How are we saved?

[Randy_Carson]

Some of you are astonishing to me. Does Jesus come three times? No. How does He come for His Church in the rapture? He comes to meet us in the air, descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. Jesus is in the clouds, in the air ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17). For the critics, where does it say He touches ground?:banghead:

Peace, Golfjack

What’s the Catholic Position?

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been “amillennial” (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called “millenarianism” (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism “cannot safely be taught,” though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word “rapture” to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term “rapture” is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—“we will be caught up,” [Latin: *rapiemur]).

To learn more about the Catholic position:

The Rapture
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Dennis-

If you are Catholic, then you have some strange ideas about what the Catholic Church teaches. More importantly, here is what the Bible teaches:

I’ve seen denwiles state, “I am Catholic” on another thread. I believe he is speaking in the sense of the “universal Church” and not the Roman Catholic Church, led by Pope Benedict XVI?

 

[golfjack]

What is the water of the New Birth? What does it mean? Does it refer to being baptized in water? Does that save you? No, that is not what Jesus is talking about.

The Word of God is the water referred to in John 3:5. Let’s prove that by looking through some Scriptures.

Eph. 5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it ( the church) with the washing of water by the word.

John 6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profieth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 17:17: Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word to truth.

John 15:3: Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

1 Peter 1:23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

James 1 :18: Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

You see, one must believe what the Word of God says about man, that man is a sinner and that Christ died to save him from all sin. Then if man will confess his sins to God and turn from from sin with a whole heart and believe the Gospel, he is conforming to the Word of God:thumbsup:
Peace, Golfjack

 

[paul_c]

Po 18, Why don’t we get to the point? When I was 37, and a Catholic, I got down on my knees, asked, how do I stay out of hell. I remember saying I can’t do all things the Church tells me to do. I told Him I go to confession on Sat. and by the middle of the next week, I am in the same condition of what you guys call mortal sin. I said please help me. Well, it wasn’t too long that a Baptist friend of mine handed me a tract, which I read, and finally by faith accepted and trusted that Jesus did it all for me.

I am very passionate about telling people about Jesus. I did leave the Catholic church for many reasons. In 37 years of being a Catholic, the only main thing I learned was that God exists. I learned about a bunch of religious things from the Catholic Church, like making the sign of the cross, praying memorized prayers, genuflicting, kneeling, going to Mass, Confession, communion, the sacraments and many other things that have nothing to do with salvation.

I just thought I would tell you where I am coming from. I know there are many saved Catholics, and hope to see you after the rapture. But, there are many people sitting in church pews from all over the Christian world that are not saved. I wish you Catholic’s the best in your Ministries. God bless you.

  Peace,   Golfjack

Golfjack,
your post demonstrates your misunderstanding of the Catholic teaching on salvation. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Catholics and ex-Catholics who have the same problem. Hopefully, you can find the answers here and find your way home.

You are given sufficient grace to be saved through baptism in the name of the trinity. Once baptized, you must stay in the state of grace by doing God’s will, loving him and your neighbors. If you fail to do this and turn from God through sin, you can be reconciled through confession, if you truly are contrite, confess, repent and do penance. So the sacraments are paramount for salvation.

I suspect that what appealed to you in Baptist theology was that you would be saved simply through once announced belief in Jesus. I can see that would be very appealing to someone who admits to not being able to keep themselves from Mortal sin for even a week. But that doesn’t change the fact that we are all called to holiness. I think its great that you have accepted Jesus as your savior. But you are called to do more than that. You are called to love. And remember, the 10 commandments are calls to love. The sacraments, particularly the eucharist and reconciliation, bring God’s love to us in a real way and with that love, we can love in return.

 

[ron77nyc]

Golfjack,
your post demonstrates your misunderstanding of the Catholic teaching on salvation. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Catholics and ex-Catholics who have the same problem. Hopefully, you can find the answers here and find your way home.

