How and why to pray through Mary?

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LilyM said:
“I BELIEVE IN THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS…” :crossrc: :getholy:

Can’t get much more dogmatic than the Apostles Creed, EM. Every element of which is required belief.

Note that it says ‘the Communion of Saints’ and not just ‘the Saints’. We don’t believe in them as isolated individuals, rather we believe that we can and should be in communion (community) with them.

You can’t have real community with someone (or a group of someones) you never communicate with. 🤷
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Not praying to them for intercession is not the same as not believing in the Communion of Saints. You can have a ‘real community’ with lots of someones without asking them for things or to do things for you.

I have not seen anyone in the thread deny the Communion of Saints and the statement you quote does not say that not praying to them for intercession has some kind of ‘loss’ for the person attached.
 
LilyM said:
It is a loss that you, as a member of His body, refuse to even acknowledge half of that body and treat it as though it has nothing at all to do with you (as if that’s even possible!).
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Of course there are Christians in heaven but that fact doesn’t mean that God has taught His children through His written word to pray to Him through the Christians in heaven.

,
 
Ceil-1 said:
It’s no great loss to you E.M., Emerald?..

But how could you possibly know that?
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Through Gods written word, all Gods teaching re prayer is in His written word.
Why don’t you ask someone who has been on both sides of the fence and can give an objective opinion on the subject? Then make an educated determination?
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mans opinion = Gods Truth ??

an educated determination = Gods Truth ??
I would say, based on some of these protestations that there is a serious lack of understanding of Mary’s role in the Church. Since it has already been explained thoroughly, and summarily ignored, I won’t bother with details.
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I would say the teaching of praying to God through Mary show a lack of biblical understanding re praying to God.

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Eilish_Maura said:
Not praying to them for intercession is not the same as not believing in the Communion of Saints. You can have a ‘real community’ with lots of someones without asking them for things or to do things for you.

I have not seen anyone in the thread deny the Communion of Saints and the statement you quote does not say that not praying to them for intercession has some kind of ‘loss’ for the person attached.
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You can’t have real community with anyone (let alone communion, which implies a still deeper level of interconnection) if you never talk to 'em at all, though. You have only nominal community, and no communion at all.

And remember not denying something isn’t automatically the same as assenting to it - the Devil acknowledges the existence of Jesus (doesn’t deny Him), since he can’t not, but He doesn’t accept Him or serve Him.
 
emeraldisle said:
Of course there are Christians in heaven but that fact doesn’t mean that God has taught His children through His written word to pray to Him through the Christians in heaven.

,
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God in His written word has taught ALL Christians to pray for each other and has taught ALL Christians to ask for each other’s intercession.

Unless and until you can come up with a passage that explicitly makes an exception for the Christians who are currently alive in heaven (and on the contrary these are in many NT passages, especially in Revelation, portrayed as both hearing and seeing what goes on on Earth and praying for us) then it applies to them as well.
 
LilyM said:
God in His written word has taught ALL Christians to pray for each other and has taught ALL Christians to ask for each other’s intercession.

Unless and until you can come up with a passage that explicitly makes an exception for the Christians who are currently alive in heaven (and on the contrary these are in many NT passages, especially in Revelation, portrayed as both hearing and seeing what goes on on Earth and praying for us) then it applies to them as well.
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Lily,
emeraldisle is very selective on what he/she answers. Will never address any of the responses other than to completely ignore direct questions.
 
LilyM said:
You can’t have real community with anyone (let alone communion, which implies a still deeper level of interconnection) if you never talk to 'em at all, though. You have only nominal community, and no communion at all.

And remember not denying something isn’t automatically the same as assenting to it - the Devil acknowledges the existence of Jesus (doesn’t deny Him), since he can’t not, but He doesn’t accept Him or serve Him.
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I prefer to assume the best rather than the worst of another.

I don’t believe that one has to ask for favors and attention to have real ‘community’ never mind communion with others in this life or the next.
 
dmelosi said:
Lily,
emeraldisle is very selective on what he/she answers. Will never address any of the responses other than to completely ignore direct questions.
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Doesn’t matter whether EI answers me or not as long as he (she?) thinks about these things for her (him) self.
 
