honor of women in islam

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Wait wait …if a woman is raped, she needs to provide 4 witnesses?? isn’t this kind of impossible? any source for this?
Its insane. We dont know where muslims get that policy. All we know is that it happens:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5337752.stm

*The Hudood Ordinance criminalises all sex outside marriage, so if a rape victim fails to present four male witnesses to the crime she herself could face punishment and be prosecuted for adultery. *

Such lunacies only happen in **Sister Amy’**s Muslim World.
 
Yeah.

the story that started that is sort of mind twisting too. I don’t see how it was twisted into a woman having to have 4 witnesses if she gets raped.

Aisha was accused of being - well, indiscreet. mohammed didn’t want to believe it and he got some ‘revelation’ from the moon that in the future it would require 4 men to witness it and prove that the woman gets raped. Now, in my mind if 4 pious men are just sitting there watching a woman getting raped - they are disgusting excuses for human beings because they should be helping that woman! And unless a man brings along his gang most won’t have a bunch of witnesses around to testify against him. The whole thing is made up from a mad man in lust with a teenager - by that time Aisha was probably in her early to mid teens when she had her indiscretion.

The whole thing is just too disgusting to even think about too long.
Exactly!

Vickie
 
A woman who has been raped does not need to provide any witnesses. The witnesses are necessary for proof of adultery or fornication, a consensual act. I repeat, a woman who has been raped does not need to prove it with witnesses. Her testimony alone is enough!

And before you go and show me some backwater country where they went and got stupid and started demanding witnesses from a raped woman, let me just tell you off the bat that they are not properly practicing Islam. There is a precedent of the rapist being accused, and punished, on nothing other than the testimony of the girl. Rape is not adultery, four witnesses are NOT required.

If anyone witnesses a woman being raped he should naturally try to defend her.
 
They DO NOT HAVE TO because their husbands do not ALLOW them to work by simply reminding them of the Islamic commandments making only MEN responsible for care and provision.
Never heard of that happening. 🤷 Women can work if they want to. Islam doesn’t allow men to tyrannize their wives, sheesh.
Yet that very verse in your beloved Koran asks a man to beat his wife in order to show her the severity of her behavior! Isn’t this a means of punishment too? Your Mohammad considered all Muslim women as children who were to be reprimanded, abandoned, and beaten by their husbands whenever they attempted to do something naughty. I know many parents who choose to abandon their children in a dark room while punishing them. You will never be able to understand that a man’s abandoning his wife in bed is a means of punishment (and sexual sadism) unless you look at this issue from the wife’s perspective.
I am a woman, and I always look at things from the wife’s perspective first, because that is MY perspective. Islam does NOT consider women to be like children to be punished. And the procedure is not a means of punishment, as I have explained about half a dozen times already.
I wonder when you will desist putting into my mouth things I have never stated or even assumed. You should read my post again and again to see that Khadijah was the most outstanding and wealthiest Muslim woman before Mohammad obstructed the way to a woman’s financial hegemony through verses regulating inheritance.
This is nothing but your own opinion. There were many wealthy women AFTER Khadijah, and they had the potential to become wealthy by working and earning money which they never had to spend. Whereas men can inhereit and work but they must spend. Muhammad did not in any way impede women’s financial independence, in fact only encouraged it.
You are making up statements that contradict the certain verse in the Koran:
Surah 2:282 And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if **two men **be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that **if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember. **And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned.
Mohammad’s Allah does not primarily need female witnesses! He only condescends to call women IF TWO MEN cannot be present. However, it stipulates that TWO WOMEN be accompanied by A MAN!!! The Koran apparently does not trust women when it says that TWO WOMEN will be present in addition to ONE MAN to represent the SECOND MAN. To put it into mathematics:
1) Call TWO men (no need for even one single woman!)
2) If you fail to find TWO men (which means that only ONE of them will be present)
3) Call that ONE man AND TWO women. Those TWO women will substitute for the OTHER MISSING MAN.
TWO WOMEN MAKE ONE MAN: 2=1
Where is equality? :rolleyes:
I have already responded, at length, to AgnosTheist making a similar claim.

Please read carefully–the Qur’an in that passage is referring to financial transactions–if you read the whole verse, you’d see that. Women weren’t typically familiar with the business of commercial transactions, because it was the business of men. So the Qur’an says that when a financial contract is made, call two men to witness it. And if two men aren’t available, then call a man and two women to witness it.

Now, if some time passes and a dispute arises regarding the contract, and the male witness and one female witness have died or aren’t available to testify, the remaining woman can testify and her testimony will be accepted as the most valid authority regarding the contract, because she actually witnessed it.

In some cases, only the testimony of a woman will be accepted, like matters dealing with birth and other women’s issues. The Qur’an is not saying that the testimony of a woman is insufficient. It just calls two men to witness to transactions, as it was typically the business of men. Women weren’t insufficient witnesses, as their testimony is valid in courts, women are capable of serving as judges, women have transmitted hadith. In fact, of all the narrators of hadith, no woman has EVER been accused of fabricating ahadith, while some men have been. And one of the most authoritative narrators of hadith was a woman.
 
