and not a major factor.

As a Catholic, I am also a firm believer in the whole ‘sin situation’ and the spiritual world-at-war with the earthly world. Do I have proof, not really but if one is spiritually in tune with events going on today and throughout your life, you actually KNOW that times are NOT what they used to be, even 20 years ago.

WIth that I will say that the struggles in the schools today is the battleground and will be either won or lost due to the lack of 'the truth about homosexual lifestyle being Not what God had intended.

IF given the title of ‘intolerant’, 'homophob, or any such other, I would wear it proudly for Christ, considering I once WAS on the other side and hurled such words.

Be strong!
God IS with Us!
Edwin

Makes solid sense - something the culture is not into.

 

[Brad]

Batgirl1415:

I have a question though. How can homosexuality be genetic? That would mean that one of the parents is homosexual wouldn’t it?
Which would mean it could be traced back to Adam and Eve who were most certainly not homosexual.

It is not genetic. It is environmental.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Tlaloc:

I love it when people prove my point and don’t realize it. Domo arigato!

You have a point? So far you have made a series of pointless allegations and loose criticisms without an argument?

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Edwin1961:

Let me put a more personal perspective on this topic…if you have read some of my past threads, then you will know what I am about to write.

For personal experiences, I was Led into the homosexual lifestyle because of my environment. I do not believe anything like this is biological. The early esperiences that I had growing up lead me to the life I Once lead for 27 years of my life.

Due to a handicap, my father allowed my mother to meet my needs. My father still lived at home, BUT there wasn’t that "MALE bonding between father and son going on.’
AND from personally discussing with active persons in the homosexual lifestyle, I had heard of their parents being divorced, or the absence of one parent in the person’s life while growning up.

I am a strong believer in the ‘family unit’ and the special Graces God gives for this family orientation. Since divorce became rampant in the last 50 years of the 20th. century, you can see the rise in the ‘gay’ acceptance and the like. It was also in this time, the early 50’s, that secretively and private ‘gay’ organizations began to arise. (Take it from me, when in that lifestyle, I used to read up a lot on ‘gay history’.

If this is truly biological, I would suspect that the % of people ‘truly homosezual’ would be nill and not a major factor.

As a Catholic, I am also a firm believer in the whole ‘sin situation’ and the spiritual world-at-war with the earthly world. Do I have proof, not really but if one is spiritually in tune with events going on today and throughout your life, you actually KNOW that times are NOT what they used to be, even 20 years ago.

WIth that I will say that the struggles in the schools today is the battleground and will be either won or lost due to the lack of 'the truth about homosexual lifestyle being Not what God had intended.

IF given the title of ‘intolerant’, 'homophob, or any such other, I would wear it proudly for Christ, considering I once WAS on the other side and hurled such words.

Be strong!
God IS with Us!
Edwin

Hello Edwin1961,

Excellent and dynamic post. Are you affiliated with any ex-Gay groups?

pfox.org/PFOX-Large.html

This is a strong argument for the non-genetic cause of homosexuality.

 

[Lisa_N]

Tlaloc:

Then are not you too using a pseudonym of sorts?

Nope, I am not hiding behind the name of a baby sacrificing god of the Aztecs. It’s a real name.

Tlaloc:

Someone commented on similarities between posts of mine and another poster, I was offering a possible explanation.

Actually you sound quite like our old friend Ken/Zoot. As I said, if you aren’t him, you’re his twin. And I don’t think Ken/Zoot was distinguished by his grasp of the physical sciences but by his very unique style.

Tlaloc:

He may have used the same argument because it’s, well, correct. I’m hardly going to vary in my arguments about the existence of gravity from most others because the conventional argument pretty well resolves the issue. I didn’t realize he had quoted the same statistic as I had. That’s certainly much more of a coincidence than simply arguing along similar lines.

No it’s also the style of posting and the unabashed defense of homosexuality in all its variations. Same old, same old. Didn’t work then, doesn’t work now but keep on trying. It will help you justify your worldview.

Tlaloc:

Lastly it’s not a red herring, it was a correction of your (apparently still maintained) perception that AIDS is a gay disease. It reached epidemic proportions first among the homosexual community but (obviously due to the segregation of the two) would have reached its current levels among heterosexuals anyway.

