How are we saved?

[EdOsiecki]

Be careful. You will be saved only if you persevere and stay in the state of Grace. Should you apostacize, you would be condemned. You know you have eternal life, only if you die in the state of Grace.

And remember, St; James 2:24. “Faith without works is Dead”. And Paul in 1corinthians 13 " If I have faith enough to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.".

Thank you for your response. I’m familiar whit James 2:24, that’s why I said I now do good works. And 1 Cor 13:2 “love” is now a natural for me as a result of the indwelt Holy Spirit. But I’m not familiar with the other above statement. Would you please give me the Scripture reference. Thank you.

 

[EdOsiecki]

You have written quite a bit Ed, but could you explain two things for me that I got from your writing?? If you say you were saved by calling on the name of the Lord then do all the children who die before learning to talk go to hell since they cannot call on the Lord. And second, if you are saved then why do you read the bible anymore? Are you saying you will be saved BETTER if you do??

mdcpensive1

Thank you for your response. I’ll let Jesus answer your 1st question in Mark 10:14,“let the children come to me; do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these” -----Then He embraced them and blessed them Your other question 2 Tim 3:16 states, " All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work". On a personal note, before I got saved, we had a Bible sitting for 15 years on a table which I never once read. I was too busy making money in my business. In order to get my attention to read it, like in Job, God allowed me to loose everything, wife, family, realestate, business, bank accounts even my car. I rode a bus for two years. Believe me! That got my attention. I cried out to God, he heard and saved me. I now read the Bible daily. It’s the best book anyone can own. It feeds my spirit, like food does to my body. Thank you for asking.

 

[EdOsiecki]

You have written quite a bit Ed, but could you explain two things for me that I got from your writing?? If you say you were saved by calling on the name of the Lord then do all the children who die before learning to talk go to hell since they cannot call on the Lord. And second, if you are saved then why do you read the bible anymore? Are you saying you will be saved BETTER if you do??

mdcpensive1

 

[Canto]

2Th 2:15 (2:14) Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

Notice St Paul says that Tradition (the word of God) is not only the written word but the spoken word too.

word OR epistle

So there is written tradition - the Bible (the Church included books that did not contradict the oral tradition - council of Rome 382 AD)

And there is oral tradition - sacred/apostolic tradition

Catholics hold onto both written AND oral tradition

 

[Thing]

How were people saved in 33AD, 34AD, 35AD, 36AD, thats how we are ‘saved’, surely.

 

[twb1621]

Faith (of course), comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, the Bible. Ralph

Hi Ralphy, remember me? I see you are still standing with the same thought process after you ignored all the posts from the last threads containing scritpure you never responded to. Should I raise them again for you so you can reconsider those verses and perhaps now explain how your stand contradicts the Gospel? Ralphy, if you would only be honest about it you would realize you can’t explain the Gospel verses because you are wrong and scripture is not. Remember, you can have Faith but Faith alone is dead. Works as you say should come after Faith but if those works are not sincerely performed in the humbleness and charity within the heart which they must be chosen in love of God, they mean nothing and no where in the Bible does Jesus support the thought that free will is removed from those who are saved and works just flow automatically.If God removes our free will, quote that for me please.

 

[twb1621]

Thank you for your response. I’ll let Jesus answer your 1st question in Mark 10:14,“let the children come to me; do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these” -----Then He embraced them and blessed them Your other question 2 Tim 3:16 states, " All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work". On a personal note, before I got saved, we had a Bible sitting for 15 years on a table which I never once read. I was too busy making money in my business. In order to get my attention to read it, like in Job, God allowed me to loose everything, wife, family, realestate, business, bank accounts even my car. I rode a bus for two years. Believe me! That got my attention. I cried out to God, he heard and saved me. I now read the Bible daily. It’s the best book anyone can own. It feeds my spirit, like food does to my body. Thank you for asking.

