How Are "SDAs" Not In Harmony With The Apostles?

[bpbasilphx]

**
Does not follow from saying that Jesus was Michael the archangel. Read Dan. 10:21 and see what you think.**

The whole passage talks about Gabriel (all agree a created angel) coming to strengthen and assist Michael. Question: how does ANY created being assist Almighty God?

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
The claim was that EGW made it up; the evidence shows that isn’t so.

So? It’s still made up by men!

Christianity was founded by God. The evidence I showed showed that the claim EGW made something up and that no one else agreed with it before her was false. That’s all I had to do.

I did an extensive look at the definition of religion accumulating over 250. Your religion is your value construct of reality. Since you weren’t born before the 1800 then by your rule your religion is false. So, that doesn’t work.

This sounds like a canard! What dies your age have to do with eternal truth?

We weren’t talking about eternal truth–we werre talking about religion. You’ll find that I don’t fall for bait-and-switch.

It’s just that the heretical beliefs that have been formulated and inserted into the SDA don’t square with any other faith.

For SDA fundamental beliefs see adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html and let’s see how many are heretical.

I know of no prophet who was appointed to change Christianity so fundamentally, and at such a late hour in history.

1. EGW didn’t call herself a prophet and neither do I. Anyone who refers to her as a prophet has proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they haven’t read her works so they could know what they are talking about. 2) She didn’t “change” Christianity. She repeatedly and pointedly pointed people to Christ and to the Holy Scriptures.

 

[djconklin]

The whole passage talks about Gabriel (all agree a created angel) coming to strengthen and assist Michael.

Verses 5-14 are about Gabriel. Verse 13 explicitly states that Michael came and strengthened Gabriel, not the other way around.

 

[po18guy]

Verses 5-14 are about Gabriel. Verse 13 explicitly states that Michael came and strengthened Gabriel, not the other way around.

So, Christ is just a creation, made up out of whole cloth, if you will? That is odd, since Angels are spirit beings without bodies. And, why would an Angel minister to Jesus in the desert, if He Himself was a more powerful Angel to begin with? Makes no sense.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Christianity was founded by God.

Precisely, and God founded it upon Christ’s death. Any subsequent religions are false.

For SDA fundamental beliefs see adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html and let’s see how many are heretical.

All of them that are not in agreement with the Church God founded at the time of Christ’s death.

1. EGW didn’t call herself a prophet and neither do I. Anyone who refers to her as a prophet has proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they haven’t read her works so they could know what they are talking about.

Well, that wipes out 98% of all SDAs and 100% of all SDA colleges.

1. She didn’t “change” Christianity. She repeatedly and pointedly pointed people to Christ and to the Holy Scriptures.

She tied her adherents to the Jewish Sabbath and the Jewish dietary laws. Both changes to Christianity.

 

[po18guy]

Marsha_Adams:
Were are overlooking one historical fact: EGW received a near-fatal head injury during her youth. She only sometime later began receiving her “visions”. This raises a mountain of doubt. Either keep the Mosaic law or embrace the new and eternal covenant, but this constant switch-hitting is not consistent with how God works.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Verses 5-14 are about Gabriel. Verse 13 explicitly states that Michael came and strengthened Gabriel, not the other way around.

So, Christ is just a creation, made up out of whole cloth, if you will?

How in the world did you get that question out of my words?!?!?

Answer to your question: emphatically no.

And, why would an Angel minister to Jesus in the desert, if He Himself was a more powerful Angel to begin with?

When Jesus was in the desert He restricted himself to being human. When you fast for 40 days you get weak.

Makes no sense.

That’s because you ignored some basic facts.

 

[djconklin]

For SDA fundamental beliefs see adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

and let’s see how many are heretical.

All of them that are not in agreement with the Church God founded at the time of Christ’s death.

Which one’s would thise be?

How about #1:

1. Holy Scriptures:
   The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

Looks like the apostles would have agreed with that one. One down, 27 to go.

1. EGW didn’t call herself a prophet and neither do I. Anyone who refers to her as a prophet has proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they haven’t read her works so they could know what they are talking about.

Well, that wipes out 98% of all SDAs and 100% of all SDA colleges.

I’d love to see the statistical study that proves that claim. I won’t hold my breath though, because no such study has ever been done.

1. She didn’t “change” Christianity. She repeatedly and pointedly pointed people to Christ and to the Holy Scriptures.

She tied her adherents to the Jewish Sabbath and the Jewish dietary laws. Both changes to Christianity.