You are given sufficient grace to be saved through baptism in the name of the trinity. Once baptized, you must stay in the state of grace by doing God’s will, loving him and your neighbors. If you fail to do this and turn from God through sin, you can be reconciled through confession, if you truly are contrite, confess, repent and do penance. So the sacraments are paramount for salvation.

I suspect that what appealed to you in Baptist theology was that you would be saved simply through once announced belief in Jesus. I can see that would be very appealing to someone who admits to not being able to keep themselves from Mortal sin for even a week. But that doesn’t change the fact that we are all called to holiness. I think its great that you have accepted Jesus as your savior. But you are called to do more than that. You are called to love. And remember, the 10 commandments are calls to love. The sacraments, particularly the eucharist and reconciliation, bring God’s love to us in a real way and with that love, we can love in return.

You can’t give a person faith in the risen Lord Jesus by giving them sacraments. I know many Catholics who have been through the whole process of baptism, confirmation, marriage, confession, doing good deeds, etc. and they do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Can these people be saved without faith?

 

[davidv]

You can’t give a person faith in the risen Lord Jesus by giving them sacraments.

This is correct. Faith comes only from God.

I know many Catholics who have been through the whole process of baptism, confirmation, marriage, confession, doing good deeds, etc. and they do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And their lack of belief is despite having gone through the the motions. Shame on their teachers for not having introduced them to Christ.

Can these people be saved without faith?

No. However it will be impossible to continue in salvation without grace. The sacraments being an important source of grace, are indispensilble in this regard.

 

[paul_c]

You can’t give a person faith in the risen Lord Jesus by giving them sacraments. I know many Catholics who have been through the whole process of baptism, confirmation, marriage, confession, doing good deeds, etc. and they do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Can these people be saved without faith?

You are correct. The sacraments don’t give Faith. The sacraments are to be given to demonstrate faith and to provide the necessary graces to be saved. And you are further correct that you can not be saved without faith. But lets be clear as well, the Catholic Church teaches that sacramental grace is required to be saved in all but the most extreme cases (i.e. conversion just prior to Death when there is no time to administer the sacraments or in the case of complete ignorance).

 

[tobydog98]

I think we need to remember Who does the saving. Jesus saved me so it was perfectly and completely done. The Holy Spirit had to come to me as I was a totally depraved sinner. And as such, it is impossible for me to have a part in my salvation. I show I am now His by my devotion to Him but my imperfect meager efforts in no way affect my salvation. God has me in His hand and no one-not even myself- can cause me to lose my salvation.

 

[ron77nyc]

This is correct. Faith comes only from God.

And their lack of belief is despite having gone through the the motions. Shame on their teachers for not having introduced them to Christ.

No. However it will be impossible to continue in salvation without grace. The sacraments being an important source of grace, are indispensilble in this regard.

The preaching of the word is equally important but very overlooked and trivialized in Catholic tradition. The following scriptures were at one time essential to the Catholic faith.

Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Galatians 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

 

[Mikulas_Niece]

I have read through most of the comments here and have learned a lot.
To sum up everything, I guess what we all need to do to make sure we are saved is to never give up.

Never stop. Never stop praying. Never stop asking Jesus for forgiveness. Never end our quest for salvation until that day, Jesus says, welcome home.

 

[paul_c]

I think we need to remember Who does the saving. Jesus saved me so it was perfectly and completely done. The Holy Spirit had to come to me as I was a totally depraved sinner. And as such, it is impossible for me to have a part in my salvation. I show I am now His by my devotion to Him but my imperfect meager efforts in no way affect my salvation. God has me in His hand and no one-not even myself- can cause me to lose my salvation.

On what do you base these beliefs?

 

[JohnVIII]

Prodigal Son1;5141952:

That didn’t answer the question. Where is “rapture” found in scriptures?

Please Stop!!! Where is purgatory found in the Bible? I agree the Bible doesn’t say “my beloved one day the rapture cometh.” . . .

