How Are "SDAs" Not In Harmony With The Apostles?

[djconklin]

Are you going to suggest that the organization known as the U.S.A is a legal fiction?

In the sense that you keep talking about an organization teaching things, yes.

Yes, but the practices of these pseudo-catholics

That would be quite a sizeable number (if not the majorty) of US Catholics!

People convert to SDAism because they believe what it teaches.

We converted because people showed us what the Bible said.

Try this one:

1. Father:
   God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

 

[po18guy]

dkconklin, go back to the start and read the responses, if you have not already done so. They are on-topic and reveal that, sad as it is, the SDA are not in the least Apostolic.

 

[djconklin]

“It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord’s day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour’s death.” “A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath,” p. 77

 

[Realcatholicgk]

“It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord’s day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour’s death.” “A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath,” p. 77

**
Hi dj,

Isn’t a denomination a monolithic whole? Didn’t the SDA organization declare EGW a prophet? I am sure you teach that don’t you?
**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

** A little catholic humor, :christmastree1: I think it is against the rules for SDAs to laugh isn’t it? If so Attention all SDA don’t read the following it will prove How “SDAs” are Not In Harmony With The Apostles! The OP Rules!!!

A Christmas Tale **

When four of Santa’s elves got sick, the trainee elves did not produce toys as fast as the regular ones, and Santa began to feel the Pre-Christmas pressure.

Then Mrs. Claus told Santa her Mother was coming to visit, which stressed Santa even more. When he went to harness the reindeer, he found that three of them were about to give birth and two others had jumped the fence and were out, only heaven knows where.

Then when he began to load the sleigh, one of the floorboards cracked, the toy bag fell to the ground and all the toys were scattered Frustrated, Santa went in the house for a cup of apple cider and a shot of rum. When he went to the cupboard, he discovered the elves had drank all the cider and hidden the liquor.

In his frustration, he accidentally dropped the cider jug, and it broke into hundreds of little glass pieces all over the kitchen floor. He went to get the broom and found the mice had eaten all the straw off the end of the broom.

Just then the doorbell rang, and irritated Santa marched to the door, yanked it open, and there stood a little angel with a great big Christmas tree.

The angel said very cheerfully, ‘Merry Christmas, Santa. Isn’t this a lovely day? I have a beautiful tree for you Where would you like me to stick it?’

And so my friends began the tradition of the little angel on top of the Christmas tree.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

**
A Christmas Tale **

When four of Santa’s elves got sick, the trainee elves did not produce toys as fast as the regular ones, and Santa began to feel the Pre-Christmas pressure.

Real Catholic:

Toooooo Funny!!

But it does explain a lot.

Marsha

 

[guanophore]

How many times does something need to be said?!? A denomination is NOT, repeat NOT, a monolithic whole!

Truer words could never be said! This is probably the most clear testimony to the Church that Jesus founded, which is, indeed, a monolithic whole.

Organizations are a legal fiction for the purposes of handling funds, owning property, etc…

When Jesus was talking about building His Church, somehow this sentiment is absent…

Otherwise, they don't exist.  So, organizations cannot say if EGW is a prophet or not.

Maybe the fictional entity to which you belong cannot, but the Church that Jesus founded sure can.

  Secondly, because people have some really weird ideas of what it means to be a prophet you shouldn't even use the term.

Hmm. According to this logic, since some people have some really weird ideas of what a Messiah is, we should not use that term either!

All of them?  For how long? Why do you keep making the same logical mistakes?

All teachings that are not in harmony with what the Apostles taught have been wrong from their inception.

 

[djconklin]

This is probably the most clear testimony to the Church that Jesus founded, which is, indeed, a monolithic whole.

The RCC isn’t a monolithic whole and that position is contrary to Scripture:

Revelation 18:4 4*¶ And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, …

God’s people are whole; Christ’s body (the church) is whole. the denominations of man are not.

When Jesus was talking about building His Church, somehow this sentiment is absent…

Jesus wasn’t talking about institutions.

since some people have some really weird ideas of what a Messiah is,

I haven’t met any yet.

All teachings that are not in harmony with what the Apostles taught have been wrong from their inception.

