How Are "SDAs" Not In Harmony With The Apostles?

[ralphinal]

Well; I agree with you that the Catholic Church did do this with the Sabbath - but neither I or the Bible agree with you that they had the right to do so. If your Church is so good at math - how come they can’t answer how many sexually abused children by priests is too many? If your Church has such “authority,” why do they have to advocate their Sunday doctrines through political force?

I had more respect for you than that. Instead of trying to prove that the Church had no authority (which you cannot, as Jesus CLEARLY gave the authority to the Apostles), you go on a tangent about the sex abuse thing.

In psychology, someone who keeps returning to a topic, even if it is not important, has a fixation. Why are you fixated on the sex abuse issue? Do you need help? Have you been abused? Please, if you have, get some help. If you know of someone who has, get some help.

But, for the record, we have released the data on it. According to non-Catholic research, the likelyhood of being molested by a non-Catholic minister is vastly greater. Less than 1% of all CAtholic priests were accused of anything. If you accept the rule of 4, that says for every accusation, there are 4 not reported, it is still less than 4%! This is far less than the population as a whole, far less than non-Catholic clergy.

The reason that politcal force was ever used in relation to Church teachings is because at one time, rulers saw themselves as an arm of God. IT is not because the Church did not have authority. It is because man TRUSTED GOD and HIS WORD that the CATHOLIC CHURCH was CORRECT.

Now, show me where Jesus DID NOT GIVE AUTHORITY to his followers.

 

[guanophore]

LOL; I don’t have private property!! What a trivial post!! But thanks for a good laugh! I wonder if you can even show us where scripture says that?

"Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. "Acts 4:32

What business do SDA have owning private property?

While you are at it, perhaps you could explain why the women are not kept silent in the gathering, and why they can come in without a veil!

1 Cor 11:6-7
“For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil.”

LOL; I don’t have private property!! What a trivial post!! But thanks for a good laugh! I wonder if you can even show us where scripture says that?

Really? I didn’ t know SDA’s had communes…

I understand that this is how your denomination teaches you to think; but that is just Catholic thinking - not Biblical thinking. You yourself just said that catholics do not believe in “the Bible only,” so not all Catholic, is Biblical. The proof comes right from your own mouth.

By The Bible Only: Sola Scriptura

No, actually Protestant, it was not Catholicism that is responsible for that illumination in my life. It was during my 3 years in the Protestant Seminary that I realized SS was false.

All of Catholicism is “Biblical”, to the extent that there are no contradicitons between Catholic Teaching and Scripture. The reason for his is that they both come from the same Source. The NT was written from the Sacred TEachings of the Apostles, by, for, and about Catholics. there are no contradictions. If it seems to you that there are, then you don’t understand one, the other, or possibly both.

 

[happilycatholic]

You don’t have to play games here. Just say what you need to. If you already knew the answer to your question about my signature, there was no need to play that charade at all. You are not addressing a novice here.

When you state “I know for a fact;” I can see that you don’t. I have long studied our doctrines and our history to see if such accusations as yours are true; and even with a cursory investigation; it is easy to see you have been deceived.

The first thing that you “forgot” to mention is that William Miller was NEVER a Seventh-day Adventist. In trying to continue the Protestant faith; he has said many things that actually were/are Biblically sound, hence my signature. Jesus, being a Protestant, would easily agree with my signature, in His Word.

Second, why don’t you try to cough up a specific documentation to “prove” that Ellen White started our denomination? Book and page number from official publications would be good. I will not adress accusations about that without specific references.

Oh, no, no, no, my friend. My entire post was an answer to your OP. The entire way your church started was out of harmony with the Apostles. Only I was kind enough to not say that and just give you facts.

You are the one that alluded to the erroneous belief that EGW did not found your church and that your church doesn’t hold her in high regard. They not only hold her in high regard but consider her a prophetess. Are you telling me that they dont? She was just mentioned as such in a SDA church service this weekend for a friend of mine being baptized.

And I never said a single negative thing about your church or your denomination in my post. Those are all facts that I’m not sure why you have such disdain for. I’m not here to argue your faith or mine. I simply made a few statements about the history of your church.

You my friend are very defensive. I’m not sure why but maybe you’d better look into it.

The purpose for my question was the same as the actual question; to find out if YOU knew who founded your church.

Beleive it or not some folks, such as my friend who was baptized, are not informed about their church history.

I would think you would be proud of it and not so negative. If what I posted are not facts, why don’t you enlighten us. You forgot to mention in your rant who DID found your church.

Oh, wait…one last thing… if your OP is not BAIT what is???