1 Thessalonians 4:17

“Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them (n the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”

“caught up”

Strong’s Number: 726

Definition:
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
to snatch out or away

Translated Words:
KJV (13) - catch, 1; catch away, 2; catch up, 4; pluck, 2; pull, 1; take by force, 3;
NAS (14) - carry off, 1; caught, 4; snatch, 2; snatched…away, 1; snatches, 1; snatches away, 1; snatching, 1; take…away…by force, 1; take…by force, 2;

American Heritage Dictionary:

rap·ture n. 1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy. 2. Often raptures. An expression of ecstatic feeling. See Synonyms at ecstasy. 3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven. --rap·ture tr.v. rap·tured, rap·tur·ing, rap·tures. To enrapture. [Obsolete French rapture, abduction, carrying off, from rapt, carried away, from Old French rat, from Latin raptus. See RAPT.]

Close enough I think!

-JohnVIII

 

[GW]

Golf: What is the water of the New Birth? What does it mean? Does it refer to being baptized in water? Does that save you?

GW: Well, let’s see what the bible says:

St. Peter: “Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also” (1 Pet. 3:21)

Jesus: “He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved” (Mark 16:16)

St. Paul: “We are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.” (Rom 6:4)

Jesus: “Unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God…unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3,5)

St. Paul’s conversion testimony: “Why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins” (Acts 22:16)

So, yes, God instituted baptism for a reason. God doesn’t issue optional commands that don’t do anything. Instead, when God commands something, it’s because it does something for our salvation.

BTW, Baptism is the beginning of our life journey. We must continue to walk with God by obeying and worshiping Him, and that involves obeying God’s moral commandments (1 John 3:3-19) with the help of grace and confessing and forsaking our sins when we commit them (1 John 1:9-10). Our sins dirty up our souls in God’s sight, even though we are christian disciples (1 John 1:9-10), and so we must partake in the sacrament of confession.

Sin is ugly and harmful to us and others, and God is all about making His children truly holy and sinless via our journey with Him.

 

[Stephenite]

It is by Grace that we are converted ( gratia illuminationis ), and baptized into Christ, It is by Grace that that we receive the gift of Faith which is a Grace from God. Mk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned. John 3:36 He that believeth in the Son hath life everlasting: but he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 6:40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.
Besides the grace of the mind ( gratia illuminationis ), the strengthening grace of the will (generally called gratia inspirationis) plays not only the most important, but an indispensable, part, for no works( Prayer, sacraments, charity etc) of salvation are even thinkable without operations of the will.
Peace
STEPHENITE

 

[ron77nyc]

PO18, Thanks for your comments. I did attend Catholic schools for 16 years. Not one time did any of these schools tell me, and encourage me to even read or stuudy the Bible. I remember when I was a child in 1950, that the Bible was forbidden to read or study by authority of the Catholic Church. History tells us that during the reformation, the Catholic Church tried to keep the Bible out of the hands of the people, and even killed or tried to people like Wycliff and others. I think that the Church has apologized for this.

   Peace,    Golfjack

Do you have actual evidence for saying in the 50s the Bible was forbidden, never seen any such offical document

My experience is the same as Golfjack’s. We never saw a bible or even heard the word bible mentioned in Catholic school. I think many Catholics are unaware of that. The Baltimore Catechism was “the bible” that the Catholic Church used and the standard of teaching from 1885 to the 1960’s. This is what the Baltimore Catechism says about the bible.

catholicinformationcenteroninternet.org/Catechism/Part3/l12.html#RTFToC30

The Baltimore Catechism - Part 3

Q. 561. Must we ourselves seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe?
A. We ourselves need not seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe. God has appointed the Church to be our guide to salvation and we must accept its teaching us our infallible rule of faith.

