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Cathoholic
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Just what I thought.
More deflection from you away from the subject.
More deflection from you away from the subject.
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Horowitz: Philippines had the harshest lockdown and most mask wearing. It didn’t work
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Cathoholic
Guest
No you don’t. (Your actions tell me you don’t).
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Cathoholic
Guest
Thbolt again focusing on me (instead of the thread) . .
To the readers:
This kind of deflection is never-ending if I allow it.
There is no evidence.
.
To the readers:
This kind of deflection is never-ending if I allow it.
There is no evidence.
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Cathoholic
Guest
Thbolt . . .
I will look at it perhaps tomorrow and try to get back to you.
If I’m wrong, I’ll just admit it.
But just want you to know, if it is not a practical study but a theoretical one, that won’t work.
If you have a link, please post it. If not I will do what I can.
Thanks and God bless.
Cathoholic
Thanks Thbolt for this post on-topic.
I will look at it perhaps tomorrow and try to get back to you.
If I’m wrong, I’ll just admit it.
But just want you to know, if it is not a practical study but a theoretical one, that won’t work.
If you have a link, please post it. If not I will do what I can.
Thanks and God bless.
Cathoholic
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jack63
Guest
@Cathoholic … at least we can agree on this. At this point, I don’t believe lock downs work , and they are destroying people’s economic lives. Of course take basic precautions and protect the elderly. Also, we don’t need to go to large concerts with thousand of other people, but shutting businesses and schools is crazy. I wonder if part of country (i.e. the US) has lost their minds. Thanks for this post! This Covid-19 is bad, but it is certainly not the Spanish flu. It is not even close. At this point it is not even as deadly as the Asian Flu in the late 1950s and Hong Kong Flu 1960s. As I’ve read they were basically the same flu…or genetically awfully similar. There weren’t any lock downs in the 1950s and 1960s.
Much of Leveticus is about quarantine management. It is not like major disease is new to humanity. Nowhere in Leveticus are societal lockdowns even remotely suggested. Certainly selective quarantines, testing, and even some level of contact tracing are suggested, but societal lock downs are not suggested.
Much of Leveticus is about quarantine management. It is not like major disease is new to humanity. Nowhere in Leveticus are societal lockdowns even remotely suggested. Certainly selective quarantines, testing, and even some level of contact tracing are suggested, but societal lock downs are not suggested.
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Cathoholic
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Thbolt . . .
First of all, don’t get me wrong. I think masks are fine in many instances.
I am not disagreeing with mask usage.
I am disagreeing with mask MANDATES without any evidence in these situations. And there is no evidence.
I looked at your study from 2013.
They MAY be interchangable. But they may not be either. (I personally bet they are interchangable.)
And if masks were such a “life-and-death” issue, politicians have no business exempting themselves do they?
D.C. Mask Mandate Exempts Lawmakers and Government Employees World News
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Cathoholic . . .
Well it is “tomorrow”.
First of all, don’t get me wrong. I think masks are fine in many instances.
I am not disagreeing with mask usage.
I am disagreeing with mask MANDATES without any evidence in these situations. And there is no evidence.
I looked at your study from 2013.
But of course corona virus (the novel type) has only been around a few months. Not since 2013. So it is impossible to take an influenza study and apply it to a corona virus study.
They MAY be interchangable. But they may not be either. (I personally bet they are interchangable.)
And if masks were such a “life-and-death” issue, politicians have no business exempting themselves do they?
None of the suggested articles below this showed anything conclusive in this sphere either.
Testing the efficacy of homemade masks: would they protect in an influenza pandemic? - PubMed
Our findings suggest that a homemade mask should only be considered as a last resort to prevent droplet transmission from infected individuals, but it would be better than no protection.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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Cathoholic
Guest
Just (again) for the record.
To the readers. I do not oppose mask usage.
Here again is what I have had to say about this . . .
D.C. Mask Mandate Exempts Lawmakers and Government Employees World News
(What I disagree with, is that they WITHHOLD HCQ use until these studies are completed based on the other evidence we DO have).
To the readers. I do not oppose mask usage.
Here again is what I have had to say about this . . .
Minor spell correction from me.
By the way. This is the standard opponents of hydroxychloroquine have asked for. A standard I have never disagreed with by the way.
(What I disagree with, is that they WITHHOLD HCQ use until these studies are completed based on the other evidence we DO have).
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Cathoholic
Guest
Thbolt . . .
That was proper usage.
That was properly controlled.
That was universally carried out (for the study).
And it was a temporary time period (admitedly all studies need a start and stop period).
The influenza virus that DID circumvent the masks MAY still have had universal spread but just taken longer. We just don’t know. In other words, it may have merely “flattened the curve” without preventing an infection.
.
Flattening the curve just changes the “when” the infections occur. Not the “if” or the severity.
From here . . .
Yes Tbolt but that was with influenza virus.