It is very understandable why you began searching for a relationship with our Lord and commendable also. Some people just don’t get the big picture and would rather blame God for their losses but what it comes down to is when you choose your own path without God in your life, you choose to gamble on the outcome. Every success a person has is based on that which God allows for but not what He necessarily wishes for you. The quickest way for a person to realize they have no control over the results of the actions they choose is to loose what is of the highest value to them and it usually is based on ego, pride. But what I have placed in red above my Christian Brother, as is the case with many other verses proclaimed in the Gospel, should not be mistaken as implying it in itself is all that is needed. In fact, when that sentence was written the books of the Bible had not been accumulated or joined into the Bible nor did the writers know at that time they would become the gathered and canonized Bible.
Realizing immediately it is referred to as useful for teaching and for training must be acknowledged. When the CC gathered organized and selected those books, which they canonized, the purpose was to take that which was put into written form to serve in unison with the spoken teachings. Remember that when the Apostles referred to the Scriptures it was not the New Testament but the Old Testament that was referred to. They themselves were the only source of the New Testament. Now, regarding teaching and training; if someone were to hand you a book on a subject such as astrophysics or archeology and you had no training in such a subject how successful do you think you would be? As in any other written education form, the teaching must accompany the documents. This is not to say you haven’t arrived at a very important place in your journey, but that you haven’t obtained all that God intends and offers you yet. Without the teacher the texts are only a portion of what is to be learned. Also, consider which version of the Bible you choose for one very simple reason; if the Septugent in its form was the reference Jesus the Apostles and their successors referred to in their teaching, how can any man over a thousand years later assume the authority in removing 7 of the very books contained within its bindings?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thank you for your response. I’ll let Jesus answer your 1st question in Mark 10:14,“let the children come to me; do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these” -----Then He embraced them and blessed them Your other question 2 Tim 3:16 states, " All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work". On a personal note, before I got saved, we had a Bible sitting for 15 years on a table which I never once read. I was too busy making money in my business. In order to get my attention to read it, like in Job, God allowed me to loose everything, wife, family, realestate, business, bank accounts even my car. I rode a bus for two years. Believe me! That got my attention. I cried out to God, he heard and saved me. I now read the Bible daily. It’s the best book anyone can own. It feeds my spirit, like food does to my body. Thank you for asking.

Ed-

Just to be clear…are you saying that children below a certain age are saved?

 

[EdOsiecki]

Thank you twb 1621 for your response. Yes you are correct, If one wants to be an archeologist, it takes more than reading a book about it. It requies training. However, when readding the Bible, the born again believers have the Holy Spirit to teach them. Unless you want to become a teacher, more training should be sought. Mat.4:4 states," It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." That tells me I’m required to read the Bible. The essentials for salvation are clear enough to understan.------Yes, a correct version of the Bible is important. But for a simpleton like me, I like The New American or The Living Bible. Both contain the 7 books you speak about but I ignore them for the following reasons: The Jewish community never considered them to be canonical, they are not considered inspired, Jesus or any of the Apostles never referred to them, they are not prophetic, phrases like “thus said the Lord” or “It is written” are not contained in them, the Council of Trent in 1546 proclaimed them to be canonical which included the book of Maccabees that supports prayers for the dead, but they excluded (2)4) Esdras; cf. 7:105 which opposes prayers for the dead, Jerome disputed Augustine’s unjustified acceptance of them and refused to translate them in Latin but later did only a few books, etc.etc.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Thank you twb 1621 for your response. Yes you are correct, If one wants to be an archeologist, it takes more than reading a book about it. It requies training. However, when readding the Bible, the born again believers have the Holy Spirit to teach them. Unless you want to become a teacher, more training should be sought. Mat.4:4 states," It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." That tells me I’m required to read the Bible. The essentials for salvation are clear enough to understan.------Yes, a correct version of the Bible is important. But for a simpleton like me, I like The New American or The Living Bible. Both contain the 7 books you speak about but I ignore them for the following reasons: The Jewish community never considered them to be canonical, they are not considered inspired, Jesus or any of the Apostles never referred to them, they are not prophetic, phrases like “thus said the Lord” or “It is written” are not contained in them, the Council of Trent in 1546 proclaimed them to be canonical which included the book of Maccabees that supports prayers for the dead, but they excluded (2)4) Esdras; cf. 7:105 which opposes prayers for the dead, Jerome disputed Augustine’s unjustified acceptance of them and refused to translate them in Latin but later did only a few books, etc.etc.

Hello Ed,

How come so many born again believers, as you refer to them, have the Holy Spirit tell them different interpretations?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Heb 11:35, “…Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might find a better resurrection.” The only place in the O.T. that you will find reference to that is 2 Macc 7:1-29. The first half of Heb 11:35 is found in 1 Kings 17:23 and 2 Kings 4:36.

Heb 11:38, “They wandered in deserts and mountains…”
This is found in 1 Macc 2:28-30 and 2 Macc 5:27.

Jn 10:22, “Now there took place at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication…” The inauguration of this feast is found in 1Macc 4:36 & 52-59.

Jn 14:23, “…If anyone love Me, he will keep My word…” This is in Sir 2:18.

