Honest Apostasy -- Leaving the Church

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gracepoole said:
And yet she recently penned this:
… The way that Catholic sexual morality is constructed, there is almost nobody who is able to practice it. Catholics are trained to feel deeply ashamed of this, so when they are accused of their “secret sin” it starts up a cycle of self-doubt that makes them more susceptible to authoritarian claims.
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It’s sad that she thinks that Catholic sexual morality is based on accusation, shame, and power. It is possible and preferable to understand sexual morality in a more positive way, and sexual sin in a more redemptive way.

It is also possible to see good in the current crisis. The truth is coming out, efforts are being made to heal those who were harmed, and corrective/preventive measures have been taken and are being further considered. Do not despair. There is much reason to hope.
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It’s also possible to have issues with some of the Church teachings on sex and gender, but choose to remain part of the Church, observe the teachings even if it is a sacrifice, and pray for God to either change the Church teachings or change your own mind.

Seeking “power” in the Church is stupid though. Jesus taught against that.
 
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At the moment I’m not really “considering” anything. For awhile a friend gave me a ride to an Episcopalian church. That was a wonderful, joyful experience. Only, I missed the Eucharist. Right now, the only churches close enough for me to attend are Methodist or numerous flavors of Evangelical Fundamentalist. If there were a Catholic Church close enough, or a Catholic in town who could give me a ride I would likely return, but that’s unlikely to happen. I’m just trying to hang on as best I can. In my post I just wanted to express sympathy for others in a very difficult place.
 
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\ i have been to “Anglican” ceremonies

they are nearly identical to the “Catholic Mass”; the hymns and music there are, imho, far superior

but, as you said, there is no eucharist
after the ceremony; the minister said to me " we are catholic, just english"

??
 
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if you can’t get a ride to anything but a protestant service; i guess that beats nothing

it’ll’ve been difficult to deflect the normal protestant onslaught preaching against Mother Catholic church

i wish you well

pray to the Holy Spirit
 
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I’m glad you’re not going to leave. There’s at least as much of a place for you here as there is for an old liberal like me. Indeed, I suspect that traditionalists like you are the future of the Church.

There were troubles in the Church long before Vatican II, but back then it was, for many reasons, much easier to cover things up. Only God knows if the evil has actually grown worse, or is simply more out in the open.

Rigid or not, you love God and you’re trying to be faithful, just as hopefully all of us are. In the end that’s what really matters.
 
gracepoole said:
I wonder for how many, their believe in Church teachings wasn’t extremely strong to begin with.
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You make a good point @gracepoole .

How much of the Fullness of the Truth have some Catholics embraced ?

What is the degree of committment to the Truth some Catholics have ?

Pope Benedict taught : " We are only Christians if we encounter Christ. Only in this personal relationship with Christ, only in this encounter with the Risen One do we truly become Christians.”

If some Catholics are more wedded to an institution rather than embracing the Church as the way to this encounter with God through a personal relationship with Him , then when the institution is so besmirched with scandal I don’t blame some Catholics who leave the Church .

Hopefully some day they will return with a more profound faith .
 
billsannie said:
I have a bad habit of venting on this forum, and some things I could say I’ve said before, so I’ll try to make this brief.

Right now being in the Catholic Church is a moot point for me because there’s no Catholic church close enough for me to attend. Unless it is God’s will to perform a miracle this is unlikely to ever change. That being said…

Years ago I was a very devout Catholic, and for a lay Catholic, I think fairly well catechized. I was a certified lay catechist in my archdiocese. Yet for me faith has always been a struggle. There are many reasons. It didn’t help that I lived in a Protestant state, and constantly saw my friends being fed and supported in their churches. As in so many Catholic churches, most people in my church seemed only interested in fulfilling their obligations then leaving as quickly as possible so they could be somewhere they wanted to be. An unfortunate sermon at a particularly bad time in my life nearly tipped me over the edge and gave me doubts for years. Most of the time I felt, spiritually, like those saints who live for years on nothing but the Eucharist. It was the only thing keeping me going. And, please God forgive me, sometimes it barely seemed like enough.

My point? The Catholic Church, even with truth on its side, lacks many of the things that other churches use to support their members’ faith. And yet the only areas in which it excels, the Eucharist its possession of the Fullness of Truth, are matters of faith. One often needs a strong, self-sustaining faith to stay a Catholic. Not everyone has this gift. Then faith can be eroded by mental or physical causes. To even remain a believer, some need more human support than the Church can provide. I’ve heard others ask, and I’ve asked myself, is it not better to leave the Church than to lose one’s faith entirely?

So please don’t judge those who leave too harshly. You really can’t realize how terribly, heartbreakingly difficult it can be until you’ve been there.
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?

As I said, I was there. As I also said, it’s the flouncing that I find really bothersome.
 
So this tells me that she wrote for money.

I think people who tell that their leaving something or somewhere do it because they hope that you will copy them and thereby help with their lack of confidence about doing the right thing leaving. Or they want to leave with a passing shot, hoping that others will also leave and do damage to whatever they’re leaving ie spite.