That was proper usage.
That was properly controlled.
That was universally carried out (for the study).
And it was a temporary time period (admitedly all studies need a start and stop period).
The influenza virus that DID circumvent the masks MAY still have had universal spread but just taken longer. We just don’t know. In other words, it may have merely “flattened the curve” without preventing an infection.
.
Flattening the curve just changes the “when” the infections occur. Not the “if” or the severity.
From here . . .
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Jeanne_S
Guest
It does seem as there are some who only want to argue,with no real basis re their endless attacks.Over it!
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Cathoholic
Guest
Although this does not fulfill my requests for evidence in society, (it was a lab comparison) but even here I still think this is useful information for the individual to take into consideration . . . .
there is an admission that at least
some masks DON’T WORK even in a theoretical sense and MAY cause HARM!! (“smaller particles that are more easily carried away with air.” which could theoretically negate current social distancing norms.)
amp.cnn.com
Bold mine (Notice even with CNN’s reports,
there is an admission that at least
some masks DON’T WORK even in a theoretical sense and MAY cause HARM!! (“smaller particles that are more easily carried away with air.” which could theoretically negate current social distancing norms.)
Researchers created a test to determine which masks are the least effective
Schools are reopening, amusement parks are welcoming back visitors, and outdoor dining is the new way to eat out. But despite the signs that life is returning back to normal, the coronavirus pandemic has gone nowhere.
amp.cnn.com
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
Home Depot has these masks on their shelves. Every brand is “Made in China” and not intended for “Medical Use”. Not much better than nothing. What’s worse is they’re charging $24.98 for a box of 50 when they probably cost the Chinese plant pennies to make.
Before this year, the convention about masks in Asia was that they were for the sick only, so that they wouldn’t breathe on everyone else in their vicinity.
Back to the Philippines, who does one think supplies the masks to them? Yep, they’re going to be that cheap Chinese-made quality. Probably not helping them that much.
Before this year, the convention about masks in Asia was that they were for the sick only, so that they wouldn’t breathe on everyone else in their vicinity.
Back to the Philippines, who does one think supplies the masks to them? Yep, they’re going to be that cheap Chinese-made quality. Probably not helping them that much.
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graciew
Guest
They make their own surgical in the Philippines
And as for the people in the street ( 20% live below national poverty line )these are the options:
"adopts the policy of mandatory wearing by all residents of face masks, earloop masks, indigenous, reusable or do-it-yourself masks, face shields, handkerchiefs, or such other protective equipment that can effectively lessen the transmission of COVID-19, whenever allowed to go out of their residences“
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-04/02/c_138941603.htm
Not everyone has access to disposable items. Nor are they affordable always.It isn’t that common in other places.
Anyway, that doesn’t mean homemade aren’t carefully confected . They can be very good following guidelines and comparisons from different fabrics efficiency .
And as for the people in the street ( 20% live below national poverty line )these are the options:
"adopts the policy of mandatory wearing by all residents of face masks, earloop masks, indigenous, reusable or do-it-yourself masks, face shields, handkerchiefs, or such other protective equipment that can effectively lessen the transmission of COVID-19, whenever allowed to go out of their residences“
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-04/02/c_138941603.htm
Not everyone has access to disposable items. Nor are they affordable always.It isn’t that common in other places.
Anyway, that doesn’t mean homemade aren’t carefully confected . They can be very good following guidelines and comparisons from different fabrics efficiency .
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Cathoholic
Guest
graciew . . .
We don’t know if they are effective in anything yet.
I think they likely are, but there are too many variables (like handkerchiefs) to say this with impunity.
I would not call handkerchiefs, etc. “surgical”. Just because they cover up part of a person’s face, does not necessitate effectiveness, and certainly not “surgical” (at least in terms of a surgeon’s mask which is used once, tied appropriately, fits correctly, sterile to begin with, etc.).
We don’t know if they are effective in anything yet.
I think they likely are, but there are too many variables (like handkerchiefs) to say this with impunity.
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graciew
Guest
I looked up and provided two different levels of info :
Surgical masks for medical staff which I found out they make there in the Philippines and then what the people in the street can wear and I looked up what was allowed
Two different pieces of info just to add a little about the Philippines so we learn more about them.
This span of possibilities helps facilitate their use. In my experience we go improving our home made as we learn more.
But then say I hop on to my husbands’ car and I have forgotten my mask( ok he has one for me in his car ) then something covering my mouth will do.
Not that we don’t care, we do, but it helps . At least it is something covering your mouth…
My apologies, signal is slow and posting is awkward today.
Surgical masks for medical staff which I found out they make there in the Philippines and then what the people in the street can wear and I looked up what was allowed
Two different pieces of info just to add a little about the Philippines so we learn more about them.
This span of possibilities helps facilitate their use. In my experience we go improving our home made as we learn more.