I have a theory:

And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after
thats the original verse. perhaps muslims interpreted “women” as any person in general:

*And those who launch a charge against a chaste person, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after *

so in that case a rape victim cannot accuse a chaste man without producing 4 witnesses.

otherwise is there any other koranic verses which would contradict that interpretation? how many witnesses should an accuser produce according to koran or sharia law?

what do you think, Amy?
 
Amy,
I have a question for you, when you go to Saudi to live with your husband to be, and he decided he wants to take on a second wife, which is, by the way, allowed in Saudi, what will your reaction be?
Keep in mind what happens to a woman there,
 
Amy,
I have a question for you, when you go to Saudi to live with your husband to be, and he decided he wants to take on a second wife, which is, by the way, allowed in Saudi, what will your reaction be?
Keep in mind what happens to a woman there,
I would like to add - when that husband also decides that he doesn’t want you to work, drive a car, or basically do anything - what will you do?

I do believe that sister amy is not being totally up front with us about islam. HER husband might be allowing her to do ANYTHING - but that is one instance. If he decides to become more fundamental all that glorious freedom will become a past experience for her. She is in a free country and maybe her husband is more free. With the saudis pushing wahabbism in the mosques - that could become the past very quickly.

We see that when muslims become a majority - if one is more fundamental than another - they start attacking the more relaxed mosques.

This article shows what they even do to this very day - yesterday they tore down a moderate church - today they tore down a Christian church.

sheikyermami.com/2008/05/07/yesterday-the-zealots-destroyed-an-ahmadiyya-mosque-today-a-christian-church/#respond

islam’s basics are based on violence and that is where all of this comes from. Today it might appear to be somewhat peaceful but tomorrow is another day which things can change at the drop of a hat.
 
I have a theory:

And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after
thats the original verse. perhaps muslims interpreted “women” as any person in general:

And those who launch a charge against a chaste person, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after

so in that case a rape victim cannot accuse a chaste man without producing 4 witnesses.

otherwise is there any other koranic verses which would contradict that interpretation? how many witnesses should an accuser produce according to koran or sharia law?

what do you think, Amy?
That doesn’t really make sense, because the verse SPECIFICALLY says women. In fact, slandering a woman’s honor without proof (four witnesses) is a major MAJOR sin in Islam.
 
Amy,
I have a question for you, when you go to Saudi to live with your husband to be, and he decided he wants to take on a second wife, which is, by the way, allowed in Saudi, what will your reaction be?
Keep in mind what happens to a woman there,
I’m the second wife. 😛
 
Sister Amy,

[decided not to quote you in case you think better of posting this and decide to disappear it]

This is so interesting. I knew it already but didn’t want to bring it up.

I’d love to talk to you about this, but this particular forum might not be the best place to do so. A great many of my own ancestors were in your situation though. I have some of their journals. 🙂
 
I’m the second wife. 😛
Dear Sister,

This is a personal question. You don’t have to answer me if you mind. What happened to your husband’s first wife, and what will you do if your husband decided to take the third and fourth wife. What if he divorced you and take another as the fifth which will move forward to become the fourth when you are legally divorced?
 
I’m the second wife. 😛
And the third and fourth?
Um ok yeah. I like to see if you do remain the only wife when you do get to saudi.
So what will your reaction be if and when he does choose to take another women as his wife?
 
Never heard of that happening. 🤷 Women can work if they want to. Islam doesn’t allow men to tyrannize their wives, sheesh.
You must either be kidding or living on Mars! Muslim men are enabled by the Koran not to let their wives work because the responsibility of providing for the wife is imposed on Muslim men, not women. Therefore, a Muslim guy has the right to prevent his wife from working by simply saying that she is not required to work.
I am a woman, and I always look at things from the wife’s perspective first, because that is MY perspective. Islam does NOT consider women to be like children to be punished. And the procedure is not a means of punishment, as I have explained about half a dozen times already.
That was my mistake! I somehow forget that you are a Muslim woman, who looks at things from the Islamic perspective only. Even though you claim the opposite without evidence, we have the verse in the Koran that asks men to threaten and punish their wives in exactly the same way as parents are supposed to correct their rebellious children. I see that you do not regard beating as a means of punishment. What do you consider it then? Blessing maybe? :rolleyes:
This is nothing but your own opinion. There were many wealthy women AFTER Khadijah, and they had the potential to become wealthy by working and earning money which they never had to spend. Whereas men can inhereit and work but they must spend. Muhammad did not in any way impede women’s financial independence, in fact only encouraged it.
Right! This is why a Muslim woman is not allowed to take the equal portion of inheritance as a Muslim man. Mohammad impeded women’s financial independence by helping men get more than women. More to the point, you confess that Mohammad did not want to see wealthy women (like Khadijah) dominate their husbands (like Mohammad) when you say Muslim women were not required to spend. In Islam, it is men that give money to women for marriage, which aims to help men dominate their women through financial means.
I have already responded, at length, to AgnosTheist making a similar claim.