If you go to Italy and look at the Leaning Tower of Pisa and look inside at the floor you’ll see an outline–underneath is a baptismal tank, for baptism by immersion. Even at that late date they were still doing it right.

“The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews,…therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council.” “The Whole Works” of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber’s Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Back to the basics!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No sacraments, no holy orders, no apostolic succession from the apostles.

Besides your belief’s were invented by “men” (Miller, Bates) started in 1831, then officially by a “Woman” E.G White in 1860. Sorry Jesus and the apostles had already established the Catholic church long before your founders invented your religious affiliations.

You have no attachments to the first century apostolic church. Just the bible the Catholic church gave your founders, and even that they have distorted the Apostolic teachings and Traditions.

 

[Matariel]

No sacraments, no holy orders, no apostolic succession from the apostles.

And they lack the Four Marks of the True Church, the Catholic Church— Catholicity, Unicity, Apostolicity, and Holiness.

Besides your belief’s were invented by “men” (Miller, Bates) started in 1831, then officially by a “Woman” E.G White in 1860. Sorry Jesus and the apostles had already established the Catholic church long before your founders invented your religious affiliations.

You have no attachments to the first century apostolic church. Just the bible the Catholic church gave your founders, and even that they have distorted the Apostolic teachings and Traditions.

Yeah, I know right? Christ already founded the 2,000-year-old Catholic Church, which He promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against, and then you have a handful of people up and start their own little rival “churches” (each disagreeing about pretty much everything) a thousand and five hundred plus years later. Sheesh. Don’t they know schism and division is condemned in the Bible? There is only one true faith, one Lord, one baptism, one body-- the holy Catholic Church.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

The RCC isn’t a monolithic whole and that position is contrary to Scripture:

Revelation 18:4 4*¶ And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, …

It is a misinterpretation of this text that equates the Church with Babylon.

God’s people are whole; Christ’s body (the church) is whole. the denominations of man are not.

This is true, the Catholic Church is the body of Christ, The SDA denomination and all other subsequent denominations invented after Jesus established His Church are man made,

Back to the basics!

There is nothing more basic than the Catholic Church established by God Himself.
/QUOTE]

 

[djconklin]

then officially by a “Woman” E.G White in 1860.

Not even close; you have been sorely misinformed–you should ask why? Is it ignorance on their part? Or, did they do it deliberately?

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

 

[djconklin]

djconklin;4517829:

The RCC isn’t a monolithic whole and that position is contrary to Scripture:

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, …

It is a misinterpretation of this text that equates the Church with Babylon.

I’m not talking about the equation. The verse shows that God doesn’t consider affliation with an (any) institution as a sure “ticket” to heaven.

Back to the basics!

There is nothing more basic than the Catholic Church established by God Himself.

Sort of correct! The Body of Christ of all believers.

 

[Matariel]

I’m not talking about the equation. The verse shows that God doesn’t consider affliation with an (any) institution as a sure “ticket” to heaven.

And Catholic Christians do not believe that it does. Catholics may go to Hell if they die in mortal sin. But the Catholic Church shall always be a witness and perserver of the True Gospel, since it is the pillar and bulwark of truth, and since Christ promised it would never fail. All the other little splintering sects are man-made, and while they hold shards of truth, they have no divine promises or protection from Christ, as sincere as their adherents may be.

 

[guanophore]

The RCC isn’t a monolithic whole and that position is contrary to Scripture:

Perhaps “monolithic” is not the best word. I will also agree that the Catholic Church is not “Roman”. The Latin Rite is only one of 23 around the world, though it is the most common here in the West. It is “whole” in the sense that there is unity of doctrine everywhere in the world. Scripture is what defines the Church as Catholic, so I can’t see how that is contrary.

Revelation 18:4  4*¶ And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, ...

God’s people are whole; Christ’s body (the church) is whole. the denominations of man are not.

I am glad we can agree about the Church, Christ’s Body, being whole. However, the scripture you have referenced here has to do with the people of God forsaking the world.

Jesus wasn't talking about institutions.

He did not separate His institution from the Church from the directions He gave for her functioning. He instituted (built) a Church. It has elements that function in the world. To that extent, it exists in the secular realm. We are in the world, though not “of” it .