No I didn’t say it was a disease of homosexuals. AIDS is a disease of the immune system. I said that homosexuals and their propensity to engage in promiscuous and anonymous sexual behavior allowed this disease to explode in this country. It is almost entirely associated with some kind of deviant behavior now. Most AIDS is the result of promiscuous sex where it is more easily transmitted through the lower GI tract due to its more delicate nature and extensive vascular system or it results from drug use (sharing of dirty needles etc). I do not think a population consisting of monogamous heterosexuals would have created an epidemic of AIDS. The saddest victims were those who contracted it through the blood supply however that form of transmission has ceased.

Tlaloc:

Nor would I try to. Not acting on every sexual act is simply self control. But castigating every sexual act except a very limited number is in fact repression…

Oh, somehow you have read my mind and decided that I have castigated every sexual act except a few? Well if castigating promiscuous and anonymous sex, sex with children, and sodomy make up the majority of sex acts in this country, well I guess you’re right. Somehow though I suspect there is far more regular sex than you might experience in your circles.

Tlaloc:

You’re mistaken then. Our society is extremely repressive sexually. An open society would discuss sex without it being either taboo or titilating. The reason you don’t see our society as repressive is becuase you are looking at the end result rather than the root cause. The root is that society represses, the result is that sex becomes cheapened. It’s relegated to tawdry commercials and trash TV. Having “I want to sleep with my stripper step-mom” on Jerry Springer isn’t the sign of an open society but a closed one. One that has become sickened.

Really? You think a very private, powerful and creative act is something that should be discussed in polite company? Why? Do you discuss your other private acts? Why MUST sex be discussed ad nauseum? What about our need to know? I really do not need to know if you have unhealthy impulses. If you feel the desire to discuss them with someone who a) cares and b) can provide helpful information, go to a psychiatrist.

Tlaloc:

A more healthy attitude says to look at the root causes rather than the symptoms.

Causes of what?

Tlaloc:

Well it has the potential to be *mutual *gratification. An expression of love or affection. Whether you like it or not really doesn’t matter except in your personal choices with your partner(s). But to deny it can be as meaningful an act between two people as vaginal sex can is simply naive.

Oh please. Really if I have not engaged in sodomy then I am naive? And you can obtain ‘mutual gratification’ having sex with an animal. I don’t know that I’d recommend it however. Again you ape Ken/Zoot, the ultimate relativist. The ONLY thing that matters is what you and your partner want. Yep, that’s a good attitude.

Tlaloc:

Like I said you seem determined to cling to your prejudiced view of AIDS regardless of the facts. I’ll stop trying to educate you on that matter now.

No, I said AIDS is a disease of the immune system. The facts are that it was spread by homosexuals and that it is much easier to contract through male homosexual activity.

Lisa N

 

[Genesis315]

1ke:

If homosexuality were someday proven to have a genetic or biological basis, it would still be no different than any other physical defect. All defects in God’s perfect Creation are a result of the fallen state of man, original sin, they are not created by God.
So, even if found to be genetic, it still could not be said that “God made me this way”. Not any more than he “made” a baby with a deformed heart or muscular dystrophy. Those conditions were caused by defective genes as well.

The homosexual person is called to chastity.

I would just like to add that just because an urge is genetic/biological doesn’t make acting on it any less of a sin. I don’t think the physical defect analogy is the best one. Instead, I like this one: all us single people have biologically rooted urges to engage in sexual activity, but we choose not to because it is a sin. Both the unmarried person and the homosexual are called to chastity for the same reason despite genetic dispositions.

 

[Tlaloc]

kmktexas:

But you left out the most important part of that article It is the homosexual ACTS of the husbands and partners that are leading to the infection rate of those heterosexual black women.

Yeah cause it only mentioned four or five other causes, but you latched onto the only one that supports your theory. Okay.

 

[Tlaloc]

Brad:

It is not genetic. It is environmental.

The data indicates genetics contribute to the issue. You can ignore it if you like but reality remains as it was.

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

You have a point? So far you have made a series of pointless allegations and loose criticisms without an argument?

Flattery will get you no where. On the other hand if you went back and read my exchanges with lisa you may come to understand how you supported my position. There’s always a chance anyway.