LilyM said:
God in His written word has taught ALL Christians to pray for each other and has taught ALL Christians to ask for each other’s intercession.

Unless and until you can come up with a passage that explicitly makes an exception for the Christians who are currently alive in heaven (and on the contrary these are in many NT passages, especially in Revelation, portrayed as both hearing and seeing what goes on on Earth and praying for us) then it applies to them as well.
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This looks like you are mixing issues.

One can pray for others, living and dead, without asking for the same in return.
 
dmelosi said:
It is clear in the post, the entire name is spelled out.
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It is possible that you are speaking of one person and Lily another as her response includes something closer to mine name than emerald’s (who does not use capital letters) - so I would appreciate the clarification.
 
Eilish_Maura said:
I prefer to assume the best rather than the worst of another.

I don’t believe that one has to ask for favors and attention to have real ‘community’ never mind communion with others in this life or the next.
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Praying to the saints isn’t just about asking for favours or attention, any more than praying direct to Christ or the Father is. It’s also about acknowledging and giving thanks for the merits the Saints have achieved through God’s grace, and the example they have set us, and the good that their intercession does for us (since, like Mary at Cana, they intercede whether we ask them to or not).
 
what does physical death have to do with Christian intercession? This world or the next world, all who profess faith in Chris belong to one body and Saints’ role is to intercede for us
 
Eilish_Maura said:
This looks like you are mixing issues.

One can pray for others, living and dead, without asking for the same in return.
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I’m not mixing anything, and you’re wrong.

Paul explicitly asks for prayers from those to whom he writes, many times. It’s Christ’s own infallible Apostle, through the medium of God-breathed scripture, telling us so, so if we are true followers of Christ we accept scripture’s teaching on this point as being Christ’s own, which it surely is, and consider ourselves bound to ask for prayers from living and heavenly saints in our needs.
 
LilyM said:
God in His written word has taught ALL Christians to pray for each other and has taught ALL Christians to ask for each other’s intercession.
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God in His written word has taught all Christians on earth to pray for each other and has taught Christians on earth to pray directly to God.
Unless and until you can come up with a passage that explicitly makes an exception for the Christians who are currently alive in heaven (and on the contrary these are in many NT passages, especially in Revelation, portrayed as both hearing and seeing what goes on on Earth and praying for us) then it applies to them as well.
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You are promoting the teaching that Christians are to pray to God through departed Christians so you need to prove that this teaching is biblical.

All the examples in the Bible of Christians praying for each other are earth bound Christians praying directly to God for each other. There isn’t a single example from the Bible of an earth bound Christian praying to God through a departed Christian.

.
 
emeraldisle said:
God in His written word has taught all Christians on earth to pray for each other and has taught Christians on earth to pray directly to God.
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Where in the Bible is there a single passage that refers only to Christians on earth in regard to prayer and intercession? What proof can you offer that these passages ONLY refer to Christians on earth? You’re just reading what you want to read into those passages, as you so often accuse us of doing.

Where is there a passage that explicitly EXCLUDES the Christians living in heaven from obligations to prayer or intercesion? On the contrary there are many that INCLUDE them.
 
LilyM said:
I’m not mixing anything, and you’re wrong.

Paul explicitly asks for prayers from those to whom he writes, many times. It’s Christ’s own infallible Apostle, through the medium of God-breathed scripture, telling us so, so if we are true followers of Christ we accept scripture’s teaching on this point as being Christ’s own, which it surely is, and consider ourselves bound to ask for prayers from living and heavenly saints in our needs.
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We are totally free to ask for prayers, and freer still to pray for others -but Paul’s own actions does not make me ‘wrong’.

It almost looks like you have this only counts if you are asking for stuff.
 
LilyM said:
Where in the Bible is there a single passage that refers only to Christians on earth in regard to prayer and intercession? What proof can you offer that these passages ONLY refer to Christians on earth? You’re just reading what you want to read into those passages, as you so often accuse us of doing.

Where is there a passage that explicitly EXCLUDES the Christians living in heaven from obligations to prayer or intercesion? On the contrary there are many that INCLUDE them.
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There isn’t a single example from the Bible of an earth bound Christian praying to God through a departed Christian.

All the examples in the Bible of Christians praying for each other are earth bound Christians praying directly to God for each other.

.
 
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