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Tom317
Guest
Very true, except for the fact that the angel proclaimed to Mary that she is full of grae, one cannot be full of grace and also have sinned.
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rr1213
Guest
Ok. Based on explicit Scripture, Protestants believe Christ is the only human being not to sin. Now, according to Catholics and the Orthodox we are up to what? Four others? Any others? All these perfect people running around the world…I’m stunned again. Not as much this time, I suppose, but still…
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Tom317
Guest
You claim to speak for 800,000,000 people most of whom belong to thousands of different denominations with differing beliefs across the Protestant world? Now that is quite impressive, almost divinely so.
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Tom317
Guest
Not true, Mary is the only creature to have reached the age of reason, of side mind and body, and has never sinned.
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apophasis
Guest
A “stillborn” baby is dead, right? What does Paul say in Rom. 5:14? “Death reigned from Adam to Moses.” That is, even before any man trangressed definite commandments (the Law). Why? Because what he said in Rom. 5:12:Rom 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (i.e., "in Adam)…Yes, it was sin that caused that “stillborn” child.
No child was ever “born” in the full glory of God (except Jesus). ALL descendants of Adam fall short of God’s glory and must be justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:23-24).
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rr1213
Guest
No, since the Fall, I don’t believe that anyone other than Christ can be born, live his or her life and not sin. No one. Read the Gospels, read Romans, look around you. Some people sin much less than others, but all sin. God’s power is irrelevant to the question because God can do anything he wants…the question is what has he done? After the Fall, human nature is corrupted to the point that all sin. We have nothing showing us that God has made exceptions. Instead, we have the constant teaching of Scripture, the Word of God, that all have sinned, that there is no one who is righteous, no one.
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rr1213
Guest
She was full of grace at that point. Before that point? After bearing Christ? All it takes is one sin and you’re a sinner.
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Tom317
Guest
One cannot be full of grace (the only time ever in all history btw) and be a sinner…that is the point.
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VociMike
Guest
But my question is, what acts of sin did the baby commit before it died?
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rr1213
Guest
I’m using hyperbole obviously. Nonethess, I guarantee you that the vast majority of Protestants believe that Christ alone is without sin.
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rr1213
Guest
Not according to some of the other Catholic posters in this thread. I’d be very interesting in hearing an authoritative Catholic teaching on this point. Anything in the CCC or elsewhere that addresses whether people not in the categories you listed have lived a sinless life?
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Does the Bible ever say that Mary or John actually sinned?
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
John possesed the Holy Ghost fromt he womb.
Your assumption would say that the above verse is a lie and that the Holy Ghost left John so that John could sin.
1st you have to show that the Holy Ghost left him in Bible.
2nd you have to show where he actually sinned.
Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.
Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.
Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!
But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).
We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.
The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.
Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
John possesed the Holy Ghost fromt he womb.
Your assumption would say that the above verse is a lie and that the Holy Ghost left John so that John could sin.
1st you have to show that the Holy Ghost left him in Bible.
2nd you have to show where he actually sinned.
Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.
Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.
Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!
But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).
We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.
The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.
Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.
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Tom317
Guest
411 The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the “New Adam” who, because he “became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”, makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam. Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the “new Eve”. Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ’s victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.
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apophasis
Guest
The very act of Adam. When Adam sinned we all sinned. This is Divine revelation: “death spread to all men because ALL SINNED…” (“in Adam,” past tense). That’s just the way it is.
Through Adam’s one act of disobedience all his descendants were “made sinners.” But through Christ’s one act of righteousness all “in Him” (through faith) are “made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). It’s the power of these two Representive men (“Adams”). It’s the foundational truth of justification through faith alone.
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Tom317
Guest
I agree, I was teasing actually.
Most Protestants do not look at the fact that Mary was proclaimed to be full of grace, they think Mary was merely a vessel.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
You know how the Bible says Mary was “full of grace”? Is it possible that she was born with original sin, like the rest of us, and then the moment the angel appeared to her, she was erased of all her sins?
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Tom317
Guest
No, because to be full of grace excludes all sin and all impact of sin. Everyone in Heaven is full of grace, but they were not full of grace in this life. No baby, even if it dies, is full of Grace and will likely face some short time in Purgatory in order to be purified and made ready for a grace filled life in Heaven with God.
All believers receives various graces, yet we are never full of grace in this lifetime.
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rbarcia
Guest
No it does not. In general, do you believe that, you and I, as sinners, can receive the Holy Spirit? Do you believe every time you sin, the Holy Spirit leaves you. Many sinners received the Holy Spirit in the Bible.
No I do not. I do not have to show the Spirit leaving Him at all
This is an invention, not supported by the Bible.
But this argument would be just pulling meaning out of something that was not there. You are deriving additional doctrine that is not implied based on human logic.
I did not make this argument.
This is one man’s version of history versus another. I am not sure not all early Christians believed in Mary in this way, that some ECF writings are interpreted incorrectly by people today to imply this, and others who are considered ECF who are just wrong.
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rr1213
Guest
Unfortunately, an argument from silence proves nothing. The bible also does not explicitly say that rr1213 has sinned but, I assure you, I have. On the other hand, I am included within the “default rule”…the bible’s teaching that all have sinned. So, since Mary and John are human creations of God, they also have sinned unless you can demonstrate from Scripture that they are somehow an exception to the rule.
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Tom317
Guest
One cannot be full of grace and have sinned, that is the state we will all be in Heaven. Mary was given as single/unique gift by God. Every other person who is of an age of reason and of sound mind and body has commited personal sin–including John.
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