Rom 9:21, " is not the potter master of his clay…" Found in Wis 15:7

1Pet 1:6-7, “…gold which is tried by fire…” See Wis 3:5-6

Rom 1:20-23, “For since the creation of the world…” Found in Wis 13:1-7

Mt 7:12, Lk 6:31, “…all that you wish men to do to you, even so do you also to them…” Extension of Tob 4:15

Lk 25 35-36, “I was hungry and you gave me food…I needed clothes and you clothed me.” Based on Tob 4:16.

Rev 21:18, “And the material of its wall was jasper; but the city itself was pure gold, like pure glass.” See Tob 13 end.

Mt 13:43, “Then the just will shine forth…” Found in Wis 3:7

Mt 27:42, “…if He is the King of Israel, let Him come down now from the cross…” See Wis 2:18-20.

Lk 24:4, “…two men stood by them in dazzling raiment.” Found in 2 Macc 3:26.

Rom 11:33, “…How inscrutable are His judgments and how unsearchable are His ways.” Found in Judith 8:14.

1 Cor 10:20, “…they sacrifice to demons, not to God…” Found in Baruch 4:7.

Matt 11:25-30 and Sir 51
Romans 1:18-32 and Wis 13-14
Hebrews 1:3 and Wisdom 7:26

 

[EdOsiecki]

Thank you Randy for your response. I’m not saying anything. Jesus said that the King dom of God belongs to the children. In my opinion, It could mean to the age of accoutability. Nowhere in the New Testament, have any babies been baptized to become born again (saved) according to your understanding of John3:5 Jesus didn’t baptize any children either did John or any of the apostles, I’m sure there were plenty of babies around then, there seemed not to be any concern so Jesus must mean what He says. Thanks for asking.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Thank you for your response. I’ll let Jesus answer your 1st question in Mark 10:14,“let the children come to me; do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these” -----Then He embraced them and blessed them Your other question 2 Tim 3:16 states, " All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work". On a personal note, before I got saved, we had a Bible sitting for 15 years on a table which I never once read. I was too busy making money in my business. In order to get my attention to read it, like in Job, God allowed me to loose everything, wife, family, realestate, business, bank accounts even my car. I rode a bus for two years. Believe me! That got my attention. I cried out to God, he heard and saved me. I now read the Bible daily. It’s the best book anyone can own. It feeds my spirit, like food does to my body. Thank you for asking.

Thanks for the reply Ed, but when I read it I just couldn’t believe the things you went through. It sounded like the exact same things I went through. I was amazed at the similarity. It seems like we have much in common.

You quote the scripture about the children coming to Jesus. Do you mean they are saved by just being a child and then they are not when they get older, loosing their salvation?? Please explain this since I do not understand it.

mdcpensive1

 

[EdOsiecki]

mdcpensive 1Thank you for your response; In order to be saved, One must call upon the Lord, must believe the gospel, repent, be baptized to show repentance, then tell others to confirm their salvation. If a child understands to do all of that, he/she must do it to be saved. If a child does not understand that, as Jesus says the kingdom of God belongs to them. If it does not mean that, then you or anyone tell me what Jesus means by that Scripture verse and why is it there? Thank you for asking

 

[mdcpensive1]

mdcpensive 1Thank you for your response; In order to be saved, One must call upon the Lord, must believe the gospel, repent, be baptized to show repentance, then tell others to confirm their salvation. If a child understands to do all of that, he/she must do it to be saved. If a child does not understand that, as Jesus says the kingdom of God belongs to them. If it does not mean that, then you or anyone tell me what Jesus means by that Scripture verse and why is it there? Thank you for asking

Thanks for the reply.

So your understanding is that all children are saved before they can speak. How do they loose their salvation??? I can’t find any scripture of people loosing their salvation by growing older. Help me out.

mdcpensive1

 

[EdOsiecki]

Loose their salvation by growing older??? I don’t think their is such a Scripture. There are Scriptures of once being a disciple of Jesus then turned back John 6:66 Also 2 Pet 2:20-22 hell is their destination. Rev. 21:8

 

[mdcpensive1]

Loose their salvation by growing older??? I don’t think their is such a Scripture. There are Scriptures of once being a disciple of Jesus then turned back John 6:66 Also 2 Pet 2:20-22 hell is their destination. Rev. 21:8

Maybe you are not understanding my dilema about your statements or maybe I haven’t written my concerns well enough, so let me try again and I thank you for your patience.