But then say I hop on to my husbands’ car and I have forgotten my mask( ok he has one for me in his car ) then something covering my mouth will do.
Not that we don’t care, we do, but it helps . At least it is something covering your mouth…
My apologies, signal is slow and posting is awkward today.
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graciew
Guest
I am not as good as you selecting paragraphs to answer, I’m sorry.
I believe I answered in my previous paragraphs that I just looked up if and what they imported from China as far as masks were concerned . Just to learn about the Philippines.
And about how and what we wear , I agree that not all all masks are equally effective. Also we go finding the better ones, the ones that protect better and fit best. We learn on the go and we are not left out in the cold in the sense that there are instructions continuously so as to improve .This has been a sort of tsunami, hasn’t it?
I believe I answered in my previous paragraphs that I just looked up if and what they imported from China as far as masks were concerned . Just to learn about the Philippines.
And about how and what we wear , I agree that not all all masks are equally effective. Also we go finding the better ones, the ones that protect better and fit best. We learn on the go and we are not left out in the cold in the sense that there are instructions continuously so as to improve .This has been a sort of tsunami, hasn’t it?
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graciew
Guest
Sounds good. “An apple a day keeps the doctor away “ doesn’t always work that well
Visit your doctor and your dentist. Don’t forget
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Cathoholic
Guest
graciew . . .
I apologise to you graciew. My fault. I get what you are saying.
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
What passes for middle class in the Philippines is still considerably below the US middle class. Minimum wage in the Philippines amounts to about US$125 per month while minimum wage in California is US$520 per 40 hour week.
https://www.philstar.com/business/2...one-worst-countries-live-minimum-wage-earners
Being a call center worker is considered a middle class job there, requiring spoken and written English literacy better than what most Filipinos have. But they make no more than about $300 to $450 per month. Now do you understand why so many US companies outsource their lowest level help desks to there?
So realistically, while the official poverty rate there is 20% to use the article you cited, most of the country lives well below what would pass for poverty level in the US which is about US$1060 per month for a single person and about US$2180 per month for a four person household.
aspe.hhs.gov
To go along with these levels of income, there is very little social safety net as we are accustomed to in the US and medical care is basic and rudimentary at best for most people.
What that means: the lowest level income brackets cannot afford to replenish their masks with any frequency. They have to eat but the government leadership killed their economy. Especially if they are in the cities. So whatever pesos they scrape up goes to their next bowl of rice. Hence their masks will get worn to the point they become nearly useless. Not to mention the “mask mouth” scenario that is becoming common. Most Filipinos cannot afford fancy dental work. If a tooth breaks or decays, they have it pulled or if they can’t even afford that, they let it fall out. Gum disease? Forget it, many can’t afford the special care for that. So it is not uncommon to find many poor to lower middle class Filipinos with moderate to severe dental issues.
All the foregoing is to say the Philippines aren’t South Korea, they aren’t Taiwan, they’re not Japan or Singapore, they should not be compared to those frontline Asian countries. Instead, they are a developing country with the issues that come from that status. My heart goes out to them.
https://www.philstar.com/business/2...one-worst-countries-live-minimum-wage-earners
Being a call center worker is considered a middle class job there, requiring spoken and written English literacy better than what most Filipinos have. But they make no more than about $300 to $450 per month. Now do you understand why so many US companies outsource their lowest level help desks to there?
So realistically, while the official poverty rate there is 20% to use the article you cited, most of the country lives well below what would pass for poverty level in the US which is about US$1060 per month for a single person and about US$2180 per month for a four person household.
2020 Poverty Guidelines
U.S. Federal Poverty Guidelines Used to Determine Financial Eligibility for Certain Federal Programs [Federal Register Notice, January 17, 2020 Full text] [Computations for the 2020 Poverty Guidelines] There are two slightly different versions of the federal poverty measure:
To go along with these levels of income, there is very little social safety net as we are accustomed to in the US and medical care is basic and rudimentary at best for most people.
What that means: the lowest level income brackets cannot afford to replenish their masks with any frequency. They have to eat but the government leadership killed their economy. Especially if they are in the cities. So whatever pesos they scrape up goes to their next bowl of rice. Hence their masks will get worn to the point they become nearly useless. Not to mention the “mask mouth” scenario that is becoming common. Most Filipinos cannot afford fancy dental work. If a tooth breaks or decays, they have it pulled or if they can’t even afford that, they let it fall out. Gum disease? Forget it, many can’t afford the special care for that. So it is not uncommon to find many poor to lower middle class Filipinos with moderate to severe dental issues.
All the foregoing is to say the Philippines aren’t South Korea, they aren’t Taiwan, they’re not Japan or Singapore, they should not be compared to those frontline Asian countries. Instead, they are a developing country with the issues that come from that status. My heart goes out to them.
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graciew
Guest
Thank you very much . It helps get to know their situation.
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