 

[happilycatholic]

Protestant101:

This is taken directly from your General Conference website:

1. The Gift of Prophecy:
   One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

Clearly, EGW is highly regarded in your church since it even includes her in their list of “Fundemental Beliefs” on their GC website.

Here’s another with ref. to investigative judgement:

1. Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
   There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

An the next two tell of two resurrections which is completely unbiblical, but for fairness the refs. are included:

1. Death and Resurrection:
   The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
2. Millennium and the End of Sin:
   The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

It is for these reasons and other church traditions that the SDA church seems to me to be out of harmony with the Apostles.

 

[Protestant101]

"Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. "Acts 4:32

What business do SDA have owning private property?

Why do Catholics have private property?

 

[happilycatholic]

Protestant101:

I anxiously await a response…

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101:

This is taken directly from your General Conference website:

1. The Gift of Prophecy:
   One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

Clearly, EGW is highly regarded in your church since it even includes her in their list of “Fundemental Beliefs” on their GC website.

Clearly, the Pope is highly regarded in your denomination, since your church’s official writings includes him as “His Holiness” and other innapropriate adjectives. We wouldn’t come close to calling any other human such things.

You can’t seem to accept that your own Pope actively seeks political legislation to support his Sunday; while Adventists, following the Apostles, and other Bible greats, simply look to Biblical authority to support the seventh-day “Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

 

[happilycatholic]

Clearly, the Pope is highly regarded in your denomination, since your church’s official writings includes him as “His Holiness” and other innapropriate adjectives. We wouldn’t come close to calling any other human such things.

You can’t seem to accept that your own Pope actively seeks political legislation to support his Sunday; while Adventists, following the Apostles, and other Bible greats, simply look to Biblical authority to support the seventh-day “Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

What?! You STILL have not answered either of my questions.

And what, you don’t believe that anyone on earth is holy? That’s utterly rediculous.

I’ve never argued on which day of the week one should worship. I didn’t even include that particular doctrine in the excerpts from your fundemental beliefs that I wholeheartedly challenge.

You are making up your own arguments here. Now, would you like to simply answer my questions. Or do you just not know who founded your church. Because obviously you don’t believe Miller or EGW did, so who did?

 

[happilycatholic]

Clearly, the Pope is highly regarded in your denomination, since your church’s official writings includes him as “His Holiness” and other innapropriate adjectives. We wouldn’t come close to calling any other human such things.

You can’t seem to accept that your own Pope actively seeks political legislation to support his Sunday; while Adventists, following the Apostles, and other Bible greats, simply look to Biblical authority to support the seventh-day “Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

Oh, and by the way, the pope does not prophetize.

 

[happilycatholic]

Okay, P101:

Now I know the real reason why you are here and YOU want to accuse me of playing a game? SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR FORUM!

You actually have a thread on your personal forum that states that former SDA, now catholics state that your church derives its doctrine from EGW. Well, let me tell you something, you are not dealing with shallow opinon here. I never said you form church doctrine according to your founder. I said you hold her in high regard. I was married into a SDA family and my son’s wife is former SDA. I know what hate the SDA church has for catholics. They may not put that on their pretty little pamphlets and news letters, but you know it, I know it and every catholic on this site knows it.

So if you think for one minute you can come here under the false pretense of “wanting to learn” as most of the non-catholics on here do, and then attack our beliefs and not get punched in the proverbial nose for it, you are so wrong.

You are not an innocent, but one who baits people and then attacks like a preditor.

Shame on you.

 

[Protestant101]

Okay, P101:

Now I know the real reason why you are here and YOU want to accuse me of playing a game? SHAME ON YOU AND YOUR FORUM!

You actually have a thread on your personal forum that states that former SDA, now catholics state that your church derives its doctrine from EGW. Well, let me tell you something, you are not dealing with shallow opinon here. I never said you form church doctrine according to your founder. I said you hold her in high regard. I was married into a SDA family and my son’s wife is former SDA. I know what hate the SDA church has for catholics. They may not put that on their pretty little pamphlets and news letters, but you know it, I know it and every catholic on this site knows it.

So if you think for one minute you can come here under the false pretense of “wanting to learn” as most of the non-catholics on here do, and then attack our beliefs and not get punched in the proverbial nose for it, you are so wrong.

You are not an innocent, but one who baits people and then attacks like a preditor.

Shame on you.

I freely admit that I am here to compare and contrast our respective beliefs. I make absolutely no secret, nor any apology for that.

 

[happilycatholic]

I freely admit that I am here to compare and contrast our respective beliefs. I make absolutely no secret, nor any apology for that.

What comparison or contrast in beliefs did you hope to gain from the quip about sexual abuse?

Learn this if you will, men are sinful. There will always be sin in the Church. The Church does not claim to “be Christ” therefore, we cannot be without sin.