You have used the scripture of Mark 10:14 to state all children are saved “Let the children come to me …for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these”. You use this scripture to assume salvation for all children. You have also said that as adults one must be able to speak to “confess with your lips” in order to be saved. It logically follows then that one must loose salvation so to be able to gain it again by speaking with their lips. I hope you see the confusion that I am having.

Upon reflection, you assume that by saying the Lord wants children to come to him that it is salvation that they already have. Can you tell me why it is salvation and not grace or faith??? I can’t find this stuff in scripture. Can you give me some background on this please.

mdcpensive1

 

[twb1621]

Thank you twb 1621 for your response.

I understand what you say however, you are discounting the teachings of those who you obtain the very gospel from and that is fact. You claim; “…However, when reading the Bible, the born again believers have the Holy Spirit to teach them. Unless you want to become a teacher, more training should be sought. Mat.4:4 states," It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." The verse says “mouth” of God, not book or written scripts of God. In this you should realize the Bible is not all that comes from the mouth of God, but a critical part just as Sacred Tradition is a critical part. You are completely discounting the fact no one at that time knew these writings would even be gathered as parts of the Bible one day so how can you attest to them to be the only teachings… The “born again” are not independently enabled by the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible and the full word of God which is self-proven by the number of divisions created from this practice. Sola Scriptura is nothing more than the prince of this earth’s way to detour those who seek the right path to God through all that God offered us. The fact is there would have been no reasoning behind the proclamation of Jesus that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church until His return or assured she would endure to the end.

ACTS CH 1; 1 1 In the first book, Theophilus, I dealt with all that Jesus did and taught 2 until the day he was taken up, after giving instructions through the holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them by many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days 2 and speaking about the kingdom of God. 4 While meeting with them, he enjoined them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for "the promise of the Father 3 about which you have heard me speak; 5 for John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the holy Spirit." 6 When they had gathered together they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going 4 to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 5 He answered them, "It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority. 8 6 But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
MATTHEW CH 28; 18 11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 **Go, therefore, ****12 and make disciples (disciples are students, not teachers) of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. ****13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” **

ACTS CH 20; 28 Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, **6 in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood. **29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. 30 And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.”
Many more verses support the Church as the body to teach the faithful.

see next post

 

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by EdOsiecki forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Thank you twb 1621 for your response.

See previous post…
Regarding the seven books you avoid;

There are various theories as to when the Jews closed their Old Testament canon. One is that the Old Testament was closed once and for all by Ezra (400 BC). This is a view that was held by some of the Fathers and many Protestants. Such a view, however, runs into a number of difficulties. For example, the second book of Ezra contains genealogies of the High Priests
continuing 150 years after the death of Ezra. In the same book is a list of the descendants of King David traced down to the sixth generation after Zerobabel, that is, down to about 300 BC. The existence of these genealogies is proof enough that the Old Testament canon remained open at least 150 years after Ezra’s death. In fact, the Old Testament canon was still in a state of flux in the time of Christ. Both the Sadducees and Samaritans, for example, accepted only the first five books of Moses as inspired and canonical. The great Jewish
historian, Josephus Flavius, provides one important hint as to why uncertainty still surrounded the Old Testament canon so late in its history:

“From the time of Artaxerxes to our own time, our history has been written down very particularly (accurately and in detail), but these books have not been considered worthy of the same credit as the
books of earlier date, because there has not been an exact succession of prophets.”²

From these last words, it is evident that Josephus required a prophet to appear and canonize the deuterocanonical books in the same way other prophets in the past had done for the protocanonical books. The question at the time of his writing was still open. Unbeknowns to Josephus, this prophet was to be Christ speaking through His Church. Nevertheless, Josephus makes it clear that the deuterocanonical writings enjoyed great credit among the Jews as sacred literature:

“But what credence we have given to all those books of our own nation is evident from our conduct; for, though so long a time has passed, no one has ever been so bold as to add anything to them whatsoever. But all Jews are instinctively led, from the moment of their birth, to believe that these books contain divine oracles and to abide by them and, if need be, gladly to die for them.”