If you go to Italy and look at the Leaning Tower of Pisa and look inside at the floor you’ll see an outline–underneath is a baptismal tank, for baptism by immersion. Even at that late date they were still doing it right.

Did you think that the Catholic Church did not believe and practice baptism by immersion? If you think the whole Catholic Church apostasized by that time, what difference does it make if they were baptizing “right”?

“The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews,…therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council.” “The Whole Works” of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber’s Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Back to the basics!

There has been no arguement on this point.

The decision was made to keep the Christian conventions on the Lord’s Day (first day of the week) in honor of the resurrection.

If you wish to keep the Sabbath of the Jews, as did the primitive Christians, you are free to do so. I don’t understand your complaint.

 

[po18guy]

Not even close; you have been sorely misinformed–you should ask why? Is it ignorance on their part? Or, did they do it deliberately?

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

Maybe sister White believed in eternal punishment of the wicked in hell. The SDA sure as hell does not. They teach this odd “soul annihilation” concept where the evil soul will just be deleted and no longer exist. Where is that in Jesus’ sayings? It’s not. The exact opposite is. (Matthew 24:46, 25:46)

 

[po18guy]

The RCC isn’t a monolithic whole and that position is contrary to Scripture:

Funny you should mention scripture. The SDA is contrary to scripture in too many areas to even discuss in one thread, let alone all of the forums. As to baptism, I was baptized Catholic by full, SDA-approved immersion. This is the preferred form where facilities are available. The SDA apparently condemns anyone who is so unfortunate as to have insufficient water for full immersion. If your plane crashes in the desert and all you have is bottled water, too bad! The vengeful Lord of the SDA will annihilate your soul because you didn’t follow the strict SDA guidelines. Is God’s grace so small that there is zero flexibiity in baptism? By the way, please show me from the Lutheran bible where anyone commands full immersion only baptism? Or, is this a tradition of man, based upon the combined errors of sola scriptura and eisegesis?

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
I’m not talking about the equation. The verse shows that God doesn’t consider affliation with an (any) institution as a sure “ticket” to heaven.

And Catholic Christians do not believe that it does.

I’m not talking about that.

 

[djconklin]

As to baptism, I was baptized Catholic by full, SDA-approved immersion.

That’s nice. None of my Catholic relatives were. None of the other Catholics I know were.

The SDA is contrary to scripture in too many areas to even discuss in one thread, let alone all of the forums.

There’s a list at the EGW Estate website of 53 claims that have all been dealt with–the critics reading skills weren’t too good.

Then there was the critic on another forum who claimed near the beginning of this year that EGW contradicted the Bible 75 times. I asked where’s the missing 22? We’re still waiting. About a month ago he claimed it was “much more than 75”–we’re still waiting for that proof too.

The SDA apparently condemns anyone who is so unfortunate as to have insufficient water for full immersion.

No, it does NOT. Who told you that whopper? Why did you believe them?

By the way, please show me from the Lutheran bible where anyone commands full immersion only baptism? Or, is this a tradition of man, based upon the combined errors of sola scriptura and eisegesis?

1. I don’t use the Luthren Bible–I read the Greek that Paul and the other NT writers wrote.
2. While eisegesis is an error, there’s no evidence that Sola Scriptura is in error, so your second question cannot be answered because it assumes facts that aren’t in evidence. I don’t assume.

You should ask yourself: if baptism by immersion is an error then why were they doing it as late as when the Tower of Pisa was being built?

 

[djconklin]

They teach this odd “soul annihilation” concept where the evil soul will just be deleted and no longer exist. Where is that in Jesus’ sayings? It’s not. The exact opposite is. (Matthew 24:46, 25:46)

Labeling something as “odd” is an attempt to posion the well before an honest discussion on the subject can even start. Matthew 24:46 has nothing to do with this topic.

Ezekiel 18:20 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. …

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Only the righteous will be given everlasting life. The wicked will perish. In Semitic culture when you completely burn something it is said that you burned it forever, or “everlasting” or “eternally.” Just as the smoke ascends into the heavens eternally–which it doesn’t because of gravity, but they didn’t know about that.