1. She didn’t tie anyone to anything.
2. The Sabbath was known before there ever was a Jew.
3. Even Noah knew of the difference between the clean and unclean animals–also before there ever was a Jew.
4. Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man–that would be on the 7th day of Creation–which the Sabbath points to.
5. Most Christians even as late as the 5th century were still keeping the Sabbath–just as they were taught by the Apostles.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Quote by DJ:

1. EGW didn’t call herself a prophet and neither do I. Anyone who refers to her as a prophet has proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they haven’t read her works so they could know what they are talking about.

Quote by Marsha:
Well, that wipes out 98% of all SDAs and 100% of all SDA colleges.

Quote by DJ:
I’d love to see the statistical study that proves that claim. I won’t hold my breath though, because no such study has ever been done.

DJ:

The SDA Church sees EGW as a prophet.
The SDA colleges and universities teach that EGW was a prophet.
The SDA Book Centers sell the following books which call EGW a prophet.

The Prophet and Her Critics
Leonard Brand and Don S. McMahon Paperback Book

Was Ellen White dependent on other health reform publications available at the time, or did God truly reveal the health principles to her as she claimed? In other words, was the health message inspired or borrowed?

Prophets are Human
Graeme Bradford Paperback Book

The work of Ellen White is once again coming under fire from critics both within and outside the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Long-standing and difficult issues about Ellen White are brought out into the open and addressed in a manner that is not only credible but congruent with Scripture.

W. C. White and Ellen G. White: The Relationship Between the Prophet and Her Son
Jerry Allen Moon Paperback Book

In Ellen White’s later years, critics charged that she was manipulated by her son, which, if true, would compromise Ellen White’s claim to divine inspiration. This book analyzes W.C. White’s relationship to his mother and her work during her lifetime.

It seems pretty evident that the SDA denomination and its members see and call EGW a prophet.

She herself said that she had no issue with people calling her a prophet.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Quote by DJ:
For SDA fundamental beliefs see adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html and let’s see how many are heretical.

Quote by Marsha
All of them that are not in agreement with the Church God founded at the time of Christ’s death.

Quote by DJ
Which one’s would thise be?

Any and all of them that disagree with the Catholic Church

 

[djconklin]

The SDA Church sees EGW as a prophet.

An organization calls her a prophet? Does Ford say they make great cars, or is it a PR person who said that? Do all the workers at Ford agree with each and every statement made by the PR people? Doubtful.

The SDA colleges and universities teach that EGW was a prophet.

Like the above.

The SDA Book Centers sell the following books which call EGW a prophet.

And all members of the church toe the line with the book center, right? If American Catholics can differ from the Pope, why can’t SDA’s do it with their organization? Are we to believe the old “all ___ are the same” line?

She herself said that she had no issue with people calling her a prophet.

That is true. I would have told her you have to be consistent about this. You don’t call yourself a prophet because people have goofy ideas of what it means to be a prophet. Just as they did then, so do people now.

Any and all of them that disagree with the Catholic Church

Does the RCC disagree with this:

1. Holy Scriptures:
   The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

Are all Cathoilics in lock-step agreement (or disagreement) with this?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Does the RCC disagree with this:

1. Holy Scriptures:
   The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God’s acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

Are all Cathoilics in lock-step agreement (or disagreement) with this?

All though this is only half of the truth, it is correct so far as it goes.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

An organization calls her a prophet? Does Ford say they make great cars, or is it a PR person who said that? Do all the workers at Ford agree with each and every statement made by the PR people? Doubtful.

Like the above.

And all members of the church toe the line with the book center, right? If American Catholics can differ from the Pope, why can’t SDA’s do it with their organization? Are we to believe the old “all ___ are the same” line?

That is true. I would have told her you have to be consistent about this. You don’t call yourself a prophet because people have goofy ideas of what it means to be a prophet. Just as they did then, so do people now.

DJ:

You said "EGW didn’t call herself a prophet and neither do I. Anyone who refers to her as a prophet has proven beyond a shadow of doubt that they haven’t read her works so they could know what they are talking about. "

If the SDA denomination teaches that EGW is a prophet and its colleges, universities and book centers teach that she is a prophet, then based on your statement the denomination hasn’t read her works and consequently doesn’t know what they are talking about. If the denomination, its schools and stores don’t know what they are talking about why do you defend them?

If you don’t defend them being an independent, why are you disputing with us? We are discussing what the established SDA denomination believes and teaches. If you believe differently than they do, please stop muddying the waters, and state plainly that on this or that or the other point you differ with the denomination.

 

[djconklin]

If the denomination, its schools and stores don’t know what they are talking about why do you defend them?