Judas could not bring the Church down and nor can you with your intellectually lacking comments about sins within the Church.

That’s a no-brainer and way over done. Move on, maybe to something that takes a little flexing of the ‘grey matter’.

Are you ever going to tell me who founded your Church?

 

[happilycatholic]

Actually, you are wrong. I would like to see someone prove your statement. There are a lot of such claims about us, yet thats all they are. Unproven claims.

Our official beliefs do not support your falsehood.

I WANT TO KNOW WHO YOU BELIEVE FOUNDED YOUR CHURCH, please.

 

[happilycatholic]

Second, why don’t you try to cough up a specific documentation to “prove” that Ellen White started our denomination? Book and page number from official publications would be good. I will not adress accusations about that without specific references.

You wanted it in writing this comes from your official church manual taken from your General Conference website. Again EGW is mentioned in the very manual that defines the church’s beginnings:

In fulfillment of the divine plan, the Advent Movement began its prophetic journey toward the kingdom in the year 1844. Few in number, often with unhappy memories of having been cast out of their churches because they had accepted the Advent doctrine, the Movement’s pioneers walked uncertainly at first. They were sure of the doctrines they held, but unsure as to the form of organization, if any, that they should adopt. Indeed, most of them so sharply remembered how strong, well-organized church bodies had used that strength to oppose the Advent truth, that they instinctively feared any centralized order and government. Nevertheless, certain pioneer leaders saw with increasing clarity that some kind of government was imperative if good order was to prevail and the Movement grow strong. Their conviction was greatly strengthened by messages coming from the pen of Ellen G. White.

The result was that in 1860 a church name, Seventh-day Adventist, was chosen and a legal body created to hold church property. This was followed, in 1861, by the organization of our first conference, Michigan. This involved the organizing of local churches, with the members signing a church covenant, and the organizing of the various churches into one united body to constitute what is now called a local conference. Action was also taken to give identifying papers to the ministers, thus protecting the churches against impostors who might seek to prey upon them.

In 1863 the General Conference was organized, thus gathering into one organization a number of local conferences which had been created by that time. This set the Advent Movement on a coordinated, organized course.

 

[cfrancis]

For one thing, the SDAs teach that Jesus is the Archangel Michael made flesh.

The Apostles taught that Jesus is GOD made flesh.

IS this a true statement of SDA beliefs?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I WANT TO KNOW WHO YOU BELIEVE FOUNDED YOUR CHURCH, please.

adventist.org/world_church/facts_and_figures/history/index.html.en

This link takes you to the SDA General Conference history of the SDA denomination. Read it carefully and you will see that even the GC refuses to name founders of the denomination. It mentions several folks but carefully avoids the word “founder” in relation to any of them.

Just one of those things that make you go “hmmmm” I guess. The sense that this article gives is that the denomination developed in a Topsy Turvy fashion.

Marsha

 

[happilycatholic]

adventist.org/world_church/facts_and_figures/history/index.html.en

This link takes you to the SDA General Conference history of the SDA denomination. Read it carefully and you will see that even the GC refuses to name founders of the denomination. It mentions several folks but carefully avoids the word “founder” in relation to any of them.

Just one of those things that make you go “hmmmm” I guess. The sense that this article gives is that the denomination developed in a Topsy Turvy fashion.

Marsha

Thanks Marsha.

The bottom line is he’s denied it’s William Miller. He’s denied it’s EGW. I want him to tell me who it is. He’s the one who came on here asking how the SDA is out of harmony with the Apostles.

 

[happilycatholic]

P101:

I’m sorry, I’m just full of questions because I’m trying to reconcile what you’ve posted about EGW and yet you have a link to her “Steps to Christ” writings on your own website.

If you don’t hold her in high regard and you don’t trust her to form church doctrine why do you have this?

By the way, references to ani-catholicism is all over your website as well.

You might want to get rid of that link pretty quick if you want to convince any of the catholics here that SDA’s are not anti-catholic because your website certainly IS.

 

[happilycatholic]

IS this a true statement of SDA beliefs?

Yes, it is taught. It came to EGW in a vision in December of 1844

“The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty.” -Ellen G. White (1903, ms 150, SDA Commentary V, p. 1129)

Oh, and that’s definitely not in harmony with the Apostles!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Thanks Marsha.

The bottom line is he’s denied it’s William Miller. He’s denied it’s EGW. I want him to tell me who it is. He’s the one who came on here asking how the SDA is out of harmony with the Apostles.

Happily:

If the GC won’t tell who the founder is, how can Prot101?

The denomination appears to have been founded by an amorphous group of believers after the Disappointment. No single person or defined group of persons founded the denomination.

Marsha