How can Catholics vote for Joe Biden

[bruisedreed]

I’m thinking through this argument, in all sincerity trying to educate myself on this topic. Please bear with me.

So far I haven’t been persuaded that legalization has a causal relation with an increase in rates of abortion.

I was checking online and it appears that about 61% of the population is in favor of some degree of legalization of abortion. Do you believe that these people, and the women who wish to obtain abortions, will do so at a lower pace if more restrictive laws are enacted?

Thank you so much for your patience with me.

 

[Billy76]

I would rather a president insult my heritage and say nasty sexual things about me if it meant more children won’t die. Of course his disparaging behavior should be condemned but mean words is the lesser evil than dead children.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Just as there are no complaints in the bible about providing health care for all, yet that is what you chose to call un-biblical.

There are, however, injunctions against the wealthy taking from the poor, which is what you are advocating.

Abortion has been decreasing, hard to tell exact causes. States do a lot.

The population is aging. Old women do not get pregnant. Also, more use of chemical abortifacients like the ones obama ordered Catholic charities to provide.

So far I haven’t been persuaded that legalization has a causal relation with an increase in rates of abortion.

Nor can one be sure legislation against murder has a discernible effect on death rates. The point is not the numbers, but the corruption of soul of individuals and a society that countenance and promote the butchery of innocent children.

 

[bruisedreed]

Nor can one be sure legislation against murder has a discernible effect on death rates. The point is not the numbers, but the corruption of soul of individuals and a society that countenance and promote the butchery of innocent children.

I think this is where a lot of people are stumped. If I don’t have reason to believe that voting for Biden will cause abortions, in what sense do I promote it?

 

[Victoria33]

The argument should be the whole of the picture,

No Planned Parenthood, at least as far as abortions.

No partial birth abortions. No late term.

State’s rights on abortion, all reversing Roe means.

No infanticide.

This is a Catholic forum after all.

Does all this need answering really?

 

[bruisedreed]

In my opinion, this really doesn’t answer the problem. I am firmly opposed to abortion and infanticide.

Now, how will voting for Biden promote abortion and infanticide? What do you think the people who wish to carry it out will do? Where will they go? Do you think they will not find a way? What will you have accomplished?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think Luke 17:2 addresses why we shouldn’t promote it even if we can’t tell whether it lowers the rate.

 

[bruisedreed]

I appreciate this answer very much and I will pray on it. Thank you.

My first impression is that I am not causing someone to commit abortion (“causing them to stumble”) by voting for Biden.

 

[Greenybird]

Ever major news agency says differently. You also side stepped away from your previous comment pretty quickly. I guess I’m just alarmed that you can dismiss somebody’s suffering with a sarcastic remark and then make zero attempt at understanding why somebody would take issue to someone making a comment about sexually assaulting someone. Maybe you need to further examine your own conscious because that is pretty disturbing.

Edit- and I mean this in the most genuine way possible, not trying to be rude

 

[Victoria33]

It appears voting for pro-abortion candidates enabled the act of abortion, like aiding it. Can those who are so critical of Trump claim they have never aided abortion? One may be no better.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Just as there are no complaints in the bible about providing health care for all, yet that is what you chose to call un-biblical.

There are, however, injunctions against the wealthy taking from the poor, which is what you are advocating.

I told you the easy way to attack universal health care and still you choose the hard way. Whatever…

Whatever you can say about universal health care being unbiblical would have to apply equally well to universal elementary and secondary schools, public parks, and police protection. They are all paid for by taxes. Universal health care need not be any different. Of course there are fair and unfair ways of levying taxes. The very poor do not have to pay any taxes at all. Yet they still get to use the public parks, the public schools, and benefit from police protection. Why not health care too? You said that the Democratic proposals for health care were problematic because they were not means tested. Yet you do not seem to think we need means testing for these other government benefits. The issue of means comes in on the taxation side, not the benefits side. Those with more means pay more in taxes for the same benefits. That’s how it is for public schools. That’s how it is for every other government service that is provided universally at to charge. Why can’t health care be one of those perks, like it is in most other developed nations in the world?

 

[Ridgerunner]

My first impression is that I am not causing someone to commit abortion (“causing them to stumble”) by voting for Biden.

If you kept your vote secret and somehow prevented him nonetheless from getting the honor and “bully pulpit” of the office of president, then perhaps you would have a point. But I don’t have to kill someone in order to scandalize another by approving of killing and promoting killers.

 

[Greenybird]

If money going to Planned Parenthood is an issue then we should take issue with tax money going towards the military as well. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed as collateral damage over the past 40 or 50 years. This is problematic regardless of party. I don’t think the majority of our conflicts meet the just war criteria. Regardless of party, you can guarantee that your money is going towards problematic agencies and policies. Just something to consider.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

As you probably know, the pre=existing issue is not much of an issue with a person whose employer provides health insurance…

Not so. ERISA only covers employer-sponsored health insurance. If you lose your job due to a health problem, as so many people do, you also lose your health insurance and the ERISA protections in rode in on. When forced to rely on the individual insurance market, there is nothing (other than Obamacare) preventing them from charging you premiums higher than you can afford.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Those with more means pay more in taxes for the same benefits. That’s how it is for public schools. That’s how it is for every other government service that is provided universally at to charg

Generally untrue.

If money going to Planned Parenthood is an issue then we should take issue with tax money going towards the military as well.

The Church does not teach that having a military is intrinsically evil. Promoting abortion is. Big difference.

I don’t think the majority of our conflicts meet the just war criteria.

Different question, but it may be observed that Trump has started no new wars, unlike Obama and Bush and Clinton.

ERISA only covers employer-sponsored health insurance.

Yes, which is what nearly every employment-based program is. Pre-existing MUST be covered under ERISA-qualified plans.

When forced to rely on the individual insurance market, there is nothing (other than Obamacare) preventing them from charging you premiums higher than you can afford.

Which, if true (which it isn’t in all cases) is not an argument in favor of the same level of health coverage for everyone for free, regardless of resources.

 

[Greenybird]

I think health care for all should be a goal of our society. The money is there, but the idea of insurance for all has become a horrible prospect depending on which party you belong to. There are unnecessary projects the government enters into that cost a fortune which could be used on healthcare. A healthy and happy population is a happy and healthy workforce. I’d rather my taxes go towards helping those around me.

 

[Victoria33]

Should Arkansas or South Dakota have the right to outlaw abortion if they want?

I would say yes, all overturning Roe would do is let the states handle it. But if keeping the Roe decision is so important to keep with some, alright but there are these other issues as well.

The real situation to me.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

ERISA only covers employer-sponsored health insurance.

Yes, which is what nearly every employment-based program is.

Which does you no good when you lose your job.

LeafByNiggle:

When forced to rely on the individual insurance market, there is nothing (other than Obamacare) preventing them from charging you premiums higher than you can afford.

Which, if true (which it isn’t in all cases) is not an argument in favor of the same level of health coverage for everyone for free, regardless of resources.

The argument for coverage is compassion for the sick. And seeing no good argument against coverage, why not?

 

[bruisedreed]

Again, sorry for asking so many questions. Like I said, I appreciate your and everyone else’s answers.

One of the consequences of President Trump’s “zero tolerance” border regulations is that some 500 plus children are to this day separated from their parents and do not know their whereabouts. If someone was aware of a vote from you for Trump, and was scandalized thereby into believing that this is a just governmental measure to deter illegal immigration, would you believe that you would be guilty of active scandal?

 

[pnewton]

Can those who are so critical of Trump claim they have never aided abortion?

Yes. Consider it so.