I wasn’t defending them. I’ve noted before:

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

I also explicitly noted that organizations don’t do what you say they do. People do these things. That’s not muddying the waters. The people who “muddy” things up are the one’s who act as if the church is a monolith. “Even” the RCC isn’t like that.​

All though this is only half of the truth, it is correct so far as it goes.

No evidence is presented that it is “half of the truth.”

Try this one:

1. Trinity:
   There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I wasn’t defending them. I’ve noted before:

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

I also explicitly noted that organizations don’t do what you say they do. People do these things. That’s not muddying the waters. The people who “muddy” things up are the one’s who act as if the church is a monolith. “Even” the RCC isn’t like that.

Are you saying that the SDA denomination does not call EGW a prophet?

===
No evidence is presented that it is “half of the truth.”

**Of course, it only half of the truth. It totally ignores the fact that the Bible is only part of Tradition. **

Try this one:

1. Trinity:
   There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

That is true. But it is not what the SDA pioneers taught and believed. And it is a doctrine of the Catholic Church which the SDA denomination has embraced.

 

[po18guy]

Marsha_Adams:
In any case, the first half of this thread rather fully deconstructed SDA claims to being Apostolic. It’s just not there.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I wasn’t defending them. I’ve noted before:

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible.

**Hi Dj, How are you?
I would tell you where to stick Prophet White, and it wouldn’t be to the side! That is so old and getting boring to read! :yawn: **

When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God.
**
When you “Eat the real body and drink the real blood of our lord and savior Jesus as He commanded” You will obtain Eternal life ~ John 6. You can stick the book that your denomination just wrote off to the side with prophet White! Actually the SDA just rewrote your third version of the bible, didn’t you? I knew of The Study Bible and the Clear Word Bible, What is the new version called? Was a Gospel according to EG White added? It might be a good idea, if it wasn’t thought of already! **

But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today.

**Sorry Dj,only Jesus is exalted before me! It is a “false god” thing with me. I hope you understand! I hate idols! No offense meant! I just don’t worship books, prophets or days of the week. I worship my Lord and Savior! **

** St. Ignatius writing in about 105 AD: Chapter 9. Let us live with Christ If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead. **

newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm

 

[Realcatholicgk]

In any case, the first half of this thread rather fully deconstructed SDA claims to being Apostolic. It’s just not there.

**

OMG! po18,
You actually read the entire first half of this thread?

Medic! Medic!:stretcher: Lay down, you will be OK!

We will get you medical care this time! But, never try that at home again! :tsktsk:

Prot 101 nor dj would never do that! I would say that Marsha wouldn’t except she probably wrote over half of it!

God Bless! **

 

[djconklin]

Are you saying that the SDA denomination does not call EGW a prophet?

How many times does something need to be said?!? A denomination is NOT, repeat NOT, a monolithic whole! Organizations are a legal fiction for the purposes of handling funds, owning property, etc… Otherwise, they don’t exist. So, organizations cannot say if EGW is a prophet or not. Secondly, because people have some really weird ideas of what it means to be a prophet you shouldn’t even use the term.

But it is not what the SDA pioneers taught and believed.

All of them? For how long? Why do you keep making the same logical mistakes?

Try this one:

1. Father:
   God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

 

[Marsha_Adams]

How many times does something need to be said?!? A denomination is NOT, repeat NOT, a monolithic whole! Organizations are a legal fiction for the purposes of handling funds, owning property, etc… Otherwise, they don’t exist. So, organizations cannot say if EGW is a prophet or not. Secondly, because people have some really weird ideas of what it means to be a prophet you shouldn’t even use the term.

DJ:

The Catholic Church defines dogma. If an individual Catholic choses to reject a teaching of the Church that is between him and God, (and IMHO a person who rejects the teachings of the Church is not a Catholic) but the Church does teach certain things. For example, the Church teaches no artificial contraceptives. Do some people claiming to be Catholic use artificial contraceptives? Yes, but the practices of these pseudo-catholics in no way changes the fact that the Church teaches it is wrong. Organizations do exist and do take actions. The organization known as the United States of America teaches that it is wrong to kill, steal and evade taxes. It punishes people who disobey these teachings. Are you going to suggest that the organization known as the U.S.A is a legal fiction?

The SDA denomination (although without Teaching Authority) defines beliefs for its members. It has defined that EGW is a prophet. For you to say that it has not done so is just silly. Whether you agree with the SDA denomination’s teachings is your business, but it teaches what it teaches. People convert to SDAism because they believe what it teaches.