Please read carefully–the Qur’an in that passage is referring to financial transactions–if you read the whole verse, you’d see that. Women weren’t typically familiar with the business of commercial transactions, because it was the business of men. So the Qur’an says that when a financial contract is made, call two men to witness it. And if two men aren’t available, then call a man and two women to witness it.
Still, this explanation makes no sense because women were not called to make financial transactions, but only to witness them! Accordingly, the verse does not stipulate that only men who know something or a lot about financial contracts be summoned as witnesses, putting forward no criteria for the choice of male witnesses. Not all men are supposed to know about such contracts.
Now, if some time passes and a dispute arises regarding the contract, and the male witness and one female witness have died or aren’t available to testify, the remaining woman can testify and her testimony will be accepted as the most valid authority regarding the contract, because she actually witnessed it.
This is not stated in the Koran. However, your presumption does not suffice to defend the Koran because it leads us to the conclusion that the testimony of ONE WOMAN will be authorized ONLY when the MAN and the OTHER WOMAN pass away.The authorization of the remaining female witness is only out of necessity. As I previously stated, the Koran verse also calls TWO women as witnesses ONLY when ONE of the male witnesses of the required TWO is missing.
In some cases, only the testimony of a woman will be accepted, like matters dealing with birth and other women’s issues. The Qur’an is not saying that the testimony of a woman is insufficient. It just calls two men to witness to transactions, as it was typically the business of men. Women weren’t insufficient witnesses, as their testimony is valid in courts, women are capable of serving as judges, women have transmitted hadith. In fact, of all the narrators of hadith, no woman has EVER been accused of fabricating ahadith, while some men have been. And one of the most authoritative narrators of hadith was a woman.
Now you are back to irrelevance! I am here to discuss with you the Koran verse in Surah 2 that considers TWO women as substitute for ONE missing man. (More, you follow a false analogy when you imply that a financial transaction is inherently a male issue as birth is a female issue).

Who was that most authoritative female narrator of hadith? Why were those women (some women) considered more authoritative than men (some men)?
 
That doesn’t really make sense, because the verse SPECIFICALLY says women. In fact, slandering a woman’s honor without proof (four witnesses) is a major MAJOR sin in Islam.
Islam is supposed to be a complete system. So what are the rules (according to koran or hadiths) if the accused is a chaste man?
 
A woman who has been raped does not need to provide any witnesses. The witnesses are necessary for proof of adultery or fornication, a consensual act. I repeat, a woman who has been raped does not need to prove it with witnesses. Her testimony alone is enough!

And before you go and show me some backwater country where they went and got stupid and started demanding witnesses from a raped woman, let me just tell you off the bat that they are not properly practicing Islam. There is a precedent of the rapist being accused, and punished, on nothing other than the testimony of the girl. Rape is not adultery, four witnesses are NOT required.

If anyone witnesses a woman being raped he should naturally try to defend her.
024.004
YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
PICKTHAL: And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers -
SHAKIR: And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,

024.013
YUSUFALI: Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!
PICKTHAL: Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah.
SHAKIR: Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah.


Vickie
 
I’m the second wife. 😛
Well, polygamy is against the law and we are learning of the psychological problems associated with it and how it affects the children which is not a good thing.

I personally find it a rather disgusting thing if I think about it too long. In California we have a muslim polygamist going to court. Usually we find that the muslim male cannot even support all of these wives and kids and we end out paying for it. but that is ok for muslims since they look at us as dhimmi and that is what we are supposed to do for muslims - support them to the life style they want to become accustomed to. It is happening in Europe and Canada.

Here is the article on that case.
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020903.php

This includes not only the polygamy - but beating the wives, and gross mistreatment of the children - it includes welfare fraud. And this is ok with islam. Note the koranic passages that are cited in the article.
 
polygamy does not only discriminate against women, but its also unjust to poor & ugly muslim guys. well, at least thats survival of the fittest.
 
024.004
YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
launch a charge against woman is not rape. If you want to defile a woman, you must provide witnesses…you cannot go around speaking ill about people. I think this must be the correct interpretation of the verse…but anyway, if rape indeed requires 4 witnesses, then an official link which supports this by Quran and hadith and interpretations must be provided in order to assess if this is a teaching or a misinterpretation of some.
 
launch a charge against woman is not rape. If you want to defile a woman, you must provide witnesses…you cannot go around speaking ill about people. I think this must be the correct interpretation of the verse…but anyway, if rape indeed requires 4 witnesses, then an official link which supports this by Quran and hadith and interpretations must be provided in order to assess if this is a teaching or a misinterpretation of some.
Did you check out the whole page I quoted from? It does sound ambiguous, I know but I’ve seen it posted here and elsewhere. We’ll have to check this out further.

Vickie
 
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