My faith is in God and His Church, full or empty I’ll take my place inside.
 
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As for this forum I’ve found your posts to be powerful and often laser like and to the point. That power is needed here and in the Church.

🙂
 
There’s a place for you here, @(name removed by moderator). 🙂 I think at times it must seem lonely for those who identify as traditional. But there are more like you than you might think. Thank you for your posts!
 
While I would call it a “lack of personal devotion/personal relationship”. If it is all in your head, where you can quote the Catechism and Scriptural apologetics with ease, yet, you do not have a living, loving, personal relationship with Christ and His Church, what did St Paul call it? A clanging gong and a tinkling cymbal.

We need to be an example of actually loving Christ, of loving our Church.
 
You belong here just like the rest of us.

Families are often of complex mix of clashing personalities and varied ideologies, but family is family.

Love of Christ is what binds us all together. ❤️
 
brian_custer said:
i admit these are dark days
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No! These are NOT dark days! In over 17,000 Catholic churches around the United States alone, people are attending daily Mass, quilting groups are plugging in the crock pots so that lunch can be served in a few hours, bible studies are perking along with the pots of coffee being made, invisible parishioners are vacuuming the nave while the sacristans wash the chalices and iron the purificators and set out the shell and oils for the baptism this afternoon, a parishioner is phoning a friend to see if they need a ride to the parish council meeting on Monday night, the parish secretary is on the phone with the supply company placing an order for more vigil candles, the lady in charge of funeral luncheons is checking prices to see if she can keep the meal to less than $3 a plate, the custodian is ordering more floor polish, the priest is finalizing his homily notes before he has to meet with the head of Family Faith Formation to discuss next month’s speaker, and after that he’s driving to another city to get ready to lead Deacon formation classes this evening, the guys from the painting company just drove up and are unloading the supplies they’ll need to finish repainting the hallway outside the church office, the organist is paging through her music book with the daughter of the man whose funeral is on Friday, one of the EMHCs is unlocking the tabernacle to fill his pyx with the 4 consecrated hosts he’ll need for his elderly father and the 3 other Catholic residents at the nursing home in town, and on and on AND ON! These are NOT dark days! Our hearts are full of love for Christ and the Catholic Church!
 
If they don’t believe, honestly don’t believe, they should leave. It is sad. And we should continue to evangelize them. But I think with ‘cishet’ ideas crowding her mind the one lady will be a tough nut to crack.

For me a big chunk of my faith is humility. The more I learn about God, the more I realize I need to be a servant and not a power broker. This is NOT easy for me and I’m not good at it. The best I can say is that I’m working on it. But it kind of rings true to me with at least the lady. She seems less concerned with the truth than with the power structures of the church.

Some of the people who have made the most impact are the most humble and tie their humility and sufferings to the cross. I think of People like St. Therese and St. Francis.
 
I believe that these are only dark days for the church in the West because we lack perspective in our modern lives of peace and comfort. Our church has survived the torture and murder of its people over millenia among just a few things, and during all that time there were clergy who acted terribly as well, yet it wasn’t a cause for mass apostasy then.

I think it’s just more of the same story that’s old as time, we start thinking we don’t need God when things are going well, faith is expected to be a thing of modern convenience, and clergy abuse or politics are convenient excuses to deny the church’s authority.
 
this place I live is this way also. Now I wonder how many have this same experience in towns all around? and thank you, I’ve never heard anyone speak of this situation. haha thought I was the only one.
now, for awhile , some people from the parish are offering rides, and largely from the priest talking about it every Sunday. Encouraging people to offer rides. It is a worthy ministry for any parish to have. Prayers and God’s Blessings
 
I think for many people the scandals in the Church simply provided a good excuse to bail. They didn’t want to be there but they needed a justification to leave.

Others I think just didn’t really understand that it’s not about the people, it’s about Jesus.
 
Gorgias said:
On the other hand, “lack of accurate catechesis”, such that the strength of their faith is misdirected (perhaps, through no fault of their own), seems realistic. 🤷‍♂️
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In my opinion, about 90% of all cases of people leaving the Church can be chalked up to just two root reasons:

Lack of proper catechesis - a shallow or nonexistent knowledge of Catholic theology, Church history, Catholic philosophy, apologetics, etc.

And

Unwillingness or inability to give up certain sins - some of the most common ones are sexual sins - people who enjoy their porn or masturbation too much, people who are unwilling to stop using artificial contraception, people with addictions to various things, etc. They have a certain sin or sins which is such a big or important part of their life that they begin to justify them and convince themselves the Church is wrong in its teachings on morality and therefore not infallible and so they abandon ship.

As I said, probably 90% or more of all people who leave the Church can be boiled down to these two reasons.

The final 10 or so percent leave for various other reasons - they found a different faith which they feel better suits them, they moved and are no longer near a Church so stop going and eventually fade away, something tragic happens and they blame God or feel abandoned or like he’s not there, and a million other reasons.
 
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