Q. 562. How do we show that the Holy Scriptures alone could not be our guide to salvation and infallible rule of faith?
A. We show that the Holy Scripture alone could not be our guide to salvation and infallible rule of faith:
(1) Because all men cannot examine or understand the Holy Scripture; but all can listen to the teaching of the Church;
(2) Because the New Testament or Christian part of the Scripture was not written at the beginning of the Church’s existence, and, therefore, could not have been used as the rule of faith by the first Christians;
(3) Because there are many things in the Holy Scripture that cannot be understood without the explanation given by tradition, and hence those who take the Scripture alone for their rule of faith are constantly disputing about its meaning and what they are to believe.

 

[tobydog98]

Sola scriptura- I am a Baptist so I don’t accept, but I respect, the Magisterium. I can give supporting Scripture for my beliefs, if you would like, but I think we might part ways before that. A Catholic accepts Tradition and the teachings of the Catholic Church to be equal with Scripture whereas I, as a Protestant, base my beliefs solely on Scripture. I would be happy to share with you the Scripture that formed the beliefs I expressed in my post, just let me know if you’re interested.

 

[jdinman]

Wow! This is interesting. I just read “Assurance of Salvation?” at catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp . I am a Christian and I hope you accept me as your brother in Jesus Christ. The reason why I say that is because I am not Catholic and I do not claim a religion, denomination, etc. but I have participated/served in denominations. Right now, I play my guitar and sing in one of the praise and worship teams in a non-denominational fellowship. From 2005 to 2008, I participated/served in a baptist denomination.

I have been around people who claim, “once saved; always saved” (such as from certain baptist) and others who said, “you can fall from grace” (such as from certain pentecostals). Now I see why they cannot come together in unity because they do not accept the other scriptures. On and off thoughout the years, I have wondered about their beliefs because everytime I would read the word(s) of God; I would see both sides. I still have many questions about Catholicism. I do not know/understand everything about Catholicism but I would like to know/understand it. I guess you can consider me as a baby to Catholicism because I need to mature/know/understand it.

Do you believe that God does miracles outside the Catholic church such as casting out demons, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, opening deaf ears, etc.?

May God abundantly bless you!

Your Friend and Brother in Christ Jesus,
Jamie

Shalom! (Peace!)
JESUS CHRIST IS LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS FOREVERMORE, HALLELUJAH, AMEN!

 

[jdinman]

Hey GOLFJACK,

Interesting! Thanks for sharing!

May God abundantly bless you!

Your Friend and Brother in Christ Jesus,
Jamie

Shalom! (Peace!)
JESUS CHRIST IS LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS FOREVERMORE, HALLELUJAH, AMEN!

What is the water of the New Birth? What does it mean? Does it refer to being baptized in water? Does that save you? No, that is not what Jesus is talking about.

The Word of God is the water referred to in John 3:5. Let’s prove that by looking through some Scriptures.

Eph. 5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it ( the church) with the washing of water by the word.

John 6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profieth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 17:17: Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word to truth.

John 15:3: Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

1 Peter 1:23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

James 1 :18: Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

You see, one must believe what the Word of God says about man, that man is a sinner and that Christ died to save him from all sin. Then if man will confess his sins to God and turn from from sin with a whole heart and believe the Gospel, he is conforming to the Word of God:thumbsup:

   Peace,   Golfjack

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Sola scriptura- I am a Baptist so I don’t accept, but I respect, the Magisterium. I can give supporting Scripture for my beliefs, if you would like, but I think we might part ways before that. A Catholic accepts Tradition and the teachings of the Catholic Church to be equal with Scripture whereas I, as a Protestant, base my beliefs solely on Scripture. I would be happy to share with you the Scripture that formed the beliefs I expressed in my post, just let me know if you’re interested.

Hello Toby and welcome to CAF.

There is a discussion on sola scriptura on another thread. Please feel free to read through and share your views there. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=330043

 

[golfjack]

Hi jdi, Thanks for your response. I believe if our Catholic friends could agree in one accord on how to be saved, then some of these arguments would cease.
Peace, Golfjack