To emphasize this point, Josephus says that in the composition of his Jewish Antiquities he used exclusively “sacred writings,” yet he frequently quotes 1 Maccabees and the deutero fragments of Esther. Furthermore, the Talmud refers to Baruch as a ‘prophetic book;’ to Wisdom as a book ‘written by Solomon;’ and to the book of Sirach in quotation. In addition**––with the exception of Wisdom, 2 Maccabees and possibly Tobit––**all the other parts of the deuterocanon were previously written in Hebrew. This points to Palestine as the place, not only whence the texts originated, but whence the Alexandrian Jews received their belief in their inspiration and divine character. This is why there are no records of any schism or controversy on the subject between the Palestinian and Alexandrian Jews. For Jews today, no final determination of the Old Testament was made until the so-called *Council of Jamnia (Javnah)*in 90 AD. The Jews in this gathering (and again in 118 AD), seeking to build a new focal point for their religious beliefs after the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 AD,
and in an attempt to counter the early Christians who quoted the Septuagint in support of the claims of Christ, only accepted those Old Testament books which (i) were written in Hebrew; (ii) conformed to the Torah; (iii) pre-dated the time of Ezra; and (iv) written in Palestine. The Jewish authorities now xenophobically considered the Septuagint “too gentile.” Only the Ethiopian Jews retained the Septuagint version and still do so today (Encyclopaedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).
Continued at;
http://www.lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page50.html
see next post

 

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by EdOsiecki forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Thank you twb 1621 for your response

see previous post.
**Regarding claims that The Deuterocanonical books and the Septuagint **
were never cited by Christ and the Apostles;

the New Testament authors quote a number of works not in any Old Testament canon. St. Jude quotes the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses, while St. Paul quotes the
Ascension of Isaiah (Heb. 11:37) and pagan authors such as Epimenides, Aratus and Menander (Acts, 1 Cor. and Titus). If quotation means canonicity, then why are none of these works included by Protestants in the canon today? Third, there are protocanonical Old Testament books accepted by Protestants that are not referred to in the New Testament either,
including the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. Should these books, in consequence, be excluded also?

The reality, however, is that there are many hundreds of quotations from, and allusions to, the Septuagint and deuterocanonical books found in the New Testament. For example, when Our Lord quoted Isaiah to condemn those whose “heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me” (St. Mark 7:6-7), He used that version of Isaiah found only in the Septuagint. Christ
also alluded to Sirach 27:6 which reads “The fruit discloses the cultivation of a tree.” In St. John 10:22-36 Our Lord and the Apostles observed the key Feast of the Dedication, or Hanukkah, which celebrates events only recorded in 1 and 2 Maccabees. Likewise, St. Paul draws from Wisdom chapters 12 and 13 in Romans 1:19-25. Again, in Hebrews 11:35 we read of women who “received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life.” The ex-Protestant convert James Akin in his tract Defending the Deuterocanonicals states:
“There are a couple of examples of women receiving back their dead by resurrection in the Protestant Old Testament. You can find Elijah raising the son of the widow of Zarepheth in 1 Kings 17, and you can
find his successor Elisha raising the son of the Shunammite woman in 2 Kings 4, but one thing you can never find––anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi––is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection. If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament––**in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.”

Altogether, there are over twenty allusions to the deuterocanonicals in the New Testament. In addition, there are another 335 verses in the deuterocanonicals that have a counterpart in the New Testament. They are
divided as follows:

St. Matthew 51, St. Mark 11, St. Luke 29, St. John 20, Acts 53, Romans 29, 1 Cor. 22,
2 Cor. 2, Galatians 3, Ephesians 8, Philippians 3, Colossians 1, 1 Thes. –7, 2 Thes. –1, 1 Timothy 6, 2 Timothy 5, Titus 2, Hebrews 24, St. James 23, 1 Peter 5, 2 Peter 4, 1 John 1, St. Jude 1, Revelation 24.

Furthermore, out of the 350 verses cited in the New Testament from the Old Testament, 300 are taken from the Septuagint. This extensive use of the Septuagint is an informal and ractical ratification of its contents by Christ and the Apostles. In doing so they embedded the Septuagint in the New Testament and made it a lasting inheritance for all Christians. Finally,
the Dead Sea Scrolls of the Jewish Essene community also extensively cite passages from the Septuagint, particularly the books of Tobit and Sirach—another sign that these books were known to Palestinian Jews. To appeal to Jewish authorities before or after Christ, in order to settle the canon definitively for Christians, is to ascribe to the custodians of a provisional Covenant a final and definitive authority for all time—which is a contradiction in terms. The Old Testament, a preparation for Christ, the Fullness of Revelation, is, by definition, closed upon the arrival of the Messiah—whether the Jews knew this or not. The Protestant appeal to
Jewish practice or belief at the time of Christ attributes an exaggerated, over-arching authority to those who could not be given such authority, something which would have to wait for the commissioning of Peter and the Apostles by Our Lord.
Continued at;
http://www.lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page54.html